Ask a Pagan

[Layp3rs0n]

Skadi, I will keep you in prayer. However, I do have a question: I think it was the battle of ragnarok you said, the final battle…what happens if one dies in combat there? Are the dead unkillable or is there a second afterlife or is one annihilated? Good day, to you.

 

[rinnie]

So you do not believe Muhammad received gods revelation because it conflicts with your religious belief in the bible. I do not believe Jesus rose from the dead because it conflicts with my religious beliefs. Neither one have any empirical evidence to support them, just circumstantial. But, when your talking with a person of another faith, you may not have the same opinions as them, so talking about the resurrection like its a historical fact they just ignore can come off as snobby.

But yet you accept history. Do you believe who our first President was? If so why?

 

[joe371]

So you do not believe Muhammad received gods revelation because it conflicts with your religious belief in the bible. I do not believe Jesus rose from the dead because it conflicts with my religious beliefs. Neither one have any empirical evidence to support them, just circumstantial. But, when your talking with a person of another faith, you may not have the same opinions as them, so talking about the resurrection like its a historical fact they just ignore can come off as snobby.

Seems reasonable. As a 21st century Christian belonging to Jesus’ Catholic Church, I have found the empirical proof I needed to believe: a 20th century miracle that was witnessed by thousands of people in Fatima, consisting of both scoffing doubters (who were converted) and of course believers. The prediction of the children could not have been achieved without supernatural guidance, not to mention the supernatural miracle. I believe the children regarding who they say they were seeing, which speaks volumes in terms of the CC being founded by God. You however, choose, (I think) to not believe the children, claiming that other unknown spirits were responsible for the accurate prediction and miracle, but at the same time, you do not support that claim. If the miracle of Fatima does not convince you then nothing will.

If other religions lay claim to miracles (that are historically verifiable) then please name them so that I can investigate them in the same way I investigated Fatima?

 

[SteveVH]

Seems reasonable. As a 21st century Christian belonging to Jesus’ Catholic Church, I have found the empirical proof I needed to believe: a 20th century miracle that was witnessed by thousands of people in Fatima, consisting of both scoffing doubters (who were converted) and of course believers. The prediction of the children could not have been achieved without supernatural guidance, not to mention the supernatural miracle. I believe the children regarding who they say they were seeing, which speaks volumes in terms of the CC being founded by God. You however, choose, (I think) to not believe the children, claiming that other unknown spirits were responsible for the accurate prediction and miracle, but at the same time, you do not support that claim. If the miracle of Fatima does not convince you then nothing will.

If other religions lay claim to miracles (that are historically verifiable) then please name them so that I can investigate them in the same way I investigated Fatima?

One might also look at the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe. It can be verified historically that prior to Mary’s appearance in Mexico, the Church had very few converts from the Aztec Indians. Within months, and ensuing over the next decade, millions upon millions converted.

Perhaps even more remarkable is the image itself. I will not go into all the details but it is well worth researching. How people can just ignore these miraculous events is beyond me. Almost a willful stance against discovering the truth.

 

[joe371]

One might also look at the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe. It can be verified historically that prior to Mary’s appearance in Mexico, the Church had very few converts from the Aztec Indians. Within months, and ensuing over the next decade, millions upon millions converted.

Perhaps even more remarkable is the image itself. I will not go into all the details but it is well worth researching. How people can just ignore these miraculous events is beyond me. Almost a willful stance against discovering the truth.

Mind-blowing miracle as well.

 

[Skadi]

But yet you accept history. Do you believe who our first President was? If so why?

But there is a ridiculous amount of documentation that says Washington was the first president.

The only place you will find a record of Jesus’s resurrection is the bible, a religious document. The same as the Koran and the claims of Muhammad. Do you believe the entire bible to be entirely true? including that in roughly 7,000 years two people gave rise to 7 billion descendants.

You can believe Jesus rose, but you cant say that someone who dosnt is ignoring an established historical fact because it is a huge topic of debate with no concrete proof.

 

[Skadi]

One might also look at the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe. It can be verified historically that prior to Mary’s appearance in Mexico, the Church had very few converts from the Aztec Indians. Within months, and ensuing over the next decade, millions upon millions converted.

Perhaps even more remarkable is the image itself. I will not go into all the details but it is well worth researching. How people can just ignore these miraculous events is beyond me. Almost a willful stance against discovering the truth.

I watched a movie about it in spanish class in HS. But how do you handle other religions miracles? Christianity is not the only religion to claim them.

 

[PRmerger]

But there is a ridiculous amount of documentation that says Washington was the first president.

Well, since you seem to dismiss any text not written by a historian, a “ridiculous amount of documentation” that he was the first president needs to be dismissed by you, since a lot of it was not written by a historian.

 

[Skadi]

Skadi, I will keep you in prayer. However, I do have a question: I think it was the battle of ragnarok you said, the final battle…what happens if one dies in combat there? Are the dead unkillable or is there a second afterlife or is one annihilated? Good day, to you.

That is really never gone into in detail. The universe does go on after Ragnarok, but this part of the story is believed to be heavily influenced by Christianity because it bears striking resemblance to Adam and Eve and some think thats because monks wanted to portray Germanic religion as the predecessor to Christianity, Like Ragnarok had already happened and that Adam and Eve were the survivors, watched over by the last surviving God and his Elves (the equivalent to angels).

Research shows that the some of the first Germanic tribes encountered by the Romans may have not even had an after life theory. your just… dead. Other evidence suggests they may have thought the soul remained in the body, because some bodies found look to have been killed and then had several more mortal wounds inflicted. Its sort of up to the individual sense its never stated, but id guess you are absorbed into the “Is All” or wander as a free spirit, something along those lines.

 

[SteveVH]

But there is a ridiculous amount of documentation that says Washington was the first president.

The only place you will find a record of Jesus’s resurrection is the bible, a religious document. The same as the Koran and the claims of Muhammad. Do you believe the entire bible to be entirely true? including that in roughly 7,000 years two people gave rise to 7 billion descendants.

You can believe Jesus rose, but you cant say that someone who dosnt is ignoring an established historical fact because it is a huge topic of debate with no concrete proof.

While the Bible is historical, it is not a history book. Neither is it a science manual. The story of Genesis is written in poetic prose and tells the story of creation, man’s fall from grace and God’s promise to send a Savior. There are many factors one must take into account when reading this Book; Hebrew idioms, poetic genre, a completely different culture in a completely different time, etc… This is one book that cannot be read as one would read a modern piece of writing and cannot be judged on that basis.

 

[joe371]

But there is a ridiculous amount of documentation that says Washington was the first president.

The only place you will find a record of Jesus’s resurrection is the bible, a religious document. The same as the Koran and the claims of Muhammad. Do you believe the entire bible to be entirely true? including that in roughly 7,000 years two people gave rise to 7 billion descendants.

You can believe Jesus rose, but you cant say that someone who dosnt is ignoring an established historical fact because it is a huge topic of debate with no concrete proof.

If not 2 people (man and woman) then who or what in your opinion? Does Paganism weigh in in terms of an explanation? By the way I tend to agree with you on the president thing.

 

[Deltadeliquent]

Gee, where’s your documents for the existence of Odin?

In my experience of Neo-Paganism, most “believers” are really just wishing for a different world, where they can do magic and wear wonderful costumes and are not outcasts.

Not trying to be mean here, but I would bet money that you are young and wishing you were someone you are not. Talk to me I twenty years when you are more mature. You may not wind up a Catholic, but I bet you are no longer “into” Asatru or another Neo-Pagan type.

Blessed Be…

 

[mayogirl25]

Well, I was raised in a nominally Catholic house, we went to church about 7-8 times a year and i went every week at school, but as I got older and began exploring (first through books and TV and then through travel) the rest of the world I sort of fell into agnosticism. Eventualy I came to the conclusion that I would leave god alone and he would leave me alone.

Senior year of High school i took a world religions class, briefly considered Islam and then Shinto-Buddhism and then wound up getting into Wicca. I did that for a few months but in the end the religion is just a little to fluffy and effeminate for me, It relay is a religion that is geared more towards 20 year old women in its practice.

So, I stepped away from the magic based elements of paganism but retained my soft polytheistic world view and chose the Germanic pantheon to follow sense I’m ethnically German. Like I said im a soft polytheist so I dont take stories like the Poetic Edas literally, but see the gods as real entities which represent elements of the supreme divine in a culturally relative context.

Paganism is a broad category that cover alot of very dissimilar religions, but my particular one (Germanic/Asatru) Basically is a reconstructed religion of ancient German speaking peoples like the Anglo-Saxons, Goths, Vandals, Alemani, Suebi, Vikings, and Swedes. Most people know Odin and his son Thor but there are two entire tribes of Gods, the Aesir and Vannir, as well as numerous Jotun (Giants) who may intermary and be considered gods (Like Loki or Skadi) or in most cases serve as the antagonists and rivals of the gods. Valhalla, Odins great hall and the equivalent of heaven, is home to the greatest warriors who have died honorably in battle, and they feast and spar all day and night in preparation for Ragnarok, the battle at the end of the world. Those who do not go to Valhalla go to Hel, which unlike the christian Hell with 2 L’s is not a place of suffering but simply the next life.

As for texts, most that was written is lost to the ages. What does remain are scattered Runestones in northern Europe and some ancient manuscripts that were translated by christian monks in the 12th and 13th century. These manuscripts usually don’t get the sort of total trust that Christians give the bible because its a general consensus they were probably altered in some form by the monks who translated them.

So you worship what the Vikings worshipped? I’m trying to understand. It seems to me that type of worship died out a long time ago. The Romans worshipped the ethereal gods like Zeus and Aphrodite etc. and that also died out a long time ago. Honestly, I’m trying to understand but really aren’t you just a plain old run of the mill atheist now? I mean paganism is so yesterday and out of fashion. Your Catholic upbringing must weigh heavily and when the time is right you just might find that’s what you will come to when times get hard. I’ll pray for you.

 

[mayogirl25]

Gee, where’s your documents for the existence of Odin?

In my experience of Neo-Paganism, most “believers” are really just wishing for a different world, where they can do magic and wear wonderful costumes and are not outcasts.

Not trying to be mean here, but I would bet money that you are young and wishing you were someone you are not. Talk to me I twenty years when you are more mature. You may not wind up a Catholic, but I bet you are no longer “into” Asatru or another Neo-Pagan type.

Blessed Be…

I’d also bet on this person being very young and probably into wearing bearskins and cattle horns on his/her head and all that goes along with it.

 

[rinnie]

But there is a ridiculous amount of documentation that says Washington was the first president.

The only place you will find a record of Jesus’s resurrection is the bible, a religious document. The same as the Koran and the claims of Muhammad. Do you believe the entire bible to be entirely true? including that in roughly 7,000 years two people gave rise to 7 billion descendants.

You can believe Jesus rose, but you cant say that someone who dosnt is ignoring an established historical fact because it is a huge topic of debate with no concrete proof.

But where is the proof. Remember what you said you don’t believe everything that was written? Do I believe the entire bible is correct? Of course I do. Why? Simple because it is the word of God.

Speaking of documents. How do you explain the millions through the years that claim that with the help of God they are cured.

Explain this to me, Why is it that hundreds and thousands are in these rehabs today for addictions, but it seems that the only ones that can truly beat these addictions seem to be going to Jesus Christ for strength and help?

Could it be possible that the word of God that you seem to reject as being the truth could indeed be truth.

How is it possible thousands years later these words seem to be true. And more people can swear to you today as yesterday to being the truth. How can so many People continue to say, they themselves were unsure of the truth, but now to this day testify to Christ?

Anyway here are the true words that ring true today.

Lets see what they say about addiction. Isn’t it true until you admit your addiction there is no hope for you to be cured. Funny how God said that like forever.

Proverbs He who conceals his sin does not prosper but whoever confesses and renounces them find mercy.

James, Therefore confess your sin so that you may be healed.

Here is the key to beating ANY addiction,

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you and you will be my witness in Jersusalem, In all Judea and Samaria and to the ENDS of the World.

Pretty powerful words huh? How can they be true after all this time. No actually how can anyone reject them not to be true is the question.

How do you explain millions in this world who do not even KNOW Christ, but will admit they have given into a higher power that healed them?

And that higher power Has to be Christ. Because anyone who has given into any other power except him with his love and mercy have come to destroy themselves and others.

Now I can quote you words given to us by God until the end of our life. But my question is, how can people to this day swear to you and others that it was ONLY by the help of God through his Holy Spirit that they learned to survive their tragedy’s?

I mean really. Because your average person makes no money for professing Christ. Look at us here, we get no money, no fame, no appreciation. But we don’t want that. How do you explain that?

 

[rinnie]

But there is a ridiculous amount of documentation that says Washington was the first president.

The only place you will find a record of Jesus’s resurrection is the bible, a religious document. The same as the Koran and the claims of Muhammad. Do you believe the entire bible to be entirely true? including that in roughly 7,000 years two people gave rise to 7 billion descendants.

You can believe Jesus rose, but you cant say that someone who dosnt is ignoring an established historical fact because it is a huge topic of debate with no concrete proof.

By the way what about the people who came to know Christ by word of mouth? He didn’t even need all this rediculous amount of documentation.

It is by the works of the Holy Spirit that no documentation is needed for millions of people.

Anotherwards the Holy Spirit does not need any pen and paper to prove a point! The Holy Spirit moves through people not books!

But truly how do you explain that more people all over the world Know who Jesus Christ was then our first president, and he had all the historical proof?

By the way Jesus said his word would be spread to the ends of the earth. How was that possible? Lucky guess?

 

[mlamg]

But where is the proof. Remember what you said you don’t believe everything that was written? Do I believe the entire bible is correct? Of course I do. Why? Simple because it is the word of God.

Speaking of documents. How do you explain the millions through the years that claim that with the help of God they are cured.

Explain this to me, Why is it that hundreds and thousands are in these rehabs today for addictions, but it seems that the only ones that can truly beat these addictions seem to be going to Jesus Christ for strength and help?

Could it be possible that the word of God that you seem to reject as being the truth could indeed be truth.

How is it possible thousands years later these words seem to be true. And more people can swear to you today as yesterday to being the truth. How can so many People continue to say, they themselves were unsure of the truth, but now to this day testify to Christ?

Anyway here are the true words that ring true today.

Lets see what they say about addiction. Isn’t it true until you admit your addiction there is no hope for you to be cured. Funny how God said that like forever.

Proverbs He who conceals his sin does not prosper but whoever confesses and renounces them find mercy.

James, Therefore confess your sin so that you may be healed.

Here is the key to beating ANY addiction,

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you and you will be my witness in Jersusalem, In all Judea and Samaria and to the ENDS of the World.

Pretty powerful words huh? How can they be true after all this time. No actually how can anyone reject them not to be true is the question.

How do you explain millions in this world who do not even KNOW Christ, but will admit they have given into a higher power that healed them?

And that higher power Has to be Christ. Because anyone who has given into any other power except him with his love and mercy have come to destroy themselves and others.

Now I can quote you words given to us by God until the end of our life. But my question is, how can people to this day swear to you and others that it was ONLY by the help of God through his Holy Spirit that they learned to survive their tragedy’s?

I mean really. Because your average person makes no money for professing Christ. Look at us here, we get no money, no fame, no appreciation. But we don’t want that. How do you explain that?

You know, there is no logic in debating one religion vs another. The circular logic in this thread will just go on and on, and no one is getting anything out of it. Case in point:

“Do I believe the entire bible is correct? Of course I do. Why? Simple because it is the word of God.” Who said it’s the word of God? THE BIBLE DID.

Round and round and round and round and round. I’m surprised this thread hasn’t been closed yet.

 

[mlamg]

But truly how do you explain that more people all over the world Know who Jesus Christ was then our first president, and he had all the historical proof?

By the way Jesus said his word would be spread to the ends of the earth. How was that possible? Lucky guess?

They called it Rome, the greatest empire in the world. Once Christianity was the ‘official religion’ of Rome, it spread quickly. Once it spread, why wouldn’t the world eventually hear about it after 2000 years?? That’s not to say the entire world practices that religion. The entire world also has heard of and knows about Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and most other religions.

But I’m sure you’ll use more circular logic to explain it.

 

[rinnie]

You know, there is no logic in debating one religion vs another. The circular logic in this thread will just go on and on, and no one is getting anything out of it. Case in point:

“Do I believe the entire bible is correct? Of course I do. Why? Simple because it is the word of God.” Who said it’s the word of God? THE BIBLE DID.

Round and round and round and round and round. I’m surprised this thread hasn’t been closed yet.

No actually it was not the bible. It was Christ and his CC that told us. There was no bible in the beginning.

The bible is only book, it does no teach. The Holy Spirit is who teaches and reveals all truth through the Holy Catholic Church.

The bible does not preach, teach, or interpret the word of God. Just thought I would add that!

 

[ffg]

The thread is alive because it’s a good one. Skadi and others have continued entertaining the discussion.

I applaud him for continuing through the evolution of the thread from ‘ask’ to ‘discuss’.

I don’t know if the OP is still around, but there is one point that we brushed over a few days ago that I wanted to delve into a little, if it so goes that way.

Surrounding our existence today / here on earth. There is a lot of discussion about salvation (absolute truth) on this forum. Most related to a later place after earthly death.

Something that might help people better see the meaning of the Church and understand why it does not move on matters of faith and morals -

The Church is not meant for after death, it’s meant for NOW. Jesus didn’t say, he was creating something to be carried on forever, it was created for us, while here on earth.

It is here to help people live meaningfully now. Obviously, teaching includes the great hope to be ready for that later place, but the focus is on living the gospel message.

The teaching isn’t that sacraments get us to heaven, it’s that proper observance of sacraments is a part of living the gospel message and can provide the graces to help our weak selves live in this world full of sin and chaos.

To stay strong today when weakness looks desirable.