Ask a Pagan

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Various crimes in the world within the past several days:

[6/18/13] - India villagers kill two for witchcraft

[6/13/13] - Saptari woman thrashed on witchcraft accusation

[6/10/13] - Witchcraft Accusations Lead to Torture, Murders
**WARNING (article photo of victim, reader discretion advised)

[6/7/13] - Witchcraft practices are on the rise in the Pacific islands:
“Lack of education and a continued force of Christianity on the native people of the Pacific is continuing to cause issues such as unnecessary murders and other abuse.”

[5/28/13] - Saudi Arabia Sentences 2 Women to 10 Years/1000 Lashes for Witchcraft

[5/19/13] - Women in Nepal tortured for witchcraft

Not to mention the multitude of attacks and murders occurring in Africa, too numerous to cite but one example:

[5/13/13] - ibtimes.co.uk/articles/469216/20130520/branded-witch-bbc-democratic-republic-congo-kindoki.htm
Kevani Kanda’s BBC documentary Branded a Witch uncovers horrific stories of child abuse in the name of fighting witchcraft

These are just in recent weeks and, sadly, merely a few of the reports happening around the world. Worst of all, most involve accusations similar the European witchcraft trials - people falsely accused for ignorance and/or spitefulness rather than actual reasons.

Thus Neopagans in these parts of the world are well underground and dare not let their beliefs known. One example, a young Pagan in Syria given the alias “Yana” by an American friend so as not to jeopardize any more lives. She was raped and tortured then murdered after her brother discovered she was Pagan and reported her:

In Syria and Egypt, Pagan voices fall silent

In Memory: Yana
 
The reason for that is that your gods were for your own people. They prayed in battle that their gods would protect their people and prevail over the gods of the other people that were protecting them. There was no reason for them to spread their faith.
Wait. Didn’t/don’t Christians consider themselves Soliders of Christ, thus one of the reasons they adopted the word “pagan” after fashion of the Roman milites to refer to the cultural religions of the persons they sought to convert?

And are you saying Christians didn’t/don’t pray for their god to protect them and theirs in battle and to prevail over other “false” gods and religions?
With Christianity there was now a belief in one God who exists for all people, regardless or race, tribe or ethnicity.
Which isn’t anything different from various pagan religions and gods. Isis was worshiped from Egypt to Britain. The Greeks didn’t view their gods as only for ethnic Greeks. The worship of various gods of various peoples could be found in, and at times became part of, worship in other cultures than their origin.
No longer could you expect God to simply protect your people, God was here for the whole of humanity. His Church was a Church for all men, a universal church, a catholic Church. It is therefore the duty of this Church to spread across the globe and be a Church made up of all men.
What makes you think that’s anything different regarding other deities? The only real difference is neither they or their worshiper demand or try to convince others worship them.

You way of comparison seems to amount to “Christianity is so noble and wonderful and reasoned while others, not so much”. :confused:
 
No one has actually confirmed with God, talking to him face to face, that the beliefs and practices of ANY religion are actually true. Your beliefs based on the bible and your church tradition lead you to believe it’s true. But as far as I know, you don’t have God’s phone number.

OK, now I’m done. Bye all.
Yes. that was true once in history.Humanity was uncertain about him. But God’s spirit guided them to teach them morality. Their cultures and philosophical thoughts are result of that. It is result of their search for God. But now he revealed himself to us through Jesus. As a christian how can I say I don’t know him. If you are sure that your faith is not true, then why you are wasting time in following that.?. I am believing in Jesus because I believe that he is the way ,truth, and life . If you are uncertain about the truth in your religion , that doesn’t mean that my faith should also be uncertain.

For meeting God I don’t need his phone number. I meets him in Eucharist. I serves him through the poor and needy persons around me. I don’t need to search for him here and there, he is inside me. God is love.

We dont need a phone number to contact him. He has provided us with a wifi network to contact him. That is prayer
 
Well, in my own experience, it’s because I base my beliefs on a direct experience of the Divine. I don’t follow dogma, I follow God and the experience of God in my own personal life. How can I possibly tell anyone else that their experience of God is wrong?
Personal experience with the divine, however the person perceives it or what religion he belongs to, IS unavoidable individualistic at its core. One can be told what to believe, but each person still processes that standard belief through his own mental faculties and personal experience. People may share similar relatable experiences but ultimately it’s two different persons having their own experience.

