Ask a Pagan

[Skadi]

Are you saying Christians made an unwilling sacrifice of pagans to God? If so I would like to know the reason why you believe this.

No, it is rather hypocritical to imply another religions immorality when ones own has lead to great death itself.

 

[Skadi]

Why is it wrong? Who declared it wrong? Immoral gods who do not obey the laws of morality and can do whatever they like? Or is morality an abstraction? In so far as the crusades are concerned what are you talking about? They were more or less concerned with fighting the muslims, the first crusade specifically about recapturing the holyland from Islamic control, and while I don’t think the crusades were perfect they ultimately did put at bay aggressive islamic expansionism, if that wasn’t stopped you probably might not be a pagan now, or you would be killed for being a pagan.

Its not declared wrong by the gods. But the gods don’t break their own rules of morality, besides maybe Loki who simply goes nuts twords the end of the mythological timeline.

The Christian god does things he has declared immoral more often in the bible than any Germanic diety.

Also your claim about the crusades is totally inaccurate, as Muslims in Palestine and Egypt were not an imminent threat to Europe. The Byzantines stood against Islam for another 300 years before the Ottomans arrived and overthrew them, and it was the Austrians in the 1600s who halted their advance, not the Crusaders. The 4th crusade sacked Constantinople, which actually harmed the potential defense of Europe. In fact the Crusades didn’t even fight the real Muslim threat to Europe at the time which was the Moors in Spain. The Crusades were simply a plot by Urban II to try and unite Europe under his banner and essentially make him emperor of Europe.

 

[RebeccaJ]

No, it is rather hypocritical to imply another religions immorality when ones own has lead to great death itself.

One claims to have gods that delight in human sacrifice, the other names murder and suicide a sin. Most people of any religion have an intent , at least, to follow what they believe. People are not infallible and do fail, sometimes at great consequence to others.

There are times where killing another is morally justified. In self defense or in just war, which briefly can be stated as self defense.

Is the willful sacrifice of humans to appease a god morally justifiable? If so, why?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Its not declared wrong by the gods. But the gods don’t break their own rules of morality, besides maybe Loki who simply goes nuts twords the end of the mythological timeline.

The Christian god does things he has declared immoral more often in the bible than any Germanic diety.

Also your claim about the crusades is totally inaccurate, as Muslims in Palestine and Egypt were not an imminent threat to Europe. The Byzantines stood against Islam for another 300 years before the Ottomans arrived and overthrew them, and it was the Austrians in the 1600s who halted their advance, not the Crusaders. The 4th crusade sacked Constantinople, which actually harmed the potential defense of Europe. In fact the Crusades didn’t even fight the real Muslim threat to Europe at the time which was the Moors in Spain. The Crusades were simply a plot by Urban II to try and unite Europe under his banner and essentially make him emperor of Europe.

The people of the early OT struggled with idolatry, including pagan beliefs that judged god(s) as powerful by victory in war. There has to be some understanding of the culture from which the authors lived, and acknowledgement that their expressions of God are influenced by their understanding of gods, in a pagan environment.

With the advent of Jesus Christ, our understanding of God is made clear. Never did He teach that the righteous can be known by their victories in war. His message is counter to that idea.

 

[FrancisBenedict]

Forgiveness is a divine attribute.

I have read a lot and found Pagan deities follow human nature but divine attributes take us to a higher level.

Why not listen to one who says

Forgive those who persecute you
Help the poor
Help the sick
Give all you can to help others
Everyone on Earth is your neighbour
Love God with all your heart

I think if you are basing your judgement on Christianity on the idea that Christ only came to save us from fiery hell you may be missing his main message which is that God is Love.

Jesus came not to judge us but to tell us about the Love of God for us.

Jesus released us from thinking we can be liberated by our own strength alone by explaining God comes to us it’s not just one way. And we are released from having to sacrifice material things to God’s love.

Please, think again sometimes and listen to a still small voice that talks to your heart.

And maybe read a little about St Francis and his love of God through creation.

God bless you+

 

[Porknpie]

1. Only one of the writers may have actually known Jesus, i dont remember exactly but I think it was John, and I was told that repeatedly in Theology class in high school.

John, Matthew and Peter (through his scribe Mark) as well as St Paul to whom Jesus appeared.

