Ask a Pagan (Again!)

[Lokabrenna]

First of all, thank you, Loka, for being such a pleasant, patient, and unflappable source of knowledge about a subject many are unfamiliar with or don’t understand. Heil thu farir!

Awww, thank you! I’m trying my best to answer questions.

1. We get our information about what gods do, specialize in, are interested in, mainly from myths.

This is true, but we also obtain information from (as you mentioned) personal experience, and the experiences of the first people who worshiped those gods.

1. Gods are useful/attractive to us insofar as they can help us in those areas. No one prays to Aphrodite for strength in battle, for example.

I’m not so sure about this, some of Aphrodite’s epithets were Nikêphoros (“Bringer of Victory”), Areia (“of Ares”, “Warlike”), Hôplismenê (“Armed”), perhaps indicating that someone thought that she’d make good “backup” during a battle (Trojan War notwithstanding).

1. But all the stories conflict. Who’s in charge of what area? Are all the war gods interchangeable? If so, why specialize in only one pantheon? How do you know it’s the right one, if that question has any meaning? It all seems arbitrary, and thus cause and result (i.e. sacrifice/ritual followed by blessing) impossible to verify.

I personally think that although all war gods (assuming you can reduce all deities to one function) have a common interest (war, in this case), the people who worshiped them all thought of war in different ways. The Greeks even had two deities who embodied different aspects of war (Ares was the “war is Hell” deity, Athena was more interested in strategy and tactics).

I raised these issues some years ago on a Pagan message board and nobody else seemed to think it was much of a problem, but I couldn’t make sense of it any more. Does the question of the specific nature and metaphysical reality of the gods matter at all to Pagans these days? Or do you still just go on having fun and doing rituals without bothering much about questions that probably can’t be answered anyway? I’m curious, and do not intend to be critical. Thanks.

I’ve seen more of the “do the rituals and don’t worry about the Big Stuff”. The point, I think, is not “where did the gods come from?” the point is “the gods are here, they’re interacting with people”. It’s kind of like in a horror movie where no one knows anything about the monster. Some part of the film might be devoted to explaining where the monster came from, but what really matters is “the monster is here and it’s trying to eat me”.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Do any pagans offer money? I understand the objection to sacrificing animals (unethical, unsanitary), but wouldn’t burning a fiver in a candle be an acceptable equivalent to killing a lamb? (Adjusted for price and inflation). Yet I’ve never heard of any covens practicing that form of offering.

I’ve heard of coins being given as an offering (either buried or tossed into water) but it strikes me that, instead of burning the money; why not donate it to a charity of some sort dedicated to protecting an animal that’s sacred to that deity or helping people who fall under that deity’s patronage? It’s not so much about finding “equivalents”, as it is giving what you can afford or what is feasible for your community. Sure, a cut of beef isn’t the bull that Zeus is used to getting, but we don’t have city-wide festivals or the resources in general to give him exactly what he’s used to getting every festival day.

 

[samiam1611]

Well, let me toss my pointed hat into the ring,

That’s clever!

A couple years after leaving the Church I became Pagan and within a short while I was following a Celtic path within the framework of a neo-Gardnerian eclectic Wiccan coven.

My ideas about Deity are complex. My Patroness is the Celtic Goddess, Brighid, who is also known as Brigid and may be familiaar to some in her transmorgrified form as the Irish Saint Brigit.

Can you explain what a patroness is? What role does she play in your religious practices or spirituality?

I believe the gods and goddesses of Paganism are real, but I believe they are emanations, if you will, from an ultimate Source of the Divine which is essentially unknowable.

Is the Source a separate deity from the others? Is there a pantheistic or panentheistic aspect to your beliefs? Can you elaborate?

 

[Lokabrenna]

Could you please elaborate? What moral imperative was given for Origen to emasculate himself?

(And it would be helpful if you cited your source(s). Thanks.)

Wikipedia says that: “according to Eusebius he castrated himself based on a literal reading of Matthew 19:12 ‘There are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.’ (RSV)]”

although it adds elsewhere:

Some followers of Early Christianity considered castration as an acceptable way to counter sinful desires of the flesh. Origen is reported by Eusebius[43] to have castrated himself based on his reading of the Gospel of Matthew 19:12, although there is some doubt concerning this story (Schaff considers the account genuine but cites Baur et al. in opposition.[44]) Origen argues against such literal interpretations of other passages from Matthew in his First Principles. Nonetheless, the first law of the First Council of Nicaea in 325 was to outlaw the practice among Christians of the Roman Empire.

This article is cited as a source: ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.xi.viii.html

Even if the story isn’t true, it appears that some Christians were doing it, otherwise why would it be at the top of the list for the council to discuss, if people weren’t doing it? After all, self-castration is something the pagans and their evil mystery cults do, right?

 

[SGWessells]

Could you please elaborate? What moral imperative was given for Origen to emasculate himself?

(And it would be helpful if you cited your source(s). Thanks.)

