Ask A Buddhist II

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But is the continuation process then the mind taking on a new body?
Yes, but you can’t really say it is the same mind, because the mind is a series of constantly changing mental events. It is still the same person because there is continuity between them, just as there is continuity between your current mind and the mind you had twenty years ago means you are the same person even though your mind isn’t the same as it used to be.
 
The first thread was so much fun. I feel we have formed a true ecumenical community of friendship so let’s continue on.

Does anyone want to Ask A Buddhist about the dhamma? Even if it was covered on the other thread, I am sure Bakmoon, Rossum and others will be glad to go over anything again that someone might of missed in the 72 pages of the other thread.

There are many topics that haven’t been covered that may be interesting to discuss.
Do Buddhists believe in a supreme being aka God?
 
Hi Bakmoon, I know of Buddhists who are followers of the late Sai Baba (from India; died recently). What was your opinion of him?

MJ
 
Hi Bakmoon, I know of Buddhists who are followers of the late Sai Baba (from India; died recently). What was your opinion of him?

MJ
I always thought that the late Sai Baba’s ideas were almost straight Hinduism rather than Buddhism. I do know that there were some controversies about possible sexual abuse by him, but that’s largely speculative and not really relavent. That’s about all I know about the man.
 
I always thought that the late Sai Baba’s ideas were almost straight Hinduism rather than Buddhism. I do know that there were some controversies about possible sexual abuse by him, but that’s largely speculative and not really relavent. That’s about all I know about the man.
Oic. Ok thanks.

MJ
 
But is the continuation process then the mind taking on a new body?
“The mind”? Which one. Your mind was different when you were five years old to what it is now. It will be different again in the future. You mind is not one thing, but a series of different things, constantly changing, with each new version conditioned by what has come before.

Your body also is not the same as it was when you were five, or as it was five years ago.

Both body and mind are changing. Each is a series of different minds/bodies conditioned by the previous minds/bodies.

Death is just another change between one mind/body and the next mind/body.

Buddhism lays great emphasis on change. To a Buddhist there is no real permanence anywhere. What appears to be permanent is just that, an appearance. The underlying reality is changing. Mountains appear to be permanent, but in reality they are slowly changing: eroding.

rossum
 
Sshhh… It’s wery, wery quiet. :sleep:
I think maybe we all have enough to absorb for now. I would like to follow up on the contemplative practice issues – as I’m fascinated by what Vouthon has shared about Catholic Practice but perhaps that is for another day and another thread :gopray:
 
Vouthon recommended **Mysticism: A Study in Nature and Development of Spiritual Consciousness **by Evelyn Underhill. I am slowly working my way through it. The bold is mine.

christianmystics.com/Ebooks/Mysticism_Study_Nature_Development/mysticism.pdf
Union must be looked upon as the true goal of mystical growth; that permanent establishment of life upon transcendent levels of reality, of which ecstasies give a foretaste to the soul. Intense forms of it, described by individual mystics, under symbols such as those of Mystical Marriage, Deification, or Divine Fecundity, all prove on examination to be aspects of this same experience “seen through a temperament.” It is right, however, to state here that Oriental Mysticism insists upon a further stage beyond that of union, which stage it regards as the real goal of the spiritual life. This is the total annihilation or reabsorption of the individual soul in the Infinite. Such an annihilation is said by the Sufis to constitute the “Eighth Stage of Progress,” in which alone they truly attain to God. Thus stated, it appears to differ little from the Buddhist’s Nirvana, and is the logical corollary of that pantheism to which the Oriental mystic always tends.
 
Greetings to all,
I’m half way through the first thread-finding it quite informative. That is the topics I can understand-some way to much depth for me. So I thought I’d ask a couple of questions on this thread before time ran out on me.
Do Lay Buddhists or others do penance when they feel sorry for what they’ve done or if they have not lived to the standards of the eightfold path in their own view? If so since Buddhism is the Middle way what sort of penance might one do for lying or being sarcastic or even speeding in their car since I suppose that wouldn’t be right action? Thank you for your time and blessings to all on caf.
 