While first hand witnesses can be a good source of info for writing a historical record, it for instance cant hold up in court as it is here say.

first hand witnesses are not hearsay. They have direct testimony. And 11 of those 12 direct “apostle” witnesses died as martyrs. You haven’t answered the question of what did they have to gain by faking Jesus death and then being murdered for their belief?

The reason people are so critical of this is because imagine if I sat down with you and told you a story about how 40 years ago my friend kevin started claiming he was a diety and then after being killed by the government came back and hung out with us for 40 days. that’s an outlandish story, thats why its called faith.

Skadi, by this logic, you are giving a reason to believe in Christianity. The same one faith…belief in Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God plus the seven sacraments was preached throughout the world. All the apostles taught the same thing and those churches where they went held the same common faith. Christ taught his apostles, they taught their descendants…their descendants taught their successors…the faith was the same in all geographic areas.

the bible is just a collection of random books.

even if you don’t believe the bible was inspired, it is hard to argue that they are a collection of random books. Is this an argument that you want to state?

1. Do you remember the big rapture ruckus last year? how all these evangelicals were whipped up into a frenzy just by some men standing up and spewing some scripture and telling them that they would soon be chosen by god? And then on they day they claimed, nothing happened. But these folks wernt deterred just because the promise all these pastors had built up hadn’t been kept folks weren’t deterred. The -]priests/-] simply crafted some excuse for the lack of final judgement and set a new date. They were wrong again. But still, after all this, people still follow these leaders.

Yep and they are still following the wrong leaders but they weren’t following Catholic Priests, their local pastor maybe.

So, its not insane to say that even after prophecies fail people will continue to go along with their leaders because they are conditioned to.

agree

If people continue to follow those rapture pastors after they were wrong multiple times, why would people not continue to follow the apostles after a failed resurrection or a faked one.

Skadi, the Christians were persecuted and 11 of the 12 apostles were martyred believing Jesus Christ rose from the dead. You have yet to identify a reason for them to have done so. Suggest reading the Gospel of John for he was an eyewitness as you say and records for history the life and death of Jesus. Interesting it is Skadi that no one claims to have the body of Jesus. Not now, not ever. Wonder why?

 

[FrancisBenedict]

Remember James knew Jesus too! He wrote a book!

 

[Porknpie]

Remember James knew Jesus too! He wrote a book!

Francis.,.read my public profile. Lots of James. Good catch.

 

[Skadi]

One claims to have gods that delight in human sacrifice, the other names murder and suicide a sin. Most people of any religion have an intent , at least, to follow what they believe. People are not infallible and do fail, sometimes at great consequence to others.

There are times where killing another is morally justified. In self defense or in just war, which briefly can be stated as self defense.

Is the willful sacrifice of humans to appease a god morally justifiable? If so, why?

The gods do not demand human sacrifice. No where is it written that they demand it.

 

[Skadi]

The people of the early OT struggled with idolatry, including pagan beliefs that judged god(s) as powerful by victory in war. There has to be some understanding of the culture from which the authors lived, and acknowledgement that their expressions of God are influenced by their understanding of gods, in a pagan environment.

With the advent of Jesus Christ, our understanding of God is made clear. Never did He teach that the righteous can be known by their victories in war. His message is counter to that idea.

And yet how many times does god lay waste to whole cities and armies, killing thousands in the bible. The bible even makes the outrageous claim that god sent the Angel of Death to kill 100,000 Assyrians assaulting Jerusalem (it was probably actually a disease and the army was much smaller). If god loves all his children why is Isreal chosen over others and why does he constantly smite his children he claims to love rather than try and bring them to him? The god of the bible is an incredibly contradictory figure.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The gods do not demand human sacrifice. No where is it written that they demand it.

Is this reply semantic?

This reminds me of the story of Abram, who was asked by God to sacrifice his son. Abram, being obedient to God, prepared to do so and was at the point of killing his son when his hand was stayed by an angel.

This taught Abram (and the Hebrews) that human sacrifice was not demanded, required or desired by God. In a culture where human sacrifice was being performed to false gods, it was an important thing to know (and note).

If people are making human sacrifice to gods, the belief that the gods demand it, desire it or require must come from somewhere. Usually people imagine this requirement comes from the gods/goddesses they are worshipping, and not from themselves.

At any rate, you dodged the question. You’ve said you support human sacrifice, in a suicidal form. When is human sacrifice moral, and why?

 

[PRmerger]

The gods do not demand human sacrifice. No where is it written that they demand it.