It’s not far different from a shared event. Ask 5 people who experienced the same event at the same time and each will articulate it in their own words, with somethings being more prominent for one person and something else for another.
 
Today the vast majority of magical practitioners are very against using magic to harm others. there are of course those Satanists out there who would try to so otherwise, and others, but they are outliers. Damm Warlocks giving new age folks a bad name.
Though more to the point is whether the individuals being accused actually engaged in actions they’re accused of and what is it that’s being labeled “witchcraft”. Whether witchcraft is a real thing or not is separate from being accused. Just because someone makes allegations doesn’t make it so - thus why we have a legal system, for example. In most instances such as in Africa, foremost individuals are targeted and ostracized because of the accusers’ own motivations. There are African villages of nothing but abandoned elderly, widowed women and children who have been ostracized from their home villages as “witches”. Accused by family and neighbors because what it boils down to is they were inconvenient for the accusers. Much like the European witch trials, they’re accused because they angered someone or had property another coveted or were widowed or elderly or orphaned and would be an unwanted burden. Label them witch, whip up some hysteria and they are either killed or ostracized.
 
Then why keep bringing it up? I’m not trying to ‘win’ any argument, I’m just pointing out our Church’s position. I thought that that’s what you were interesting in finding out about.
It keeps coming up because your manner of approach does give the appearance of trying to win. We can only know whether that’s your intent by you saying it is or isn’t. But each exchange is approached as all other religions and gods are false and irrational, period. It does make dialog seem futile if every effort has to address the recurring assumption, “Christianity is right, you need to prove you’re not false.” Many, if not most, non-Christians are not unfamiliar with your Church’s position, either because they’ve been subjected to such approach before and/or because they were once part of your religion and left it. However, this is an opportunity to learn about other religions if so inclined and comparison doesn’t inherently require “we’re right, you’re wrong”. Comparison doesn’t need a “winner” other than perhaps a win in the sense of dispelling fallacies and finding some parallels. And learning about other beliefs does not mean needing to adopt or accept what they do, but learn to distinguish fact from fiction/propaganda about them.
 
Since there’s some unfamiliarity with discrimination and atrocities still be committed upon Pagans, with one person believing such no longer exists in the West, I gathered some examples of what’s happening not only in the US but around the world:

There is enough discrimination against Pagans that it merits its own Wikipedia article, which gives a few examples of the more prominent legal cases.

For years ethnic Greeks in Greece have dealt with discrimination and violence because of the Greek Orthodox Church’s status as a state religion. An MSNBC segment gives a basic idea (youtube video): youtube.com/watch?v=617qc8gmta8

In 2012 the University of Derby conducted a survey of religious groups that found “substantial” discrimination against religious minorities and movements which includes Pagans in the UK. In part: “The project’s initial findings have identified …] substantial reporting of unfair treatment on the basis of religion or belief continuing across key areas of people’s lives …] reports of unfair treatment indicate that it continues to particularly affect certain sectors (employment, education and the media) and religious groups (Muslims, Pagans and New Religious Movements).”

The Huffington Post interviewed Paul Weller, Professor of Inter-Religious Relations at the University of Derby, who told Huffington Post UK: a “particular frequency and severity in the complaints relating to” Pagans and new religious movements. “There are many instances of discrimination against Christians, but the discrimination against new religions is more ‘in-your-face’, verging on hatred. For Pagans, many of them have kept their religion secret, for fear it would be misunderstood.”

A few examples of discrimination in the US:

Attacks at Pagan Author’s Home Raise Concerns (Florida)

Google Sued For Sexual, Religious Discrimination

Missouri Library Sued for Barring Wiccan Websites

Whistle-blowing witch grounded by TSA
Wiccan is fired after complaint about casting spells — and after she complained about lax security at the airport

Christians Desecrate Wiccan Religious Site at Air Force Academy

What Happens to Real Pagan Politicians
[Kennebec County Democrat Chair Harassed Because Of Her Paganism]

Being pagan in Georgia: Do schools promote some religions while denigrating others?

