Ask A Buddhist II

[notself]

I am beginning to understand a little better. The reason I asked were craving and suffering seen as good things was coming from a Catholic perspective.

As a Catholic, while we don’t view suffering as a good thing as such, we do try to offer our sufferings to God as prayers as a means of attaining grace.

Bearing our suffering with dignity is seen to be a good thing in this sense.

When you speak of suffering, do you mean physical suffering as in pain and discomfort or do you mean the type of mental suffering that comes from wanting something one cannot have?

 

[AdamP88]

When you speak of suffering, do you mean physical suffering as in pain and discomfort or do you mean the type of mental suffering that comes from wanting something one cannot have?

Any type of suffering that you can experience in life.

 

[notself]

Any type of suffering that you can experience in life.

So if someone craves riches and yet is middle class, the suffering/stress from that craving can be offered as a prayer?

Assuming this is correct, a Buddhist would try to eliminate the stress/suffering while still working to improve his or her financial condition. Ideally there would be no suffering involved.

 

[AdamP88]

So if someone craves riches and yet is middle class, the suffering/stress from that craving can be offered as a prayer?

Assuming this is correct, a Buddhist would try to eliminate the stress/suffering while still working to improve his or her financial condition. Ideally there would be no suffering involved.

In a sense, yes they can. It depends on the nature of the “craving”. If it comes from a purely selfish desire to be wealthy, it could not really be offered, as that type of craving is merely a desire for material riches.

However, if this was stress endured while working to improve their condition, it could indeed be offered as a prayer. Even the suffering of being impoverished can be offered.

In fact, the poor are held up among catholics and the virtue of poverty and detachment from material possessions is something which is practiced among the religious men and women.

 

[notself]

I’ver read a biography of St. Francis of Assisi and his instructions to the monks and nuns who followed him are very similar to the vinaya. St. Francis said, “Grant me the treasure of sublime poverty: permit the distinctive sign of our order to be that it does not possess anything of its own beneath the sun, for the glory of your name, and that it have no other patrimony than begging.”
brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/f/francis_of_assisi.html#QUOOaZkdPre4LhSk.99

Monastics of the Theravada tradition own nothing and depend on laypeople for food and clothing. The term for a monk or nun means beggar.

 

[Lodro]

The earliest Mahayana texts are dated around the beginning of the common era, don’t use the word Mahayana, and are the same as Theravada texts. The earliest stone inscription that can be identified as distinctly Mahayana was carved around 180 CE.

Do these include the prajnaparamita texts or any of those that took place at Vulture Peak Mountain? Or any that take a sort of more general view on emptiness? Could you link to some examples of this overlap? I’m basically wondering to what extent the sutrayana texts on emptiness are part of that cannon.

 

[AdamP88]

Indeed, that would be one huge similarity. The importance of poverty in both Catholicism and Buddhism.

I myself am entering the Dominican Order and will be learning to live poverty in a community of religious brothers.

 

[Vouthon]

I’ver read a biography of St. Francis of Assisi and his instructions to the monks and nuns who followed him are very similar to the vinaya. St. Francis said, “Grant me the treasure of sublime poverty: permit the distinctive sign of our order to be that it does not possess anything of its own beneath the sun, for the glory of your name, and that it have no other patrimony than begging.”
brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/f/francis_of_assisi.html#QUOOaZkdPre4LhSk.99

Monastics of the Theravada tradition own nothing and depend on laypeople for food and clothing. The term for a monk or nun means beggar.