Where is anything written about what the gods demand?

Also, could you please answer what sources you used to tell you about Nero’s persecution of the Christians?

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t agree with abortion but i do believe it should be an option in the case of rape.

Really? So you don’t believe that the unborn baby is a human being?

Or are you of the opinion that some human beings can be killed?

 

[Skadi]

John, Matthew and Peter (through his scribe Mark) as well as St Paul to whom Jesus appeared.

first hand witnesses are not hearsay. They have direct testimony. And 11 of those 12 direct “apostle” witnesses died as martyrs. You haven’t answered the question of what did they have to gain by faking Jesus death and then being murdered for their belief?

Skadi, by this logic, you are giving a reason to believe in Christianity. The same one faith…belief in Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God plus the seven sacraments was preached throughout the world. All the apostles taught the same thing and those churches where they went held the same common faith. Christ taught his apostles, they taught their descendants…their descendants taught their successors…the faith was the same in all geographic areas.

even if you don’t believe the bible was inspired, it is hard to argue that they are a collection of random books. Is this an argument that you want to state?

Yep and they are still following the wrong leaders but they weren’t following Catholic Priests, their local pastor maybe.

agree

Skadi, the Christians were persecuted and 11 of the 12 apostles were martyred believing Jesus Christ rose from the dead. You have yet to identify a reason for them to have done so. Suggest reading the Gospel of John for he was an eyewitness as you say and records for history the life and death of Jesus. Interesting it is Skadi that no one claims to have the body of Jesus. Not now, not ever. Wonder why?

A first hand account when written down by someone else is hearsay, as the author is transcribing what he was told.

This martyr argument brought up by Christians is alwase very frustrating, simply because no matter what example you give Christians refuse to believe the apostles would have died if they hadn’t seen Jesus resurrected. Once jesus died these men were the leaders of a burgeoning religious movement, that can bring many advantages even if one is being persecuted. who knows what about the early church the ancient christians left out, maybe these men wanted to travel the middle east being given wine and women and revered as a servant of the divine. Maybe, because they had sold out to jesus so much that they did the mental gymnastics to either convince themselves he was risen or were easily fooled by any sort of imposter. Like I said with the Rapture people, when a person truly, to their core believes something (particularly something that advances Ego, like being chosen of god) they can simply shove aside all logic and find a way to make it appear in their mind they are still correct.

Yes because it all came from one source, I dont debate Jesus or the apostles existence. and with regular councils every few decades in the early church they were able to keep thins pretty uniform. but uniformity dosn’t prove any sort of divinity.

No, they include traditional Jewish books and books which give a relatively consistent view of Jesus. other books such as Enoch and Mary Madeline were left out because they contained things early Christians didnt like. For instance the story of Jesus killing then resurrecting a local boy in his childhood.

Like I said, could there not have been an imposter of Jesus? In there desperate search for a resurrected Jesus someone who knew him and looked like him sizes on the opportunity to be worshiped as god and then leaves after 40 days when the authorities begin to look for him? The point of the rapture pastors story is not to show a teaching of the church, as it wasnt, but to show people will believe what they want. If someone believes something very strongly and that belief is shattered, they will look for even the slightest thing to put it all back together. In my opinion, early Christians falling for a fake Jesus is no different than rapture people convincing themselves they just calculated the date wrong. As for his body, id imagine the conspirators took it out into the desert and burned it or disposed of it in some other way.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And yet how many times does god lay waste to whole cities and armies, killing thousands in the bible. The bible even makes the outrageous claim that god sent the Angel of Death to kill 100,000 Assyrians assaulting Jerusalem (it was probably actually a disease and the army was much smaller).

Please go back and read what I wrote.

If god loves all his children why is Isreal chosen over others

We view the Bible as Salvation History, which means, the message for us is that God’s hand is in Salvation through time, from the fall to Jesus (and continues on to now). After the fall, the “chosen people” were a couple, Adam and Eve. Then God broadens His choseness to a family, in Noah. Then a tribe, Israel, then a Kingdom, David.

Jesus is God’s final and perfect Revelation, in Him and through Him all are made chosen. This includes you, as you have been baptized.

I think of it as God bringing us to Him, gently, carefully, as the sun rises. If the dark night suddenly became day every morning, we would be blinded and cringing every time the sun rose! God is patient, but has never ceased bring us (humans) to Him. Gently, carefully, waiting for us to understand and respond.