Eusebius, Book 6, section 8, says, “The saying, ‘there are eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake’ [Origen] took in an absurdly literal sense, and he was eager both to fulfill the savior’s words and at the same time to rule out any suspicion of vile imputations on the part of unbelievers. For in spite of his youth, he discussed religious problems before a mixed audience. So he lost no time in carrying out his savior’s words, endeavoring to do it unnoticed by the bulk of his pupils.” Penguin ed. trans. G.A. Williamson, p. 186. Evidently Origen took it upon himself to, er, take it off of himself. But he had ethical motives, according to Eusebius.

I’m sorry that I do not recall where I read about the priests of Cybele; it was awhile ago. I often remember “that” I read something, but forget “where.” It’s very frustrating. I imagine a google search would bring it up, though.

 

[SGWessells]

Right. And this is exactly why it turns out that these pagan gods never seem to demand anything of their worshippers that the worshippers themselves wouldn’t demand. It’s because the voice of the gods whispering to them is none other than…guess who.

(Refer back to Jones worshipping Jones.)

Why are you and your god so obsessed with obedience as the only evidence of devotion? Jesus said, “you are my friends if you keep my commandments,” John 14:15. What kind of a friendship is that? As soon as you do something I said not to do, or refuse to do what I say, we’re not friends any more? Do your friends treat you that way? Or you them ?

When I was Pagan, my coven would often include in our rituals some means of specifying traits, habits, practices in our lives which we felt we needed to change, and asked the gods to help us, especially in times of the year dealing with endings and harvests, or when one season changed to another. It wasn’t that the gods gave us a list of thou shalts and thou shalt nots; the prodding came from within ourselves (whether the gods had anything to do with it, I don’t know; at that time, I would have thought they did), and had to do with our personal growth, not a set of universal rules. despite this, the process involved trying to give up habits I was attached to and things I enjoyed, or traits in myself that I thought bad but were hard to give up. We weren’t just pretending that the gods told us to do only what we would have done anyway.

 

[SGWessells]

I’ve heard of coins being given as an offering (either buried or tossed into water) but it strikes me that, instead of burning the money; why not donate it to a charity of some sort dedicated to protecting an animal that’s sacred to that deity or helping people who fall under that deity’s patronage? It’s not so much about finding “equivalents”, as it is giving what you can afford or what is feasible for your community. Sure, a cut of beef isn’t the bull that Zeus is used to getting, but we don’t have city-wide festivals or the resources in general to give him exactly what he’s used to getting every festival day.

Thank you, that is a much better idea! Use your sacrifice to help somebody. Offer food to the gods by means of the local food bank or homeless shelter.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Thank you, that is a much better idea! Use your sacrifice to help somebody. Offer food to the gods by means of the local food bank or homeless shelter.

Ah, I see what you did there! It would depend on the deity, however. In some cultures, it was the norm to consume offerings (in fact, in some cases the offering was literally the meal that you set out for your family), others disposed of them. You might also ask: “Why not go a step further and work towards eliminating the causes of hunger and homelessness?”

I suppose it might seem like a waste, but from the perspective of someone who believes that the gods are real entities who like it when humans share their food with them, it’s not. It’s one of the simplest ways to build a relationship with a deity (provided, of course, that you have the food to offer).

 

[PRmerger]

Wikipedia says that: “according to Eusebius he castrated himself based on a literal reading of Matthew 19:12 ‘There are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.’ (RSV)]”

Eek! That there were Christians who castrated themselves is, well, appalling!

However, not sure how that answers my question: "Why has a god never commanded, as far as moral practices, that a worshipper abstain from an illicit sexual liason that the worshipper so desires?

 

[PRmerger]

Eusebius, Book 6, section 8, says, “The saying, ‘there are eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake’ [Origen] took in an absurdly literal sense, and he was eager both to fulfill the savior’s words and at the same time to rule out any suspicion of vile imputations on the part of unbelievers. For in spite of his youth, he discussed religious problems before a mixed audience. So he lost no time in carrying out his savior’s words, endeavoring to do it unnoticed by the bulk of his pupils.” Penguin ed. trans. G.A. Williamson, p. 186. Evidently Origen took it upon himself to, er, take it off of himself. But he had ethical motives, according to Eusebius.

I’m sorry that I do not recall where I read about the priests of Cybele; it was awhile ago. I often remember “that” I read something, but forget “where.” It’s very frustrating. I imagine a google search would bring it up, though.

Eek! That there were Christians who castrated themselves is, well, appalling!

However, not sure how that answers my question: "Why has a god never commanded, as far as moral practices, that a worshipper abstain from an illicit sexual liason that the worshipper so desires?

 

[PRmerger]

Why are you and your god so obsessed with obedience as the only evidence of devotion?

Why would you say that I am obsessed with obedience?

I am simply pointing out that modern pagans seem to have conveniently found gods who happen to like the same things that the worshipper likes.

Jesus said, “you are my friends if you keep my commandments,” John 14:15. What kind of a friendship is that? As soon as you do something I said not to do, or refuse to do what I say, we’re not friends any more? Do your friends treat you that way? Or you them ?

Let’s take it one step back–and look at it simply from the point of a Divine Entity. Not a friendship.

Do you think that if you happen to come across a Divine Entity that believes everything you believe, and commands everything you happen to like, and gives a thumbs up to every inclination you desire, that this Divine Entity is truly Divine?

