Ask a Pagan, Part 2

[Warrenton]

Landnámabók

?

Ja, danke!

 

[Ahimsa]

Interesting Pagan documentary

 

[Vladd]

Which Gods did he say he worshiped? I’m a Pagan as well as some of you may already know. I’m into the Sumerian God Enki, anyone know who I’m talking about?

 

[Vladd]

The decay of classical paganism.

Please explain , thank you

 

[Lokabrenna]

Which Gods did he say he worshiped? I’m a Pagan as well as some of you may already know. I’m into the Sumerian God Enki, anyone know who I’m talking about?

I do, but it might be best to start a new thread at this point since this one’s old-ish. See the sticky about resurrecting old threads: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=624970

 

[Warrenton]

Please explain.

Hi Vladd.

We were talking about how religious understanding changed during late antiquity. The term I used was “decay.”

By way of example, in the 6th or 7th century BC, one could probably have found many people who believed in the stories contained in Homer and Hesiod more or less literally.

At that time, it could be said that the communities’ religion informed the people’s ethical, cosmological and theological understanding.

In Greece, by the 4th century BC, this was no longer the case, at least in Athens. A similar change would happen by the 1st century BC in Rome. The classical gods, when they were retained, became “forms” of the virtues or vices they represented in a neo platonic arrangement that was hugely popular among at least urban people. Other philosphers simply ignored the gods altogether, as one sees in Lucretius. In short, it became “pantheistic” in a manner similar to how many modern Hindi perceive their religion.

One can fairly question how far this process penetrated the rural heartlands of Arcadia, Apulia, Gaul. But granting that, even true pagan holdouts illustrate the point that classical paganism depends upon a certain worldview that is very hard to recreate today. It flourishes in what we today consider profound ignorance: the community must have little contact with or understanding of other people. Personally, I feel that “ignorance” does not do the classical (or archaic) mindset justice, because such a worldview is a spring of creativity: that is why we have no Hesiod today, and also why even after 2500 years, Homer is fresh in a way that “The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo” is not, and never will be.

But it did not, and probably could not, survive the cosmopolitanism of even the post Persian war period, or the Macedonian empire, let alone Rome. How can I believe in Apollo in the old way, when I know that Egypy has Ra, that Rome has Sol, that the Gauls have another god, and so forth? The idea that every people has its own god for the same physical or emotional trait as I do stretches credulity: the gods must be as diverse as men, hence as ordinary. In order to preserve theism, the gods became representative of divinity as such, vernacular expressions of universal truths, themselves having (at best) attenuated real existence.

That’s pantheism, and like a red giant is a decayed star, it is a survival of an earlier literal belief.

 

[charles_McNeel]

could the reason of there being no written word by jesus, be that maybe he was a visual artist who’s work spoke with a political and spiritual voice and the “fantasticness” of the his artistic ability ie. bringing to life clay birds at such an early age, have influenced and changed the many people who saw his paintings? If so, could it be possible any of the paintings (miracles) still exist or were possibly destroyed by the powerful whom opposed the christ man?

 

[Vladd]

Hi Vladd.

We were talking about how religious understanding changed during late antiquity. The term I used was “decay.”

By way of example, in the 6th or 7th century BC, one could probably have found many people who believed in the stories contained in Homer and Hesiod more or less literally.

At that time, it could be said that the communities’ religion informed the people’s ethical, cosmological and theological understanding.

In Greece, by the 4th century BC, this was no longer the case, at least in Athens. A similar change would happen by the 1st century BC in Rome. The classical gods, when they were retained, became “forms” of the virtues or vices they represented in a neo platonic arrangement that was hugely popular among at least urban people. Other philosphers simply ignored the gods altogether, as one sees in Lucretius. In short, it became “pantheistic” in a manner similar to how many modern Hindi perceive their religion.

One can fairly question how far this process penetrated the rural heartlands of Arcadia, Apulia, Gaul. But granting that, even true pagan holdouts illustrate the point that classical paganism depends upon a certain worldview that is very hard to recreate today. It flourishes in what we today consider profound ignorance: the community must have little contact with or understanding of other people. Personally, I feel that “ignorance” does not do the classical (or archaic) mindset justice, because such a worldview is a spring of creativity: that is why we have no Hesiod today, and also why even after 2500 years, Homer is fresh in a way that “The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo” is not, and never will be.