Teenager convicted for harassing Pagan (UK)

In Memory: Yana
angelqueen.org/2013/06/08/interfaith-outreach-in-bangladesh-muslim-mob-raids-catholic-seminary-violently-beating-priest-and-students/

independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/the-big-question-in-2006-are-catholics-really-being-discriminated-against-in-scotland-417777.html

independent.co.uk/news/widespread-discrimination-against-catholics-in-ruc-1288035.html

telegraph.co.uk/news/5056680/The-Act-of-Settlement-300-years-of-discrimination-against-Roman-Catholics.html

elblogador.blogspot.ch/2006/07/proof-northern-catholics-still-being.html

marknelza.blogspot.ch/2012/11/stop-discrimination-against-catholics.html

news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/dont-discriminate-against-catholics-pell-20130529-2nbdz.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Saudi_Arabia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Pakistan#Violence

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Mexico#1917_Mexican_Constitution

And not to mention

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism

and

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism_in_literature_and_media

So, as you can see, Catholicism has also had its fair share of discrimination, violence, and general ill-will. You can find such news items for virtually any religion, so while religious bigotry and discrimination are unfortunate events that need to be eradicated, I am not quite sure how this adds to your argument.
 
No disrespect to anyone but you have to wonder why would someone come on a Catholic site and post something like this and then not expect us to show where this is in direct conflict with Christ and the teachings of his Church.
Because the discussion isn’t about whether other religions comply with your church’s teachings. That’s like expecting Catholicism to be measured by the ways of another religion. Should Catholicism be deemed “false” or “delusional” etc. because it’s different from what another religion holds true?
While I agree these people are free to practice these rituals, they must have known we have a right and duty of Christians to show where they are in direct conflict with the word of God.😃
See above. 🙂
You come on and say ask me anything. Then when we disagree with what you say we are condmened.🤷
There’s a difference between “this is what we believe/practice and how it differs from yours” versus “this is the one right way, you’re wrong and hopefully one day see we’re right and you’re wrong”.
 
I think the term stems partially from some resentment, similar to the way gay people have sense adopted the word queer, which was and still can be considered an insult.

Personally I like it, and prefer it to “Heathen” which is the term alot of Germanic pagans use, because it both identifies the larger movement as a whole and it is an accurate description of me, I realy am a “country dweller”.
Plus not all that’s generalized as “pagan” identifies as such. While often applied to “anything that’s non-Abrahamic” not all religions self-identify as “pagan” like Hinduism or Native American beliefs. Same for Reconstructionist religions like various Heathenry, Hellenismos (Greek), Religio Romana (Roman), Kemeticsm (Egyptian) and Romuva (Batlic) - they’re “neo” in the sense of being modern but usually prefer “polytheistic” and reject “pagan” because of the prejudicial origins and not being anything worshipers called themselves. There’s also some differences between Recon religions and the bulk of Neopagan religions.
 
Because the discussion isn’t about whether other religions comply with your church’s teachings. That’s like expecting Catholicism to be measured by the ways of another religion. Should Catholicism be deemed “false” or “delusional” etc. because it’s different from what another religion holds true?

See above. 🙂

There’s a difference between “this is what we believe/practice and how it differs from yours” versus “this is the one right way, you’re wrong and hopefully one day see we’re right and you’re wrong”.
Since your statement sums up moral relativism, which is the true god of your religion, I’ll ask:

What behaviour makes a ‘bad’ pagan?
 
So, as you can see, Catholicism has also had its fair share of discrimination, violence, and general ill-will. You can find such news items for virtually any religion, so while religious bigotry and discrimination are unfortunate events that need to be eradicated, I am not quite sure how this adds to your argument.
You seem to have entirely missed the purpose of my post. I didn’t say only Pagans are discriminated against. Further, if you’ll note, even one of the links I listed (the Univ. Derby survey) expressly noted major religions are not without their share of discrimination. The list was to demonstrate that yes, minority religions are very much and regularly dealing with discrimination and persecution in almost every facet of living, including still in the West (which another thought such doesn’t happen).

Sorry you went to the effort of trying to refute something I didn’t state. 🤷
 
You seem to have entirely missed the purpose of my post. I didn’t say only Pagans are discriminated against. Further, if you’ll note, even one of the links I listed (the Univ. Derby survey) expressly noted major religions are not without their share of discrimination. The list was to demonstrate that yes, minority religions are very much and regularly dealing with discrimination and persecution in almost every facet of living, including still in the West (which another thought such doesn’t happen).