“…God does not dwell in a heart that’s confined, and a heart is only as big as the love it holds: in the great heart of Poverty God has room to dwell…Poverty, deepest wisdom, you are slave to nothing, And in your detachment you possess all things…O Love of Holy Poverty! Thou Kingdom of Tranquility. Poverty whose path is safe and clear, hath no griefs, nor rancour, nor of robber hands hath any fear, tempests cannot trouble Poverty. She [poverty] can die in perfect peace: maketh neither bond, nor lease, leaves the world behind, and lies at ease, and around her strife can never be…”

- Blessed Jacopone Da Todi (c.1230-1306), Catholic mystic & Franciscan

Jacopone was a dedicated follower of Saint Francis, as well as a great mystic in his own right. It is in his Lauds that the Franciscan ideal of voluntary poverty for the sake of the Kingdom, attained its literary, poetic expression. The spiritual value of poverty is frequently the theme of his poetry.

BTW which biography of Saint Francis did you read? Was it a modern one?

My favourite contemporary account is the official Franciscan biography written by Saint Bonaventure, a Doctor of the Church in the 1200s.

 

[Lodro]

…we do try to offer our sufferings to God as prayers as a means of attaining grace.

Bearing our suffering with dignity is seen to be a good thing in this sense.

That seems to be related – in that by offering up those sufferings, you’re also relieving yourself of your worry and anxiety about them. Is that sort of the experience you’re point to?

By the way, in the Vajrayana tradition we do make offerings to deities (albeit “imaginary”) that include our attachments as well as all sorts of material offerings, spiritual accomplishment, etc…and there is a quality of purifying suffering; not necessarily by actually relieving the sensation, but more by altering our relationship with it.

 

[patrick457]

Patrick,

Would the Gṛhasūtras ceremony which involves the symbolic “laying” of the Vedas on a newborn baby have been performed around 500-400 BCE?

Would this blessing have been done on the baby Siddhattha by a Brahman priest?

Again, it’s one of those works where we aren’t sure about the dating. AFAIK it would seem though that the gṛhyasūtras are roughly contemporaneous with the four dharmasūtras (Apastamba, Gautama, Baudhāyana, Vāsiṣṭha) and the śrautasūtras, which would give us a date of somewhere around 500-300 BC, perhaps just before or contemporaneous with the grammarian Pāṇini (who is the bridge between Vedic Sanskrit and Classical Sanskrit).

And here is the text in full (Śāṇkhāyana Gṛhyasūtra 1.24):

1 Now the Gâtakarman (i.e. ceremony for the new-born child).
2 Let (the father) breathe three times on the new-born child and then draw in his breath with the words, ‘Draw in your breath with the Ri**k, breathe within with the Yagus, breathe forth with the Sâman.’
3. Let him mix together butter and honey, milk curds and water, or grind together rice and barley, and give it to eat (to the child) thrice from gold (i.e. from a golden vessel or with a golden spoon),
4. With (the verse), ‘I administer to thee honey food for the festival, the wisdom (“veda”) raised by Savitar the bountiful; long-living, protected by the gods, live a hundred autumns in this world, N.N.!’(with these words) he gives him a name beginning with a sonant, with a semivowel in it, consisting of two syllables, or of four syllables, or also of six syllables; he should take a krit (suffix), not a taddhita.
5. That (name only) his father and his mother should know.
6. On the tenth day a name for common use, which is pleasing to the Brâhmanas.
7. Let him pulverise black and white and red hairs of a black ox, intermix (that powder) with those four substances, and give it to eat (to the child) four times: such (is the opinion of) Mân**dûkeya.
8 If he likes (let him do so) with the words, 'Bhûh! The Rig-veda I lay into thee, N.N., svâhâ!
'Bhuvah! The Yagur-veda I lay into thee, N.N., svâhâ!
'Svah! The Sâma-veda I lay into thee, N.N., svâhâ!
‘Bhûr bhuvah svah! Vâkovâkya (colloquies), Itihâsa, and Purâna—Om! All the Vedas I lay into thee, N.N., svâhâ!’
9. The production of intelligence (is performed) by thrice saying in his right ear, ‘Speech!’
10. And let him recite over (the child the following text), ‘Speech, the goddess, united with mind, together with breath, the child, uttered by Indra—may she rejoice in thee, the goddess, for the sake of joy, the great one, the sweet sounding, the music, full of music, the flowing, self-produced.’
11. Let him tie a piece of gold to a hempen string,
12 And bind it to (the child’s) right hand until (the mother) gets up (from childbed).
13. After the tenth day let him give it to the Brâhmanas,
14. Or keep it himself.