Or would a reasonable man give himself pause and think, “Huh, I would think that a Divine Being would not be so…well, pedestrian.”

 

[PRmerger]

When I was Pagan, my coven would often include in our rituals some means of specifying traits, habits, practices in our lives** which we felt **we needed to change,

Heh.

Speaks volumes.

 

[John7]

And don’t say: “I hope this doesn’t offend you,” it won’t lol.

You never answered post #61…afraid?

answer Christ’s question from Matt 23.

 

[Lokabrenna]

You never answered post #61…afraid?

answer Christ’s question from Matt 23.

Hel actually isn’t a bad place (and she’s a nice lady, too!) so there’s no need to avoid going there unless you REALLY like the idea of fighting all day and feasting all night in Valhalla (or any other fine afterlife destinations).

Oh, you mean YOUR Hell? shrugs If you believe what your book says about it, by all means, avoid going there. I can’t very well avoid damnation if I don’t believe in the concept of damnation in the first place.

 

[Contarini]

Hel actually isn’t a bad place (and she’s a nice lady, too!) so there’s no need to avoid going there unless you REALLY like the idea of fighting all day and feasting all night in Valhalla (or any other fine afterlife destinations).

Oh, you mean YOUR Hell? shrugs If you believe what your book says about it, by all means, avoid going there. I can’t very well avoid damnation if I don’t believe in the concept of damnation in the first place.

And in fact, as I pointed out, the poster was directing toward you a question originally posed to Jewish religious leaders!

Edwin

 

[SGWessells]

Why would you say that I am obsessed with obedience?

I am simply pointing out that modern pagans seem to have conveniently found gods who happen to like the same things that the worshipper likes.

Let’s take it one step back–and look at it simply from the point of a Divine Entity. Not a friendship.

Do you think that if you happen to come across a Divine Entity that believes everything you believe, and commands everything you happen to like, and gives a thumbs up to every inclination you desire, that this Divine Entity is truly Divine?

Or would a reasonable man give himself pause and think, “Huh, I would think that a Divine Being would not be so…well, pedestrian.”

But none of the deities I related to as a pagan were like that. For instance, I resonated with Norse paganism a lot, and with Odin in particular; however, the whole warrior aspect repelled me. I could think of a thousand afterlives more appealing to me than swilling beer in a mead hall, then drilling for Ragnarok by beating each other with swords and axes. Yuck! The whole hanged man theme is a little gruesome as well (though I once posed as the hanged man for an artist friend who was painting a tarot deck).
I followed Isis for awhile, though Egyptian pantheon generally did not attract me (don’t even mention the dung beetle or Hapi the Hippo God).
I understand your point that a God who reflected so exactly the worshiper’s likes and dislikes was a little too much like a projection, but for pagans in a coven, everybody has favorites, and there are conflicting ideas about what pantheon to concentrate on, what method of ritual, and other details, so nobody gets everything his or her own way all the time. But that’s good, because it makes us stretch and grow. But I never found a deity about whom I liked everything and disliked nothing. Never met a person like that either, including myself.

 

[John7]

Hel actually isn’t a bad place (and

I can’t very well avoid damnation if

 

[John7]

who said anything bout proselytising? oh I guess *you *did,
a simple *question *was asked and Lokabrenna answered it, that’s it.

pooor Jharek so sensitive about these things. your comments are welcomed though.

 

[SGWessells]

Originally Posted by SGWessells
“When I was Pagan, my coven would often include in our rituals some means of specifying traits, habits, practices in our lives which we felt we needed to change,”

Heh.

Speaks volumes.

Well, who better to say? You never read my list, or the list of anyone else in the coven. What makes you so sure that we would only give ourselves easy assignments? Maybe some people need an external god cracking the whip to make them tackle the hard stuff, but you can’t just assume that about people you don’t know. A strict reward-punishment paradigm isn’t always the most effective. People with strict parental upbringing often learned a rebellious response during childhood which would kick in at any knee-jerk do this, don’t do that list, but responded very well to love and encouragement.
But you’ve apparently made up your mind that only external control can be effective, and nothing anyone who actually experienced the process says will change your mind. Duly noted.

 

[PRmerger]

I understand your point that a God who reflected so exactly the worshiper’s likes and dislikes was a little too much like a projection, but for pagans in a coven, everybody has favorites, and there are conflicting ideas about what pantheon to concentrate on, what method of ritual, and other details, so nobody gets everything his or her own way all the time.

The bolded section is a non-sequitur, Wessells.

But that’s good, because it makes us stretch and grow. But I never found a deity about whom I liked everything and disliked nothing. Never met a person like that either, including myself.

My point was not about what you “liked or disliked” about your pagan gods. My point was that it is quite curious that these pagan gods never ask/demand/command anything that’s, well, a demand. (And perhaps I did not articulate that as well as I should have.)

And it’s interesting that you commented about never meeting “a* person* like that either.” That prompts the thought—what makes these pagan gods “gods” or “divine” or “deities” rather than simply a dead *person *(or in most cases, not even a person who actually existed by only a character) that you know about through stories and folklore?