Sorry you went to the effort of trying to refute something I didn’t state. 🤷
I didn’t refute something you did or didn’t state because I have no idea what it is you wanted to state; you’ll notice I said I had no clue how it added to your argument.
 
I didn’t refute something you did or didn’t state because I have no idea what it is you wanted to state; you’ll notice I said I had no clue how it added to your argument.
His post that you were responding to was very clear as to the point of his post, right at the beginning:
Since there’s some unfamiliarity with discrimination and atrocities still be committed upon Pagans, with one person believing such no longer exists in the West, I gathered some examples of what’s happening not only in the US but around the world:
 
Since your statement sums up moral relativism, which is the true god of your religion, I’ll ask:

What behaviour makes a ‘bad’ pagan?
From the Hellenic perspective, all of our gods are true. If by what behavior makes a “bad pagan” you mean per Hellenic religion, it’s not living a life of virtue.

Generalizing “what makes a bad pagan” is a lot like generalizing “what makes a bad christian” - e.g., denominations maintain their opinions about each other whether they’re true or heretical. Would a Catholic be a “bad Christian” just because it differs from another denomination?

I think most people of any religion would generally agree endeavoring to do good, live morally well and cultivating a relationship with one’s god/s are essential.
 
The list was to demonstrate that yes, minority religions are very much and regularly dealing with discrimination and persecution in almost every facet of living, including still in the West (which another thought such doesn’t happen).
Discrimination means specifically denying someone a certain right, and treating them in a negative fashion because of what they are. Every single grouping of people could find a small number of instances where discrimination occurs, but this is very different from a culture of discrimination against that group of people. Other than by the usual number of individual ignorant people, pagans are not discriminated against in the West.

During my experience as a pagan, pagans were regularly talking about how pagans were discriminated against, but interestingly I never met one who had been discriminated against himself because he was a pagan. I just think that pagans tend to like to think of themselves as a persecuted minority (usually blaming Christians for this). I don’t know why they want to think of themselves as this, but my experience is that a great many of them do. They bang on about witch burnings and the like, that happened in Medieval Europe many hundreds of years ago (as if that is somehow remotely relevant today). They tend to make little reference though to the many Christians that were crucified or fed to the lions by pagans.
 
The Yogic tradition and all its schools of philosophy, including Hinduism/Sanatana Dharma.
Can you show me in which Vedas or Hindu scriptures the term Hinduism and Sanathana Dharma has mentioned?. Term hindu is originated from Hind which means India in persian language and Hindu means people of India. It is the british people in 19nth century,first used the term to identify a specific religion. Constitution of India does not describes what is hindu, but it mentions to whom hindu law applies to. It mentions that all those people other than christians and muslims, who are living in the geographical boundaries of India.

Sanathana dharma was the name used by Swami vivekananda (in 19nth century) to denote the religion of India.

Before that it was applied to upper class people only (brahmins, kshathriyas and vaisyas). Lower class people (Shudras (servant class) , Dalits (blacks), and Adivasis (Animists) are not considered as hindus. They are not allowed to enter into hindu temples. Their strange explanation for that is , they had done bad deeds in their previous birth, so they deserves sufferings in this birth. It is the christian missionaries , considered them as human beings. They educated them. That time these upper class people tried to stop missionaries saying that if you serve them and provide them with education and food, then they have to suffer in their next birth too. As these birth and rebirth theory brands cause of all sufferings to sins of previous birth, all black people, poor people and sick are sinners in previous birth and are born to serve upper caste people whose virtues in previous birth caused them to take birth as an upper caste person.

When these low caste people started converting to christianity, they tried many tricks to prevent conversion. Even attack and killings of missionaries are common now. New hindu monastries originated functioning like christian missionaries, their main aim is to prevent people from going to christian charity institutions , there by preventing people to learn about christinity.

There are lot of fundamentalists hindu groups , preaching hatred speech against christians. They are preaching hatred towards christianity through websites, their news papers, circulars etc. Here one website which showers hatred towards christianity among common hindu people. T

christianaggression.com/about_need.php

And my dear mlamg, you are considering this as ideal community , religion and ideal philosophy.
 