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 Do Lay Buddhists or others do penance when they feel sorry for what they've done or if they have not lived to the standards of the eightfold path in their own view? If so since Buddhism is the Middle way what sort of penance might one do for lying or being sarcastic or even speeding in their car since I suppose that wouldn't be right action? Thank you for your time and blessings to all on caf.
Hi Chataranga,

That was what I was trying to emphasize above. The Buddhist path is completely concerned with changing our minds and our behavior, but it acts in a very different way. We just don’t have these concepts of sin, penance, or, on the other hand, redemption. Forgiveness is an interesting issue, see below. IIRC, some traditions have some place for confession, in the sense of recognizing that you’ve done something wrong and telling someone about it, but that’s not common.

First of all, in a non-theistic sense, there is no one to give penance to. In terms of Karma, the action has already occurred. You can’t undo it. But you 1) work to resolve the pain you’ve caused in the usual ways; acknowledging your wrong, apologizing, making restitution, etc. This is just basic human nature, saying “I didn’t tell you the truth, and I’m sorry. Is there anything I can do to make this situation better?” And you can 2) resolve to not do it again (naturally, we might have that resolve and not live up to it) and I think most important of all 3) Work to enrich your compassion and skillfulness so that in general you are more helpful and less harmful.

The important thing is to be simply aware that you have done something harmful. In the Buddhist view and in my experience, people are basically Buddhas already; we’re inherently good, but we get confused. If we really see that we’ve caused harm, we will very naturally be repelled by that and won’t want to do it again. So the important thing is just to see it, acknowledge it and not make excuses for harm.

But the interesting thing is that this attention to detail isn’t really about right and wrong. You look at the consequences of all of your actions; not by over-analyszing them, but again, by simply seeing the effects your actions have on others. Then you begin to learn what behaviours to reject and what behaviours to accept.

I think the most important aspect of this is simple loving-kindness. We have an obligation to be as kind to ourselves as we are to others. As we all know, we already treat ourselves and those closest to us a lot more poorly than we do others. And if we treat people in a certain way, they will tend to respond in the same way. So when we criticize and punish our own behaviour, that makes it much more likely to do that to others as well. From this perspective, we should always start from the point of view of being kind to ourselves.

Does that help?
 
Vouthon recommended **Mysticism: A Study in Nature and Development of Spiritual Consciousness **by Evelyn Underhill. I am slowly working my way through it. The bold is mine.

christianmystics.com/Ebooks/Mysticism_Study_Nature_Development/mysticism.pdf
Yes 😉

As I said previously in a PM, I do feel that Evelyn is often mistaken in her understanding of Buddhism, as were many many Western Christians in the late 19th century and at the very beginning of the 20th. Max Muller had, of course, translated the Dhammpada into German in the 1880s however that aside the rest of the Tipitaka was not readily available to most in the West. Buddhism was viewed as this kind of exotic “Oriental” mysticism by most contemporary Christians and was thus lumped together in the popular mindset with Hinduism and Sufism.

There are thus a few inaccuracies and strange comments by Underhill on “Buddhism”. I hope that one understands that, given that the first edition of this book is from the Edwardian era, it was before the time of interfaith dialogue and there was scarce knowledge among Westerners of actual Buddhism (Evelyn herself had never studied Buddhism but relied upon what other Western Christians told her of “Oriental Mysticism”).

Buddhism does not teach the “annihilation of self”, as Evelyn was wrongly led to believe by her Western sources, nor is it pantheistic but rather it teaches “Not-self” - one could say that self is an “illusion” formed by the developing mind from childhood onwards.

This idea, if I am correct (and I am so often wrong myself when getting my head around these difficult Buddhist concepts 😃 ) is not actually completely alien to Catholic mysticism either. Henry Suso spoke of an illusionary “fifth self” which men fashion for themselves (no pun intended). The key distinction is that the Western mystics spoke through the language of Neo-platonism and Aristotelianism - Greek philosophy - which does posit, as Rossum explained earlier, “substances” and “essences” to things.