Jesus is God’s final and perfect Revelation, in Him and through Him all are made chosen. Baptism buries us with Christ, and we are raised with Him. You are chosen.

and why does he constantly smite his children he claims to love rather than try and bring them to him? The god of the bible is an incredibly contradictory figure.

God does bring us to Him constantly. God is both merciful and just. When you read the message of the OT, it is almost always one that shows God’s mercy and justice. The authors of the OT saw God’s justice and mercy in everything, everywhere, at every time. I would think, as someone like yourself who seeks God in the everyday events and nature, this would be understandable. (?)

God meets us where we are. Including in violent tribal cultures who are consistently at war, forever turning us towards Himself. We are not perfect, and can have a tendency to ascribe our own imperfections to God. God is perfect, and has revealed what perfect means, in His Son Jesus Christ.

Love God with all you heart, might, mind and strength. Love thy neighbor as thyself. LOVE is what perfects us, not war.

Hope that helps.

 

[Skadi]

Really? So you don’t believe that the unborn baby is a human being?

Or are you of the opinion that some human beings can be killed?

I believe people should take responsibility for their actions so I don’t believe abortion on demand should be available. In the case of rape however it isn’t the woman’s fault. I think if a child is aborted it should be done before it reaches the level of brain activity that could be considered “Conscious”.

 

[PRmerger]

I believe people should take responsibility for their actions so I don’t believe abortion on demand should be available. In the case of rape however it isn’t the woman’s fault. I think if a child is aborted it should be done before it reaches the level of brain activity that could be considered “Conscious”.

That didn’t answer my question. Do you believe the unborn baby is a human person?

Or are you of the opinion that some human beings can be killed?

 

[Skadi]

Please go back and read what I wrote.

We view the Bible as Salvation History, which means, the message for us is that God’s hand is in Salvation through time, from the fall to Jesus (and continues on to now). After the fall, the “chosen people” were a couple, Adam and Eve. Then God broadens His choseness to a family, in Noah. Then a tribe, Israel, then a Kingdom, David.

Jesus is God’s final and perfect Revelation, in Him and through Him all are made chosen. This includes you, as you have been baptized.

I think of it as God bringing us to Him, gently, carefully, as the sun rises. If the dark night suddenly became day every morning, we would be blinded and cringing every time the sun rose! God is patient, but has never ceased bring us (humans) to Him. Gently, carefully, waiting for us to understand and respond.

Jesus is God’s final and perfect Revelation, in Him and through Him all are made chosen. Baptism buries us with Christ, and we are raised with Him. You are chosen.

God does bring us to Him constantly. God is both merciful and just. When you read the message of the OT, it is almost always one that shows God’s mercy and justice. The authors of the OT saw God’s justice and mercy in everything, everywhere, at every time. I would think, as someone like yourself who seeks God in the everyday events and nature, this would be understandable. (?)

God meets us where we are. Including in violent tribal cultures who are consistently at war, forever turning us towards Himself. We are not perfect, and can have a tendency to ascribe our own imperfections to God. God is perfect, and has revealed what perfect means, in His Son Jesus Christ.

Love God with all you heart, might, mind and strength. Love thy neighbor as thyself. LOVE is what perfects us, not war.

Hope that helps.

So you believe the old testament gives an arrant view of god? because like it or not it says he condemned people like those in Jericho or the average citizens of Egypt during the plagues to death simply because they were not Jews. If the bible is inerrant on matters of faith then god really did put those people to death. Where was his demand to convert them? to bring them to him rather than kill them because they had been raised in a different religion?

I think this has probably degraded a bit from my original intention of this thread. I’m not here to attack Christianity, just answer questions, so i really am sorry if I have offended anyone with the last few posts.

 

[SteveVH]

A first hand account when written down by someone else is hearsay, as the author is transcribing what he was told.

This martyr argument brought up by Christians is alwase very frustrating, simply because no matter what example you give Christians refuse to believe the apostles would have died if they hadn’t seen Jesus resurrected. Once jesus died these men were the leaders of a burgeoning religious movement, that can bring many advantages even if one is being persecuted.

A burgeoning religious movement? When Jesus died they went into hiding, in fear for their lives. It was not until the risen Christ appeared and Holy Spirit descended upon them that they came out of hiding to preach the Gospel, regardless of the consequences. This “burgeoning religious movement” required the lives of the first thirty popes, and countless others as well.

who knows what about the early church the ancient christians left out, maybe these men wanted to travel the middle east being given wine and women and revered as a servant of the divine.