Discrimination means specifically denying someone a certain right, and treating them in a negative fashion because of what they are. Every single grouping of people could find a small number of instances where discrimination occurs, but this is very different from a culture of discrimination against that group of people. Other than by the usual number of individual ignorant people, pagans are not discriminated against in the West.
Is it though? Don’t Christians maintain there’s a culture of discrimination due to “a small number of instances” of someone complaining about a Christian icon (e.g., creche, Ten Commandments) displayed on public property, or if someone says “Season’s Greetings” or similar instead “Merry Christmas”? Most Christians have not personally experienced discrimination but the same attitude you attribute to Neopagans can be said to be exhibited as well. Is it not a culture of discrimination when “it’s ok” to blog websites on pagan religions in a public library, or give preference to Christian clergy offering Christian prayer at civic meetings or maintaining religion should be allowed in public schools (with religion = Christian)? Or is it that it’s a culture of discrimination when something is deemed so by Christians, but it’s just a lot of hollow wailing when done by another religious group?
During my experience as a pagan, pagans were regularly talking about how pagans were discriminated against, but interestingly I never met one who had been discriminated against himself because he was a pagan…
Please see above. Most Christians have not personally experienced any discrimination either yet that seems little to dampen the assertions.
I just think that pagans tend to like to think of themselves as a persecuted minority (usually blaming Christians for this). I don’t know why they want to think of themselves as this, but my experience is that a great many of them do. They bang on about witch burnings and the like, that happened in Medieval Europe many hundreds of years ago (as if that is somehow remotely relevant today). They tend to make little reference though to the many Christians that were crucified or fed to the lions by pagans.
That’s the pot calling the kettle black, as noted above. And Christians were persecuted by Rome through the laws of the empire. That was not the act of Roman religion, it was an official act of the Roman state.

(And in case there’s any question, persecution was not condoned by Hellenic religion, either then or now.)
 
Is it though? Don’t Christians maintain there’s a culture of discrimination due to “a small number of instances” of someone complaining about a Christian icon (e.g., creche, Ten Commandments) displayed on public property, or if someone says “Season’s Greetings” or similar instead “Merry Christmas”? Most Christians have not personally experienced discrimination but the same attitude you attribute to Neopagans can be said to be exhibited as well.
No. I do not hear my fellow Catholics talking about discrimination whenever we meet at Church social gatherings. When I attended pagan social gatherings, on the other hand, there was plenty of talk about how pagans were discriminated against.
Is it not a culture of discrimination when “it’s ok” to blog websites on pagan religions in a public library, or give preference to Christian clergy offering Christian prayer at civic meetings
Because Christainity is the largest faith in this nation, and is deeply engrained in our culture. Pagans make up a very tiny minority, they represent very few people, that is why it would not be appropriate to have them lead prayer at public meetings.
or maintaining religion should be allowed in public schools (with religion = Christian)?
Incorrect. maintained schools in the UK where there is a majority of pupils of another particular faith (Mulism, Sikh etc.) can opt to have their daily act of worship relating to that particular Faith.
Or is it that it’s a culture of discrimination when something is deemed so by Christians, but it’s just a lot of hollow wailing when done by another religious group?Please see above. Most Christians have not personally experienced any discrimination either yet that seems little to dampen the assertions.
Most Christians do not go about claiming discrimination, most pagans (or at least a very sizeable minority) do.
.
That’s the pot calling the kettle black, as noted above. And Christians were persecuted by Rome through the laws of the empire. That was not the act of Roman religion, it was an official act of the Roman state.)
That’s a nice cop-out. Pagans committed the acts, but it was not their fault. Despite being fed to the lions and crucified in their thousands, because of their Faith, it was nothing to do with the pagans.
(And in case there’s any question, persecution was not condoned by Hellenic religion, either then or now.)
They didn’t exactly raise their voices to condemn it, did they? That didn’t stop pagans turning up day after day to watch Christians being ripped apart by wild beasts, for entertainment.
 