As Suso explained:
"…Whoever wants to achieve a true return and become a son in Christ, let him in true detachment turn to him and away from himself. Then he will come to where he should be - true detachment…Take note with careful discrimination of these two words: oneself and leave. If you know how to weigh these two words properly, testing their meaning thoroughly to their core and viewing them with true discernment, then you will quickly grasp the truth.
Take, first of all, the first word - oneself or myself - and see what it is. It is important to realize that everyone has five kinds of self.
The first ‘self’, one has in common with a stone, and this is being. The second one shares with plants, and that is growing. The third self one shares with the animals, and this is sensation. The fourth one shares with all other men, and this is is that one posseses a common human nature in which all men are one.

The fifth - which belongs to a person exclusively as his own - is his personality, one’s individual human self, both with respect to one’s nobility and with respect to accident. Now, what is it that leads a person astray and robs him of happiness?

It is exclusively this last *self *. Because of it a person turns outward, away from God and toward himself, when he should be re-turning inward, and he fashions for himself his own self according to what is accidental. He thoughtlessly makes himself a ‘self’ of his own. In his ignorance he appropriates to this ‘self’ what is God’s. This is the direction he takes, and he eventually sinks into sinfulness.
But whoever would really leave this self should have three insights. First, he should turn his thoughtful gaze upon the nothingness of his own self and see that this self, and the self of all things, is a nothing, removed and excluded from that something which is the sole productive force. The second insight is that it not be overlooked that in this state of utter detachment one’s own self rests entirely upon one’s operative being, (as one realizes) after one becomes concious of oneself again and is not utterly destroyed. The third insight occurs as one becomes less and less, and freely surrenders oneself in everything in which one had become involved by looking to one’s creaturely existence in unfree multiplicity, as opposed to divine truth.
Ome surrenders oneself in happiness or suffering, in action or inaction in such a way that one loses oneself completely and utterly, withdrawing from oneself irreversibly and becoming one in unity with Christ, so that one always acts at his urging and receives all things and views all things in this unity. And this…becomes the same form as Christ about whom the scripture by Paul says, “I live, no longer I, Christ lives in me”…

What happens to a drunken man happens to him, though it cannot really be described, that he so forgets his self that he is not at all his self and consequently has got rid of his self completely and lost himself entirely in God, becoming one spirit in all ways with him, just as a small drop of water does which has been dropped into a large amount of wine. Just as the drop of water loses itself, drawing the taste and colour of the wine to and into itself, so it happens that those who are in full possession of blessedness lose all human desires in an inexpressible manner, and they ebb away from themselves and are immersed completely in the divine will. Otherwise, if something of the individual were to remain of which he or she were not completely emptied, scripture could not be true in stating that God shall become all things in all things. Certainly one’s being remains, but in a different form, in a different resplendence, and in a different power. This is all the result of total detachment from self…"

*** - Blessed Henry Suso (1295-1366), Catholic mystic***
Blessed Henry Suso was the most well-known mystic in medeival times. His “Little Book of Eternal Wisdom” was the most popular mystical text of the entire Medeival era. It was reprinted, copied and re-produced en masse more than any other Catholic mystical text among ordinary laity.

The “individual” self or “personality”, as Suso explains, is “made” by man alone ie it doesn’t actually exist but man fashions it for himself and this false, made-up conception of “self” is at the root of human sin and all separation from God. The “self” of all things is “nothingness”.

So we do have a “kind” of belief in “Not-self” which if Evelyn had possessed proper understanding of Buddhism in 1910 and actually been able to read English translations of the suttas, she might have discerned.

You see, I suggested Evelyn’s book because it is a systematic description of key stages but I do not agree with all of her opinions, which though wonderful and deep, do have a time-bound effect.