Yeah, that must of been it.

Maybe, because they had sold out to jesus so much that they did the mental gymnastics to either convince themselves he was risen or were easily fooled by any sort of imposter. Like I said with the Rapture people, when a person truly, to their core believes something (particularly something that advances Ego, like being chosen of god) they can simply shove aside all logic and find a way to make it appear in their mind they are still correct.

Or maybe Jesus really did rise from the dead. And maybe the Holy Spirit gave them the wisdom and courage and understanding to do what they did.

Yes because it all came from one source, I dont debate Jesus or the apostles existence. and with regular councils every few decades in the early church they were able to keep thins pretty uniform. but uniformity dosn’t prove any sort of divinity.

Councils every few decades? Could you name some of those?

No, they include traditional Jewish books and books which give a relatively consistent view of Jesus. other books such as Enoch and Mary Madeline were left out because they contained things early Christians didnt like. For instance the story of Jesus killing then resurrecting a local boy in his childhood.

They were not included because they did not measure up to the deposit of faith given to the Apostles by Jesus and handed down to the Church. They were not included because they were not true. The Church is protected from error by the Holy Spirit.

With that said, could there not have been an imposter of Jesus? In there desperate search for a resurrected Jesus someone who knew him and looked like him sizes on the opportunity to be worshiped as god and then leaves after 40 days when the authorities begin to look for him? The point of the rapture pastors story is not to show a teaching of the church, as it wasnt, but to show people will believe what they want. If someone believes something very strongly and that belief is shattered, they will look for even the slightest thing to put it all back together. In my opinion, early Christians falling for a fake Jesus is no different than rapture people convincing themselves they just calculated the date wrong. As for his body, id imagine the conspirators took it out into the desert and burned it or disposed of it in some other way.

You forgot one. It could have been aliens that reproduced an alternate Jesus in order to fool his disciples into thinking he had been resurrected. Then, after forty days, he went back to the mother ship. That sounds as plausible to me as what you have proposed. I had never heard the Jesus “double” theory. These men who had lived with him for three years, and even his own mother, could not tell the difference. Not to mention the Jesus “double” could apparently walk through locked doors. Amazing. I will pray for the salvation of your soul.

I am truly amazed at your efforts to discount your Creator.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So you believe the old testament gives an arrant view of god? because like it or not it says he condemned people like those in Jericho or the average citizens of Egypt during the plagues to death simply because they were not Jews. If the bible is inerrant on matters of faith then god really did put those people to death. Where was his demand to convert them? to bring them to him rather than kill them because they had been raised in a different religion?

I think this has probably degraded a bit from my original intention of this thread. I’m not here to attack Christianity, just answer questions, so i really am sorry if I have offended anyone with the last few posts.

Yours are the arguments of an atheist. I am a convert from atheism and recognize them. I have never thought it offensive to question.

I do think, to understand another’s beliefs, you have to at least attempt to understand the God(s) they worship. Everything is usually there.

No, I do not believe the OT presents an errant view of God. In some instances, it can be seen clearly that an individual is ascribing to God something of themselves.

As a Christian, I view God as the Creator of all things, including myself. My life is His. My life began, at His will, and will end at His will. It is not mine. It is not yours. It is not the 100000 at anywhere at any time. I did not decide when I was born or when I will die. Death is not The End. All will stand before God in judgement, and know both His Justice and His Mercy.

The OT is full of both, God’s justice and mercy, even in the instances of whole populations being killed, the mercy side of it is portrayed.

At one time I was like you, though atheist not pagan, and viewed God as unjust. I no longer have that view, but understand God is just. God does not willy nilly destroy, but purposely brings people to Him.

The people in the OT were called to repentance, repeatedly. God calls to all, unceasingly, without end, we are free to respond, or to rebel. God does not force you to Him. He calls, you are chosen, He waits for you to respond. He is NOT required to wait for your repsonse, forever.

You ascribe to God your own requirements, that is, that He indulge your every sin and offense. It should be clear to you, that He does not indulge us in our sins, but calls us to forsake them. Sending us His Son to provide the means, The Way, to Him. This is God’s ultimate Mercy. Mercy should not be confused with indulgence.

Your life is His, and you will die. You should have a care for your soul.