No. I do not hear my fellow Catholics talking about discrimination whenever we meet at Church social gatherings. When I attended pagan social gatherings, on the other hand, there was plenty of talk about how pagans were discriminated against.
That’s interesting. And how involved are you in the pagan community? Because I attend private home worship as well as open pagan gatherings and am on a few pagan-specific boards and cries of discrimination are not the norm, nor is anything related to Christianity a usual topic of discussion. But according to you, it’s a wonder they ever get around to discussing their own religions, “everyone” being so preoccupied with discrimination! Funny, seems the polytheists and Neopagans I encounter are rather balanced ordinary individuals leading their lives pretty much like anyone else. I will be sure to let them know that “every” Pagan is supposedly out bleating about injustice and they’ve been slacking off. 🤷

However, turn on television and land on a station like Fox or hear conservative politicians and religious leaders railing at length about “godless pagans” (oxymoron) and [their] leftist agendas? How many major media outlets are exalting and championing Pagan religions, and on a comparably blatant and regular basis? Which political party panders to its Pagan base?

So to summarize: it’s only a culture of discrimination if Christians feel they’re being marginalized, anyone else is just crying wolf (“all” of them)? Sorted. :hmmm:
Because Christainity is the largest faith in this nation, and is deeply engrained in our culture. Pagans make up a very tiny minority, they represent very few people, that is why it would not be appropriate to have them lead prayer at public meetings.
Wrong. As such folks who are inclined to claim discrimination like to point a finger to, this is a pluralistic society and, as much as they might object, secular law. Your argument is why this country is a democratic republic.
Incorrect. maintained schools in the UK where there is a majority of pupils of another particular faith (Mulism, Sikh etc.) can opt to have their daily act of worship relating to that particular Faith.
Not incorrect. I’m talking about the US in which oh yes there is a recurring tug-of-war over whether there should be Christian-preference in public schools, and how teaching evolution needs to be either nixed entirely or shifted from science classes and/or creationism taught along side it in science class. Please do list which other religions’ views on Man’s development are also demanding equal time.
Most Christians do not go about claiming discrimination, most pagans (or at least a very sizeable minority) do.
That is patently false and indicates a personal bias. MOST pagans do NOT go around claiming discrimination. You see what you want to see, and what you see are those you disagree with, but seemingly totally oblivious to when the same behavior is exhibited by those who believe the same thing you do.
That’s a nice cop-out. Pagans committed the acts, but it was not their fault.They didn’t exactly raise their voices to condemn it, did they? That didn’t stop pagans turning up day after day to watch Christians being ripped apart by wild beasts, for entertainment.
It’s not a cop out, it’s a fact. Roman law was not created by or enforced by the temple priests.

And by your line of reasoning, are you then admitting “every” Christian has the blood of the thousands of tortured and executed innocent persons by the Church? Was not the Council of Basil a Church council? Wasn’t the Malleus Maleficarum, the how-to book for prosecuting “witches”, written by clergy and used in the courts? (Answer to both: yes)

But I do genuinely thank you for demonstrating the double-standard exhibited repeatedly in this thread. It’s an example of the behavior of those who only see what they want to see and ignore the same behavior being complained about when it’s done by their own. “Every Pagan” cries discrimination yet totally unaware of when Christians do as much, if not more. And it’s “Pagans” who are guilty of persecution, but Christians never.

As I said, pot meet kettle. 👍
 
Though more to the point is whether the individuals being accused actually engaged in actions they’re accused of and what is it that’s being labeled “witchcraft”. Whether witchcraft is a real thing or not is separate from being accused. Just because someone makes allegations doesn’t make it so - thus why we have a legal system, for example. In most instances such as in Africa, foremost individuals are targeted and ostracized because of the accusers’ own motivations. There are African villages of nothing but abandoned elderly, widowed women and children who have been ostracized from their home villages as “witches”. Accused by family and neighbors because what it boils down to is they were inconvenient for the accusers. Much like the European witch trials, they’re accused because they angered someone or had property another coveted or were widowed or elderly or orphaned and would be an unwanted burden. Label them witch, whip up some hysteria and they are either killed or ostracized.
Entirely true, the accusation of witchcraft can be a powerful tool to turn a community against someone. After all that was what the Salem trials were realy about, the only person there is evidence was any sort of “Witch” was Tituba, the Caribean woman who taught the girls about seances.
 
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