 

[notself]

Indeed, that would be one huge similarity. The importance of poverty in both Catholicism and Buddhism.

I myself am entering the Dominican Order and will be learning to live poverty in a community of religious brothers.

When will you be entering the order?

Laypeople give computers and Internet connections to Buddhist monastics so they post quite frequently on Buddhist forums and some have blogs. I hope you will be able to continue your postings.

 

[Vouthon]

The Fransican mystics, including the expansive early hagiographical literature on Saint Francis himself, personifies “poverty” as a highly beautiful and infinite divine female figure called “Lady Poverty” - a metaphor for God in feminine form - which became the object of spiritual erotic desire for the Franciscans. They earned the name, “The hot-headed lovers of Lady Poverty” and they believed themselves to be “married” to Lady Poverty through the Franciscan vows.

Franciscans thus used the language of courtly love poetry to express their matrimonial surrender to and pining after ‘Lady Poverty’, and believed themselves to be her knights.

Thus poverty - a word which often brings “negative” thoughts - took on a positive, even almost sexually desirable, veneer for the Franciscans.

As Jacopone wrote:

“…Lady Poverty, burning with love, Vast is your dominion!..This heaven is founded on no-thing, where purified love lives in Truth…Poverty is having nothing, wanting nothing, and possessing all things in the spirit of freedom…Wisdom, that lives and breathes without desire; Wisdom, freed from thought’s consuming fire…Lo I live! yet not my self…Language cannot tell its mystery…Poverty has nothing in her hand, Nothing craves, in sea, in sky, or land; hath the Universe at her command! Dwelling in the heart of liberty…We plead with Our Lady now…To grant us love without stain, Vision unveiled and plain, of Truth, supreme and apart; and in the Noughting of our own heart, in uttermost Poverty…”

- Blessed Jacopone Da Todi (c.1230-1306), Catholic mystic & Franciscan

And of Saint Francis himself and “Lady Poverty”:

Looking at the Sacrum Commercium (an early Franciscan treatise on Holy Poverty) gives an insight into St Francis: “And when the Blessed Francis had come up with them, he said unto them : Tell me, I beseech you, where the Lady Poverty dwells, where she feeds her flock, where she takes her rest at noon, for I languish for the Love of her…While they were hastening to the heights with easy steps, behold Lady Poverty, standing on the top of the mountain. Seeing them climb with such strength, almost flying, she was quite astonished. ‘It is a long time since I saw and watched people so free of all burdens.’ And so Lady Poverty greeted them with rich blessings. ‘Tell me brothers, what is the reason for your coming here and why do you come so quickly from the valley of sorrows to the mountain of light?’ They answered: ‘We wish to become servants of the Lord of hosts because He is the King of glory. So, kneeling at your feet, we humbly beg you to agree to live with us and be our way to the King of glory, as you were the way when the dawn from on high came to visit those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death’.”

Let me conclude with these prayerful words written by St Francis:

Let us desire nothing else
let us wish for nothing else
let nothing else please us and cause us delight
except our Creator and Redeemer and Saviour,
the One True God, Who is the Fullness of Good,
all good, every good, the true and supreme Good;
Let nothing hinder us,
nothing separate us or nothing come between us.

This beautifully written passage provides a vital clue to St Francis’ pursuit of the Lady Poverty, as he lovingly called her.

In his search for peace and this higher truth that he felt for a moment in his vision of God, he became very close to nature, the animals, the plants and even the elements and the seasons. St. Francis of Assisi was alone, living off the land and seeking God in the simple beauty of the world around him.