But it did not, and probably could not, survive the cosmopolitanism of even the post Persian war period, or the Macedonian empire, let alone Rome. How can I believe in Apollo in the old way, when I know that Egypy has Ra, that Rome has Sol, that the Gauls have another god, and so forth? The idea that every people has its own god for the same physical or emotional trait as I do stretches credulity: the gods must be as diverse as men, hence as ordinary. In order to preserve theism, the gods became representative of divinity as such, vernacular expressions of universal truths, themselves having (at best) attenuated real existence.

That’s pantheism, and like a red giant is a decayed star, it is a survival of an earlier literal belief.

Never thought of it like that, I always thought that the gods they worshiped were all the same just with different names due to their language but still had the same traits. I like how you explain this and it most deffinetly will be on my mind for a while, thank you

 

[TheHideOut]

Hello, I realized this thread is almost exactly one year old but there are a few things I would like to reply to.

NOW all that being said…there are Asatru that are “universalist” in belief and do believe that anyone can hear the “call”…but how can one hear the call of the Ancestors if they don’t share the Ancestors doing the calling?

This is exactly my experience as well. When I first got interested in Paganism, I never felt a connection to Gods that were outside of my ancestry. For example, Ive only been interested in both Celtic and Germanic Deities. The Gods and cultures of the ancient Gaels, Gauls, Franks, Normans, etc… have always appealed to me from the very beginning, and I feel I can communicate with them better than I could communicate with Christ when I was a Christian. But then when I read Hellenic, Egyptian, Sumerian/Babylonian myths I found them interesting with some great stories… but they just didn’t call out to me. Nothing about them seemed “real” to me. I hope I’m explaining it right.

There are some who are quite racist and actually believe that those of other races are inferior…but that’s not an Asatru belief necessarily…it’s the belief of racists…I’ve know “Christians” who believe those of African descent are somehow “inferior” to them as “white people”.

Well, I’m a person that tends to favor a homogeneous society, based on the empirical evidence, but yeah I agree with what you’re saying. The racist beliefs in Judaism & Christianity stem from the curse of Ham. This is apparent when you read Rabbinical writings like Maimonides.

 

[SteveVH]

This is exactly my experience as well. When I first got interested in Paganism, I never felt a connection to Gods that were outside of my ancestry. For example, I’m mostly of French & Irish descent and I’ve only been interested in both Celtic and Germanic Deities. My Celtic side comes from Gaels & Gauls obviously but I also felt a pull towards Germanic paganism whenever reading about the Franks or Normans. But then when I read Hellenic, Egyptian, Sumerian/Babylonian myths I found them interesting with some great stories… but they just didn’t call out to me. Nothing about them seemed “real” to me.

And the pagan Celtic and Germanic deities do seem real to you? Do you communicate with them? Have they revealed themselves to you? Just how are they “real” to you?

When I originally left Christianity this is also how I felt about the God of the Bible. I flirted with returning on occasions, especially during hard times, but I have always decided against it.

Big mistake. I will pray for you tonight.

 

[TheHideOut]

And the pagan Celtic and Germanic deities do seem real to you?

Yes

Do you communicate with them?

In a similar way in which Christians claim they communicate with their God. Some say through dreams, others say prayer and solitude. All of these apply to me. Of course, if I literally spoke to the Gods and had seen them with my own eyes then I wouldn’t need faith anymore. The same applies to Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc…

Have they revealed themselves to you?

Spiritually, yes. But if you’re asking for a physical sighting of the supernatural then I could tell you about that too. I have very clearly seen what is described as “Shadow People” back in May. I saw two of them, unmistakable and a very interesting experience. It isn’t proof of my religion, but it’s interesting nonetheless.

Just how are they “real” to you?

In the same way numbers are real. You can’t touch, lick, or smell numbers but you accept their existence. Although, Deities are more hidden than numbers.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Hmm, I think at this point it would be better to start a new thread, but I’ve started a couple new threads on this topic and TBH, I don’t know if anyone’s still interested.