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Returning_Home
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Well said. Keep in mind that this wasn’t an uncommon view in Smith’s day, the same way that Smith’s Furst Vision is echoed in earlier accounts reported by other people.
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mguthrie
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First off you asked me about what books that I read…The God Makers (Ed Decker), The New American Bible (usccb.org/nab/bible/index.shtml), The Catechism of the Catholic Church (vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm), and attended RCIA at All Saints Catholic Church in Manassas, Va.
Well, one of the things that I did was start to pray the Rosary with the Sorrowful Mysteries and had a great experience…So, I can’t really say that I had any issues after that with anything…I have a strong testimony of the Spirit’s Teaching for myself.
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Eliza10
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I am so glad to find this thread. My friend and I will soon be discussing her Mormon faith, with the help of her missionaries. I have Isaiah Bennet’s book and also I think I could do prety well with no book, and certainly I will be praying to speak the truth while preserving our freindship! (I’ve warned her that I have studied Mormon theology, and am not in agreement, and that I am *disgusted *with the character of Joseph Smith!).
My friend also shows evidence of a strong testimonies of the “Spirit’s” as she says} teaching in her life. She truly seeks God and God has given her much grace in her life. However, you and I can agree, she is dead wrong about Joseph Smith. Only with God’s grace could she ever leave her big, extended family, the Mormons Church. So my only strategy has been to validate what is good and right and true in her faith, to let it be known I have other beliefs (she is not too attentive usually when I try to expalin so I never get far) and to pray for her.
I am going to post a separate thread with a quesiton about Book of Mormon - I hope you will reply!
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Eliza10
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I think Mormons look to their elders and well-spoken authorities within their local church to explain things, then they feel confident that they’ve been told the the truth - without truly examining whether it truly sounds true. Take polygamy, for example:
This is satanic doctrine. The evil one takes the truth - in this case, that we should care for the widows, and twists it, into something perverted. That any man with enough wealth, with a “burning in his bosom” that he should take more wives, can do so, telling the women its God’s command of them (assuming they are propsoing Smith-style).
It just happened that it personally benefitted Joseph Smith to tell young girls, widows, and the wives of other living men !] that God told him they must become another multiple wife of himself. This fact is from Mormon documents, and you can read the stories of his wives on wivesofjosephsmith.org (remember, its “.org”, not .com), and see the accepted Mormon documents that these facts came from.
Now how is this different from the popular, eons-old secular, pagan thinking that if a man has wealth he is entitled to many sexual partners?? I guess it only differs in that Smith said that God secretly told him so.
Jesus said we should care for widows, and He never said that the widows should pay for the charity by having sexual relations with their benefactors.
This is satanic doctrine. The evil one takes the truth - in this case, that we should care for the widows, and twists it, into something perverted. That any man with enough wealth, with a “burning in his bosom” that he should take more wives, can do so, telling the women its God’s command of them (assuming they are propsoing Smith-style).
It just happened that it personally benefitted Joseph Smith to tell young girls, widows, and the wives of other living men !] that God told him they must become another multiple wife of himself. This fact is from Mormon documents, and you can read the stories of his wives on wivesofjosephsmith.org (remember, its “.org”, not .com), and see the accepted Mormon documents that these facts came from.
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Eliza10
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Its so interesting to see this since my freind’s young son is a “priest”. ?! I do find the liberal use of “Priest” and “Bishop” just plain offensive, though,I hold my offense to myself becasue I know this is not bad intention here and its based on sincere beliefs as they have been taught them by people in their lives that certainly seem only trustworthy.
How do you feel now about the difference between a Mormon “Priest” and a true Catholic Priest? What would you say to your Mormon brothers who say, 'I am Priest"??? And what of true ordination? I’d love to hear your thoughts.
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mguthrie
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I am back from the dead.
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mguthrie
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Sorry I am late getting back to you…I would most likely want to know why he thinks that he is Priest? Then, I would ask him to trace his preisthood back to Christ…After he is through with that I would ask him what he knows about the “Apostasy” (never happened)…Alot of Mormons attribute Martin Luther to being the main charater to forcing the “Apostasy” when in fact, I am sure Martin Luther would have debunked the Mormons if he had been around.
If you are able to get any response back from the new preist on those matters I would be really surprised.
Catholic Preist can trace their Preisthood all the way back to Christ
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wmscott
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I am not sure where this info came from; it may have been an anti Mormon site I do not know nor care. Needless to say the info is floating around out there. Is the ten items below true about Mormons?
- God was once a man like us.
- God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.
- God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
- God (“Heavenly Father”) has at least one wife, our “Mother in Heaven,” but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.
- Jesus was married.
- We can become like God and rule over our own universe.
- There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds.
- Jesus and Satan (“Lucifer”) are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father
- Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.
10.We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him.
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gabe34
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I read a booklet by apologist Jimmy Akin - Mormonism: A Catholic Perspective-A Catholic Answers Special Report. He mentions many of the things we should be aware of. The comment that Mormon Baptism is not valid and therefore they are not Christian is made. Please advise of other materials.
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mguthrie
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I’ll just go through the ten questions that you had one by one (Yes or No):
- God was once a man like us…Yes
- God has a tangible body of flesh and bone…Yes
- God lives on a planet near the star Kolob…No, never heard this in the church
- God (“Heavenly Father”) has at least one wife, our “Mother in Heaven,” but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her…Mother in Heaven (yes) so holy (no)…Both of these items are supposed to be “deep doctrine”.
- Jesus was married…No not on earth…Yes, in Heaven
- We can become like God and rule over our own universe…Yes
- There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds…Yes
- Jesus and Satan (“Lucifer”) are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father…Yes Jesus…No Lucifer because he was kicked out…I guess Lucifer was at one time though.
- Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife…No, God the Holy Spirit
10.We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him…No, they believe that Jesus part of the center of their religion…They claim him to be a seperate God from the Father.
Some other things:
Mormons do not hold Mary in any high esteem.
Mormons believe that when they get to the third level of heaven (Celestial Kingdom) all their Heirs will be their as well.
Mormons believe that Michael the Arch Angel became Adam.
Anyway there you go. If you have any other questions feel free to ask.
God Bless
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mguthrie
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Mormon baptism is not Christian for the following reasons:
They do not believe in the Holy Trinity, so when they baptize and say, “in the name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost” they mean them as three seperate and distinct persons. So essentially they are saying in the name of three seperate gods.
When you are 18 you are expected to go to the temple and have your Endowment performed. At this time you are also expected to learn new and exciting things like that you can become a god and procreate in heaven, they threaten you by pain of death in hell not to reveal the temple secrets, and they also want you to do all of this for folks that are already dead outside of the Mormon faith.
Let me know what else you would like to know…I wasn’t really sure what you meant by, “Please advise of other materials”.
There are some books out there that really explain alot about the Mormon faith. One such author is Ed Decker. Be careful when your reading his books because he may not have everything right. You will also start to feel alot of animosity toward Mormons. Just remember to ask questions and pray for Mormon conversions to the Catholic Church.
God Bless
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GTNJNightingale
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wow! THAT’S ALL WOW! there sure is a tangled mess you have really got to try hard to get free from. im so glad you did.
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GTNJNightingale
Guest
I have one question. my husband was raised Mormon, and realized at a very young age what a false doctrine they have. The Mormon religion has made him very skeptical of other ‘‘religions’’. I have been raised up a Catholic and am very much in love with my belief. my husband is coming around as well. We are currently living in his mothers home (she is very very LDS) (and very very quiet and under the rug so to speak about there religion) she has no idea that i know quite a few things about the the teachings. i know the way the LDS religion portrays the catholic religion…my question is this…his little sister is going to be 18 soon and is very active in the LDS church and very impressionable. I know that what she is being taught is SO SO false and im ripping my hair out standing by watching it happen…i am just so unsure how to approach opening a conversation with her.I would like to gain a little trust and confidence in her (even over time if need be) I would really love for her to feel comfortable with hearing a little bit about what Catholics believe and eventually reveal some of the truths about what she is being taught that the LDS have muted and hushed. I know she is such a bright girl and has so much love and power of the spirit with in her …if she only knew the truth in its fullness. The problem is that she has been taught to never look outside the walls of the safe and comforting teachings of the LDS religion…and she doesnt (i dont think) dare to. anything that the LDS church doesnt teach is from satan. she doesnt research or look further for truth or fact or evidences …it breaks my heart. i would really like to know a way that i can ease in and approach her with out scaring her off. (the second anyone says anything to her about anything other than LDS…she shuts off…she is very kind but shuts off. because she has been told that satan will try to defer her away from the one true church and the restored gospel .) please if you have any insight on a way that i can approach her and gain confidence in her i would really appreciate it.
thanks a bunch.
Gods Love
thanks a bunch.
Gods Love
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Guitarjesus7
Guest
I think you’re mistaken. I was a Mormon up until last year, and There Is no such place as purgatory in Mormon theology. There’s spirit prison and paradise, which is a somewhat similar concept, not not purgatory in the same way Catholics view it. I’m not trying to offendIn the Mormon Church it is believed that there is Purgetory, Hell, and Heaven. The belief is that Hell is a dark, cold, and loathsome place seperate from your Heavenly Father and brothers and sisters…It is also taught that it is the traditional belief of fire and brimstone…So maybe there are two hells?
Heaven is thought to have three levels and the levels are as follows: the Telestial, Terrestial, and the Celestial. The belief is that all of these are in heaven, but the people whenever they reach one of these levels will not know the difference between each one until they progress to the next one…The ultimate goal is to reach the Celestial Kingdom where you can remained married to your spouse on earth and create more children to inhabit other worlds that your Heavenly Father has created. In other words, the creative process is repeated over and over through you for these other worlds.
Wild huh??
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mguthrie
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I understand what you are going through. My own daughter is still LDS and very poud to say so. The only way I have found to engage in healthy dialoge with her is to ask her what she believes and why. I try to get an understanding of why she believes what she has told me and where she can find it in the Bible or even the Book of Mormon. I then tell her what I believe and where Scripture supports that belief. I do not take an defensive approach even when she seems to be struggling to find her answers, Many of the doctines that the Mormons believe in are not even in the Book of Mormon. This is something that is very useful. I bring up subject like: Becoming Gods/Goddesses, the Great Apostasy, and the Priesthood…It is very hard to break into their shell of lies, but you have to remember that many have been taught this way thier whole lives. You have to have compassion and understanding…You have to prayer often for conversion.
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mguthrie
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You might be correct I suppose. Many years ago when I went through the Missionary Dicussions I asked if the spirit prison was the same as purgatory and I was told that it was…I do remember the paradise part too, which I took to mean a different place than spirit prison. Prison and Paradise seem to clash together. Thanks for the correction. So got anymore info on this? I’m sure everyone would like to know more about it.I think you’re mistaken. I was a Mormon up until last year, and There Is no such place as purgatory in Mormon theology. There’s spirit prison and paradise, which is a somewhat similar concept, not not purgatory in the same way Catholics view it. I’m not trying to offend
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Stavros
Guest
Questions were asked in the thread previously about a Heavenly Mother and Kolob. The only “Canon” existance of these theological concepts is in the LDS Hymnal.
From the LDS Hymnal, “If You Could Hie To Kolob” (Hymn #284): [First Three Verses]
This hymn discusses “Kolob”, the place where God resides, according to the Book of Abraham in the “Pearl of Great Price”. The Pearl of Great Price is a part of LDS Canon scripture, translated by Joseph Smith from a purchased papyrus.
This hymn discusses many non-traditional Mormon beliefs, such as the pre-existance, Heavenly Mother (God’s wife), and “looking on God’s face” (God has a body)
From the LDS Hymnal, “If You Could Hie To Kolob” (Hymn #284): [First Three Verses]
This hymn discusses “Kolob”, the place where God resides, according to the Book of Abraham in the “Pearl of Great Price”. The Pearl of Great Price is a part of LDS Canon scripture, translated by Joseph Smith from a purchased papyrus.
- If you could hie to Kolob
In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward
With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be? - Or see the grand beginning,
Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation,
Where Gods and matter end?
Methinks the Spirit whispers,
“No man has found ‘pure space,’
Nor seen the outside curtains,
Where nothing has a place.” - The works of God continue,
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter;
There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit;
There is no end to race.
This hymn discusses many non-traditional Mormon beliefs, such as the pre-existance, Heavenly Mother (God’s wife), and “looking on God’s face” (God has a body)
- O my Father, thou that dwellest
In the high and glorious place,
When shall I regain thy presence
And again behold thy face?