War had tarnished his view of humanity forever. He felt that there must be a better way, and he felt that only in relinquishing all worldly goods could a man find peace and almost in a sense lose the madness.

He had often spoke of how, when he got married, he would choose the most beautiful and worthy bride to be his wife. At the time, no one knew that in his holy madness he was referring to his love of Lady Poverty, which was the name he gave to the state of life he had chosen.

Lady Poverty was the most beautiful thing to St. Francis of Assisi, and as the years would go by, it became absolutely vital to him to live in complete poverty at all times. Once he had embraced her as his bride, he never wavered in his entire life.

Lady Poverty represented to St. Francis of Assisi the pure and unsullied path the gospels laid out for all Christians. And though many told him it was impossible to live this way, he never accepted that as being true. And somehow, he had the interior discipline to weather and accept all manner of hardship brought on by nature and all the elements around him, including hunger, thirst and lack of shelter.

In the accounts of St. Francis of Assisi’s life, it was said of him that he would become like an angel when he spoke of Lady Poverty

St. Francis of Assisi so loved Lady Poverty that he wrote about it in a document entitled The Sacred Exchange Between St. Francis and Lady Poverty wherein he has a discussion with his bride about her immense beauty to the Lord:

“…How great must be your dignity, then, and how beyond compare your stature! He left behind all the ranks of angels and the immense powers – of which there is a great abundance in heaven – when he came to look for you in the lowest regions of the earth – you who were lying in the mud of the swamp, in darkness, and in the shadow of death. All living beings held you in great contempt. All people ran from you and, as far as they could, cast you aside. Even though there were some who couldn’t escape from you , you were no less contemptible and despicable to them.” He went on to say, “ But after the Lord of lords came, taking you as His own, He lifted up your head among the tribes of the peoples. He adorned you as a bride with a crown, exalting you above the heights of the clouds. Yet, even though a number of people, ignorant of your power and glory still hate you, this takes nothing away from you because you live freely on the sacred mountains, in the strongest dwelling-place of Christ’s glory…” The Sacred Exchange Between St. Francis and Lady Poverty - St. Francis of Assisi

The young playboy eventually ended up falling in love with a rather different sort of “lady” And he remained unwavering in his marital vows to her until the day he died!

 

[AdamP88]

That seems to be related – in that by offering up those sufferings, you’re also relieving yourself of your worry and anxiety about them. Is that sort of the experience you’re point to?

Yes, that’s it. We would offer our sufferings physical and mental…to Jesus, who we believe is God made man.

As well as prayers of praise to God we pray intercessions fo things in our lives and offering our suffering for this is considered a way of doing this.

 

[AdamP88]

When will you be entering the order?

Laypeople give computers and Internet connections to Buddhist monastics so they post quite frequently on Buddhist forums and some have blogs. I hope you will be able to continue your postings.

I will receive the Habit of the Dominican Order on the 14th Sept. I should be able to continue my posting, though perhaps less regularly than before.

 

[notself]

I will receive the Habit of the Dominican Order on the 14th Sept. I should be able to continue my posting, though perhaps less regularly than before.

Out of reverence and respect, after that date, I will start refering to you as Bhante (Venerable). I am so pleased for you.

 

[AdamP88]

Out of reverence and respect, after that date, I will start refering to you as Bhante (Venerable). I am so pleased for you.

Thank you for the honour. However I would be more comfortable with simply “Brother”

The title Venerable in Catholic culture is generally reserved for the great men and women of the Church.

 

[notself]

Do these include the prajnaparamita texts or any of those that took place at Vulture Peak Mountain? Or any that take a sort of more general view on emptiness? Could you link to some examples of this overlap? I’m basically wondering to what extent the sutrayana texts on emptiness are part of that cannon.

It is my understanding that the sutta you refer to originated around 100BCE.