It is better to read the mystics for oneself and come to one’s own conclusions. Book’s like Evelyn’s are nonetheless helpful when this is not possible, or as a starter.

Christianity was expressed through Greek philosophy because of locality. It can equally be expressed through Indian philosophy ie Sramana, Buddhist, Jain and this would “enrich” Christian thought as Blessed Pope John Paul II once said.

That is the task for us post-60s, Thomas Merton-influenced Catholics 😃
 
Vouthon;
Evelyn may have missunderstood much about Buddhism by she did give an interesting definition of Nibbana when she said,
It is right, however, to state here that Oriental Mysticism insists upon a further stage beyond that of union, which stage it regards as the real goal of the spiritual life. This is the total annihilation or reabsorption of the individual soul in the Infinite
Let be reword it slightly, yet, remember that Nibbana is beyond words.

"Oriental Mysticism insits upon a further stage beyond that of union, which stage it regards as the real goal of the spiritual life. This is the total **annihilation of craving **and the awakening in the Infinites.

I think Evelyn understood more Buddhism than she realized.
 
Thank you lodro for your reply in post 299. Yes that helped immensely and thank you for taking the time to be so thorogh
 
Greetings to all,
I’m half way through the first thread-finding it quite informative. That is the topics I can understand-some way to much depth for me. So I thought I’d ask a couple of questions on this thread before time ran out on me.
Do Lay Buddhists or others do penance when they feel sorry for what they’ve done or if they have not lived to the standards of the eightfold path in their own view? If so since Buddhism is the Middle way what sort of penance might one do for lying or being sarcastic or even speeding in their car since I suppose that wouldn’t be right action? Thank you for your time and blessings to all on caf.
Penance is not spoken of in the suttas, but certainly confession in the form of reconciliation and amends is. Forgiveness comes from the one who has been harmed. After unskillful behavior, one recommits to skillful behavior in the future. Here are two suttas which explain what I am saying.
"These two are fools. Which two? The one who doesn’t see his/her transgression as a transgression, and the one who doesn’t rightfully pardon another who has confessed his/her transgression. These two are fools.

“These two are wise. Which two? The one who sees his/her transgression as a transgression, and the one who rightfully pardons another who has confessed his/her transgression. These two are wise.” — AN 2.21
“It’s a cause of growth in the Dhamma and Vinaya of the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future.” — DN 2
These suttas are found in all traditions of Buddhism although different traditions have different emphasis on them. Theravada emphasises these teachings for both monastics and laypeople although they are more formalized for monastics.

It appears from Lodro’s post that Tibetan Buddhism has less emphasis on this aspect. Also, right and wrong appear as often as skillful and unskillful in the Theravada tradition. Tibetan Buddhism emphasizes Buddha Nature, but there is no such concept in Theravada.

Each tradition of Buddhism emphasizes different teachings and some teachings are found in Vajraya (Tibetan) and Mahayana that are not found in Theravada. I hope this isn’t too confusing.
 
Dear Buddhists,

Since we now have the three major traditions represented on this thread, it may be less confusing if we used the phrase “according to the *** tradition” in our responses to questions.

Much of the differences between traditions are on emphasis or semantics but we do have a few differences that may be of some significance.

Here is a score card:

Bakmoon and I are Theravada.
rossum is Mahayana
Lodro, who just joined us, is Vajrayana (Tibetan Buddhist).
 
Vouthon, I have taken the liberty of starting a new thread up, starting with a question that for gets at the heart of what we take as the fruition of our practice.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=705316
Since we now have the three major traditions represented on this thread, it may be less confusing if we used the phrase “according to the *** tradition” in our responses to questions.
Yes, I was just thinking that it is important to make this distinction in some cases. In particular, the Mahayan/Vajrayan view of the union of Emptiness and Luminosity involves many striking differences, that incidentally and interestingly parallel some of the distinctions between orthodox christianity and others. Ultimately of course I think we can safely say that our roads end up at the same place.
 
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