In thy holy habitation,
Did my spirit once reside?
In my first primeval childhood
Was I nurtured near thy side? - For a wise and glorious purpose
Thou hast placed me here on earth
And withheld the recollection
Of my former friends and birth;
Yet ofttimes a secret something
Whispered, “You’re a stranger here,”
And I felt that I had wandered
From a more exalted sphere. - I had learned to call thee Father,
Thru thy Spirit from on high,
But, until the key of knowledge
Was restored, I knew not why.
In the heav’ns are parents single?
No, the thought makes reason stare!
Truth is reason; truth eternal
Tells me I’ve a mother there. - When I leave this frail existence,
When I lay this mortal by,
Father, Mother, may I meet you
In your royal courts on high?
Then, at length, when I’ve completed
All you sent me forth to do,
With your mutual approbation
Let me come and dwell with you.
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Stavros
Guest
I think you’re mistaken. I was a Mormon up until last year, and There Is no such place as purgatory in Mormon theology. There’s spirit prison and paradise, which is a somewhat similar concept, not not purgatory in the same way Catholics view it. I’m not trying to offend
I found a good link with information about this issue here:You might be correct I suppose. Many years ago when I went through the Missionary Dicussions I asked if the spirit prison was the same as purgatory and I was told that it was…I do remember the paradise part too, which I took to mean a different place than spirit prison. Prison and Paradise seem to clash together. Thanks for the correction. So got anymore info on this? I’m sure everyone would like to know more about it.
The Postmortal Spirit World
And here’s another very good explanation (from Death, Physical):
When the physical body dies, the spirit continues to live. In the spirit world, the spirits of the righteous “are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow” (Alma 40:12). A place called spirit prison is reserved for “those who [have] died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets” (D&C 138:32). **The spirits in prison are “taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and all other principles of the gospel that [are] necessary for them to know” (D&C 138:33-34). If they accept the principles of the gospel, repent of their sins, and accept ordinances performed in their behalf in temples, they will be welcomed into paradise. **
Because of the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, physical death is only temporary: “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). Everyone will be resurrected, meaning that every person’s spirit will be reunited with his or her body—“restored to their proper and perfect frame” and no longer subject to death (Alma 40:23; see also Alma 11:44-45).
I’d also like to add some clarification of the belief of Spirit Prison. Basically, Spirit Prison is a “last chance” place for people to accept the True Plan of Jesus Christ. According to the lessons I remember learning in church growing up, by the time Jesus comes again, all will have had baptism by proxy done for them. So everyone will have that opportunity to accept the gospel and have the fullness of the blessings even if a person was not Christian in life.
I was taught that a deceased person in Spirit Prison has to accept the gospels or they will not be saved and go to Celestial Kingdom.Here’s where it always got tricky for me. The practice of baptism for the dead in the temple implies that the same blessings are given to the dead that are given to the living with baptism and laying on of hands, including the remission of sins. So … does this mean that my uncle, who was an adulterer and a non-believer all his life, has had his sins washed away and has all of the same blessings as a live person who lived cradle to grave as a faithful Mormon? Let’s take this one step further … for arguement’s sake, let’s say that Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun really were baptized by proxy and sealed by proxy in a Mormon Temple. No, seriously. Does their baptism by proxy mean that all of Hitler’s sins were washed away? How binding are these ordinances?
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BYUChemAlum
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Latter-day Saints do not believe that proxy ordinances force a person to become Mormon. Instead, we believe that they offer the deceased the opportunity to accept or reject the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ if they did not have a real opportunity to do so in this life. So, if your uncle or Hitler or whomever was baptized by proxy, this does not necessarily mean that they had their sins washed away. What it means is that they have an opportunity, in Spirit Prison, to accept or reject that baptism. Now, we also do proxy confirmation, sealing, etc. under the hope that they did accept it and repented, however in our theology, there is always a choice, and doing this does not force someone to become LDS, in our belief.
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larsenl1
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I would like to know if someone in the Mormon church has performed a baptism by proxy using my name or anyone in my family. I am opposed to this, but I want to be informed. How do LSD members get names of people to do this ceremony (other than a public forum on the internet
)? Is it true that the LSD church thinks it is their duty to obtain a genealogy of everyone in the whole world?Thank you!
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