Vulture Peak Mountain is mentioned quite often in the Theravada Sutta as an actual place where the Buddha liked to reside. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griddhraj_Parvat

Access to Insight, a Theravada site translating the suttas, has four pages of references to Vulture Peak Mountain. accesstoinsight.org/search_results.html?cx=015061908441090246348%3Aal1bklhbjbi&cof=FORID%3A9%3BNB%3A1&ie=UTF-8&q=Vulture+Peak+Mountain&sa=Search

If by emptiness you mean empty of an unconditioned self or soul, then many suttas whether from Vulture Peak or another location speak of anatta, i.e. not self.

The Buddha also spoke of emptiness as in this sutta. Please be aware that a Lesser Discourse means short not inferior. accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html

Here is the Greater (long) Discourse on emptiness. accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.122.than.html

You may also be interested in, yes, this Middle Length Discourse, which says “there is no thing — not even Nibbana itself — that can rightly be regarded as the source from which all phenomena and experience emerge.” accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than.html

Here is a link to more suttas that mention emptiness. accesstoinsight.org/search_results.html?cx=015061908441090246348%3Aal1bklhbjbi&cof=FORID%3A9%3BNB%3A1&ie=UTF-8&q=emptiness+sutta&siteurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.accesstoinsight.org%2Ftipitaka%2Fkn%2Fthag%2Fthag.10.02.olen.html

Just click on the link and scroll through the topics. Tell us what you think.

 

[notself]

Thank you for the honour. However I would be more comfortable with simply “Brother”

The title Venerable in Catholic culture is generally reserved for the great men and women of the Church.

As you wish. :bowdown2:

 

[notself]

And here is the text in full (Śāṇkhāyana Gṛhyasūtra 1.24):

1 Now the Gâtakarman (i.e. ceremony for the new-born child).
2 Let (the father) breathe three times on the new-born child and then draw in his breath with the words, ‘Draw in your breath with the Ri**k, breathe within with the Yagus, breathe forth with the Sâman.’
3. Let him mix together butter and honey, milk curds and water, or grind together rice and barley, and give it to eat (to the child) thrice from gold (i.e. from a golden vessel or with a golden spoon),
4. With (the verse), ‘I administer to thee honey food for the festival, the wisdom (“veda”) raised by Savitar the bountiful; long-living, protected by the gods, live a hundred autumns in this world, N.N.!’(with these words) he gives him a name beginning with a sonant, with a semivowel in it, consisting of two syllables, or of four syllables, or also of six syllables; he should take a krit (suffix), not a taddhita.
5. That (name only) his father and his mother should know.
6. On the tenth day a name for common use, which is pleasing to the Brâhmanas.
7. Let him pulverise black and white and red hairs of a black ox, intermix (that powder) with those four substances, and give it to eat (to the child) four times: such (is the opinion of) Mân**dûkeya.
8 If he likes (let him do so) with the words, 'Bhûh! The Rig-veda I lay into thee, N.N., svâhâ!
'Bhuvah! The Yagur-veda I lay into thee, N.N., svâhâ!
'Svah! The Sâma-veda I lay into thee, N.N., svâhâ!
‘Bhûr bhuvah svah! Vâkovâkya (colloquies), Itihâsa, and Purâna—Om! All the Vedas I lay into thee, N.N., svâhâ!’
9. The production of intelligence (is performed) by thrice saying in his right ear, ‘Speech!’
10. And let him recite over (the child the following text), ‘Speech, the goddess, united with mind, together with breath, the child, uttered by Indra—may she rejoice in thee, the goddess, for the sake of joy, the great one, the sweet sounding, the music, full of music, the flowing, self-produced.’
11. Let him tie a piece of gold to a hempen string,
12 And bind it to (the child’s) right hand until (the mother) gets up (from childbed).
13. After the tenth day let him give it to the Brâhmanas,
14. Or keep it himself.

Beautiful.

 

[AdamP88]

Notself said:
As you wish.

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:tiphat: