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Lokabrenna
Guest
Well, that all depends on your definition of “person”, not everyone agrees that life begins at conception.
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Warrenton
Guest
I enjoyed this post quite a bit, and think that it comes very close from what classical pagans would have said.
One aspect that deserves comment is that the RC meaning of mystery is a bit different than what you wrote.
When we refer to mystery, we usually use the word as shorthand for the point at which rational explanation can go no further. A good example is the Trinity: we are only able to extrapolate so much about the divine person from the revelation we have received. What lies beyond the realm of human reason we term mystery, which is close in meaning to “unknowable.”
The second sense RCs use mystery is specifically to describe how the sacraments (ie, Christian magic) actually occurs and takes effect. We can’t see it, but we believe it happens, and that it has to happen for certain spiritual things to result.
This is distinct from pagan mystery, such as one of my favorite, the riddle of the sphinx. Why did the sphinx pose her riddle, what was her purpose, how was one man able to solve it? What does the riddle say about us, and the gods? The story has always struck me as pregnant with meaning in a way that most bible stories are not (nor are meant to be, I think). That is the fun, if I may use that word, of pagan mystery. Why was the sheep golden? Why does flute music appease satyrs? Pagan mystery is obscuret, or recondite, but essential to its appeal.
Catholic mystery, on the other hand, is merely the point at which the believer must assent on faith.
Hope that helps in future discussions!
Cheers!
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PRmerger
Guest
When do you believe human life begins?
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PRmerger
Guest
Loka? Are you good on this? Do you rescind your original statement?
So these tales were told knowing they were about made up entities, or did these ancient peoples actually believe that these gods existed and “gave birth to a horse as a mare”?
And if these ancient people did not view these lore as literally true, then they believed them to be–to use a comparison–how we view Cinderella?
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PRmerger
Guest
Ian? Could you elaborate? What first-hand experiences have you had with the gods?
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mwok
Guest
But what you said earlier is that one person cannot determine that another persons reality is not true to them, now you are saying that “professionals” can determine that a persons reality is skewed and therefore can’t be true.
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PRmerger
Guest
I’m sure you understand that Christians don’t believe that Jesus came to be a “moral example” either, so I’m not sure what prompts that comment.
Why? Why should society have a say in what’s moral or immoral?
Paraphrasing Peter Kreeft:
For society does not mean something over and above other human beings, something like God. **Society is simply other people like myself. ** What authority do they have over me? Are they always right? Must I never disobey them? What kind of blind status quo conservatism is this? Should a German have obeyed society in the Nazi era? To say society is the source of [morality] is to say that when one prisoner becomes a thousand prisoners, they become the judge. It is to say that mere quantity gives absolute authority; that what the individual has in his soul is nothing, no authoritative conscience, but that what society (i.e., many individuals) has is. That is simply a logical impossibility, like thinking stones can think if only you have enough of them. (Some proponents of artificial intelligence believe exactly that kind of logical fallacy, by the way: that electrons and chips and chunks of metal can think if only you have enough of them in the right geometrical arrangements.)
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PRmerger
Guest
What if one party wanted to include an oath of exclusivity but the other didn’t? And the more dominant partner got his way?
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mwok
Guest
True, not everyone agrees that life begins at conception. But most scientists do. What people who disagree as to when life begins really are confused as to when they think life has value.
But my question was:
It is illegal in this country to murder, however, based on the case of abortion certain circumstances are accepted such as rape. If I witness a man in the act of rape, is it acceptable that I murder him on the spot? Your arguement was that if abortion was banned(illegal), that women would still have abortions. I agree that abortions will still happen whether they are legal or not, however, murder, controlled substances, arsen, assault, rape, etc. are all illegal and yet still happen. To say that something should not be banned because it would happen anyway is a weak reason.
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Lokabrenna
Guest
Yeah, I’m good on this!
It’s impossible to know exactly what the ancients believed about their gods because they rarely (if ever) come out and say “This story here? It actually happened.” Perhaps some believed in their literal truth (as in, as an event that happened within history), but others could have seen it as allegory. Certainly modern Pagans have a variety of different views when it comes to the truth of the myths, the nature of the gods.
