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duneman
Guest
you must of gotten a good laugh hearing the Catholic church is thinking of buying the Crystal Palace Church building in California, and dont blame ya for laughing very hypocritical of them…
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Lokabrenna
Guest
Nah, they can buy whatever they want, but I do think that money would probably be better spent helping the poor or maybe fixing up the churches they already have.
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The_Centurion
Guest
[BIBLEDRB]John 12:3-5[/BIBLEDRB]
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The_Centurion
Guest
A being that would be completely perfect would possess all things in their proper form.
Yes there is a huge difference since in the pagan faiths such as the ones you listed, the existence of the Pagan gods is dependent on something other than themselves. This would make them a being like any other in the universe and therefore not in my opinion worthy of worship. I would no more worship them than I would an alien with a higher intelligence.
That’s not true my friend you hold all faiths as being equally ridiculous.
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Publisher
Guest
This is a discussion board. It’s more than fair.
I don’t think that’s the difference in question. The difference is that the very terms religion, belief, pious, god… mean something slightly different in pagan religions than in monotheistic religions. That leads to all kinds of misunderstandings. The Romans regarded the early Christians as atheists, and Christians regarded pagans as devil worshippers.
What we think today of religion is a definition Lactantius wrote down in the 3rd/4th century. Cicero in his de re publica defined religio quite differently.
A neo-pagan once told that it is not important what you believe but what you honour, what you revere. From my experience pagans behold all kinds of different god-images from psychological archetypes to personalised forces of nature to ideals to transcendent or even immanet beings. But there is no quarrel among them which of those views is true. Simply because the idea of what they honour is the same, no matter how it implements itself in reality. There are no sects fighting each other over the question whether Thor has a red or a blond beard. Among monotheists such questions lead to century long wars.
**A religious belief says little to nothing about reality but a lot about the believer. When I look at religions from that viewpoint paganism is much more reasonable and appealing than Christianity./**QUOTE]
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From the discussion with my Wiccan friends…they see the Gods as PART of the very fabric of Creation which exists “naturally”…there is no “divinity” outside of Creation as all things are part of existence…he stated something very similar as the reason he is Pagan.**
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AnAtheist
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Are you psychic as you seem to know better what I think than me?
To be honest a couple of years ago you would have been right. I grew up with the idea that all faiths want basically the same and do basically the same. All this ecumenical nonsense.
In recent years, after talking to a lot of neo-pagans, having read some ancient philosophy from the pagans of old (Epicuros, Stoics, …) and having read a lot of literature about it, I have learned that there are indeed great differences between various types of faiths.
And so I really do think a modern, philosophical paganism without any esoteric nonsense is appealing. Very appealing.
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Lokabrenna
Guest
I think you would be in good company in the Pagan community!
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AnAtheist
Guest
I am not sure if I can change my nick here …I think you would be in good company in the Pagan community!
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Lokabrenna
Guest
You can always change your religious affiliation if you feel so inclined. I like your nick, though, very succinct!I am not sure if I can change my nick here …
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AnAtheist
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@Lokabrenna
I have a question: What do you think of Rudolf Simeks theory that the Vanir were made up by Snorri Sturloson, as they do not appear anywhere else in literature?
edit: The Vanir as a “family” opposed to the Aesir, not their members as such.
I have a question: What do you think of Rudolf Simeks theory that the Vanir were made up by Snorri Sturloson, as they do not appear anywhere else in literature?
edit: The Vanir as a “family” opposed to the Aesir, not their members as such.
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Lokabrenna
Guest
I’ve read that article, actually, and Simek’s always had a bit of an “issue” with the Vanir. His Dictionary of Northern Mythology calls the Vanir “lesser” gods, which I don’t think is entirely accurate (who decides which god is “lesser” and which ones aren’t, anyways?)
Someone actually published a critique a critique of the article. I think it makes a lot of assumptions, but it’s worth a read, IMHO: helsinki.fi/folkloristiikka/English/RMN/RMNNewsletter_2_May_2011.pdf
Personally, I think Simek’s article makes sense because then Norse mythology matches up with other Indo-European stories (there’s the Hindu story of the great war between the devas and the asuras, or the Greek story of the Olympian gods vs. the Titans). It also explains why the Vanir as a group aren’t mentioned in other sources outside of Snorri. It’s not like he’s saying that Njord, Freyr, and Freyja weren’t gods, just that they weren’t known as a separate tribe.
However–and this is actually an issue I have with Norse/Germanic recons in general–I think it’s difficult to definitively say that “X group believed this” when all we have to work with are fragments of the original texts and archaeological evidence from people who didn’t write their own stuff down. It’s almost like taking the New Testament and trying to reconstruct what Jews did based solely on what’s written in that text (assuming, of course, that they didn’t keep their own records, or, you know, survived to tell us anything about their traditions. I’m not saying Simek is wrong, he has been doing this for a long time, just making an observation based on what I’ve seen among the recon community.
Hm, maybe I should just change my name to “Norse Pagan”. I thought about it, but right now the term “Vanic” is the one that most people associate with the specific gods that I honour. I suppose if I were a strict reconstructionist, I’d have more of a problem, but I’m not a recon at all.
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duneman
Guest
what is the first recorded in history of people being pagan ???
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AnAtheist
Guest
So would you behold the Vanir to be a “category” that makes (spiritual) sense regardless of their literary origin?
Personally I like the interpetation of the Aesir-Vanir-war to be an allegory on the cultural change from hunters-gatheres (nature-bound) to settlers (civilisation). Much like the story of Kain and Abel but with a better ending, as Nature (Vanir) and Civilisation (Aesir) make peace after the clash.
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Lokabrenna
Guest
This is also a common interpretation, but it’s more the hunter-gatherers being represented by the Jotnar, agricultural-pastoral peoples are the Vanir, and the development of cities and towns is an Aesir thing. Their roles aren’t that cut and dry, though, because Freyr was associated with kingship and Thor was associated with farmers and the common people.
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Lokabrenna
Guest
The earliest civilization that left written records? Admittedly, this view is more Euro-centric, but Sumerian civilization is one of the earliest cultures for which we have written records that we can translate. I should mention, however, that Mesoamerican cultures are also very old, so are the civilizations that inhabited China and India.
Before that, we can only speculate regarding what prehistoric cultures believed.
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duneman
Guest
yea but pagan’s worship things like goat heads , no insult intended, question is, is pagan totally atheist or can they worship things planets or whateer so in regaurds to above question… excuse my ignorance on pagan’s , so pagans are people with no beliefs or just do whatever they want???
i will google this word and study on it
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Lokabrenna
Guest
The word “pagan” can mean “an irreligious, hedonistic person” or “someone who is neither Christian, Jewish, or Muslim”. When I use the term, I’m talking about “someone who is neither Christian, Jewish, or Muslim, who self-identifies as either Pagan or Heathen” which is a very broad definition. The self-identification part is important, as there are many traditions (Hinduism, Sikhism, Shinto, indigenous traditions) who definitely wouldn’t self-identify as Pagan.
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Lokabrenna
Guest
I can’t believe it took me so long to notice this statement!
Don’t take it personally, friend, but I think you’ve been reading too many accounts of “Satanic ritual abuse” and Medieval horror stories about Templars worshiping Baphomet and Jews doing horrible things to the Eucharist when the authorities weren’t watching. I know lots of Pagans who like to eat goat, but worship, and just the head? Do you have any idea of the stench that would leave? Ugh! Not on my carpet, thanks!
Most Pagans I know worship gods.
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duneman
Guest
thanks for clarifying … ill google and read on itI can’t believe it took me so long to notice this statement!
Don’t take it personally, friend, but I think you’ve been reading too many accounts of “Satanic ritual abuse” and Medieval horror stories about Templars worshiping Baphomet and Jews doing horrible things to the Eucharist when the authorities weren’t watching. I know lots of Pagans who like to eat goat, but worship, and just the head? Do you have any idea of the stench that would leave? Ugh! Not on my carpet, thanks!
Most Pagans I know worship gods.
curious which God you worship
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Lokabrenna
Guest
Oh, a bunch, but Freyja and Freyr are the ones I give the most attention to at this time.
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