Perhaps, although there are those who find value in her story beyond its entertainment value, not quite on the level of a religious cult, but I would say that you don’t necessarily have to believe in the literal truth of a story to believe that the gods are real.
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Lokabrenna
Guest
I think that’s a question with no simple answer, but even if I did believe that human life begins at conception (I don’t) I have absolutely no right to tell another woman what she may or may not do with her body (or anything that happens to be inside her body at the time). The decision to have or not have an abortion is a choice a woman must make for herself.
Now, for my own personal views on the subject, I believe that conception sets in motion the process by which a human is created, but until the baby is outside it’s mother’s womb, the fetus is a potential human, the mother takes precedence. I think it’s also worth noting that even pregnancies that are wanted end up being lost through no fault of the mother.
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mwok
Guest
What is your definition of “potential human”? That term seems very vague to me.
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PRmerger
Guest
This is curious.
Take an analogy: you’re with friends and you’re hunting in the woods (as the ancient peoples did) and there’s a shadow that may be an animal, but it may be your son as well, who went ahead to scout for the prey.
Your friends are chomping at the bit to get their first kill–something they will receive great honor in returning. They say, “I’m not sure if it’s your son or if it’s the deer, but I’m going to go for it and shoot.”
You’re going to tell me that you have no right to tell them “Don’t shoot! It MIGHT be my son!” because you have no right to remove their chance for receiving honor?
Wouldn’t the prudent thing to do would be to say, “Since we’re not sure, let’s err on the side of caution and assume it might be my son!”
Seriously, if you’re not sure when life begins, the moral thing to do would be to err on the side of caution and assume the fetus is human until proven otherwise, no?
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PRmerger
Guest
Fair enough. I appreciate your honesty.
However, it does cause me to question how much of this you’re making up as you go.
Which is exactly what I’ve been trying to say about paganism–there is nothing in it that binds you to something greater than that which you make up.
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PRmerger
Guest
Can you tell me what changes metaphysically, spiritually, physically when the fetus goes from the birth canal to the delivery table that makes him now human? Isn’t it really just a change in location? Does something mystical happen when he lands on a sterile table and is touched by the obstetrician’s hands?
Yes. Not sure why it’s “worth noting” and what you think it indicates regarding the humanity of the fetus, but I don’t disagree with the latter portion.
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Warrenton
Guest
Because in classical paganism, society’s roots ran very deep. Everyone in the society was related either by blood or by virtue of the patron/client relationship. Society’s morality was a function of what one’s forefathers and mothers had decided, in communion with everyone else’s forebears. While democratic in the modern sense of “one man, one vote,” it was more “domocratic” in that public morality actually arose from the deme itself. The Germans decided on monogomy in the same way they decided to adorn their helmets with horns. It was far more immediate than Americans all purchasing health care, because a half Kenyan man who lives in Washington said they should.
The Venerable Bede is perhaps the best account of the process of Christianization among a thoroughly pagan, Germanic people. It is clear that the Church did not supplant the Saxon’s morality so much as inform it.
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PRmerger
Guest
Ah, very good.
So how would a pagan, then, answer the question: who is society except “people like me” and why do they have authority over me to determine my morality?
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Warrenton
Guest
I can only answer this “as I would answer it if I were a pagan.”
If I were a pagan, I would begin by defining my society. As you might expect, my definition would be pretty narrow: at the most, it would be the people who worship the same gods as I do.
What is moral or not is solely a function of what we decide, or what we think the gods have told us, either through dreams, trances, signs and wonders, or received wisdom (like myths). Over time, the quantum of received wisdom is great enough to form the basis of a complete tradition governing almost every aspect of life. All pagan societies are traditional.
Outsiders have no legitimate (name removed by moderator)ut into our morality, nor do they posess any legitimate claims upon us in any manner. They are practically like a different animal.
As far as my claims over you go, that becomes solely a function over whether you are with me as a brother, or as a stranger. If the latter, I have neither claim from you nor duty to you, other than that which self interest and power provide.
Paganism is not for sissies.
Vide: the Romans, the Spartans, the Vikings, to name but a few.
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PRmerger
Guest
Simply fascinating!
And if I were a pagan and my brother or fellow worshiper in my society tells me that my sexual desire for is illicit because he was told this in a trance, then I must obey him?
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vsedriver
Guest
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