Ask a Pagan

[LivingWaters7]

I must say, it’s amusing to hear a Pagan repeatedly refer to Mormonism as obviously man-made…

 

[joe371]

I certainly dont worship myself. I am a man, and I have all the great potential and limitations of mankind. I dont think i’m some sort of god or anything worth worshiping.

Oh god, these folks, actually I heard some of them just got arrested in Oklahoma. Like I said obviously man-made religions like Laverian Satanism and Mormonism probably dont fit into that, and Id include that hate-fest from Kansas that calls itself a church. Still though, even the WBC teaches a few things just about everyone agrees on, such as that stealing without good reason is wrong.

If Jesus is not who he says he is, as you claim, then you must believe that all of Christendom, regardless of church affiliation, is man made i.e. not from God. Correct?

 

[Skadi]

If you seek a religion that conforms to all your own beliefs, then that is, indeed, what you are doing, Skadi. :sad_yes:

Truth cannot be everything that happens to conform to your own tastes.

(Logic dictates that truism, not any religion.)

If i had it my way there would be no sacrifice to the gods, even on the blots,but there is and I observe it. I did not fashion my own religion, I encountered on I agree with.

 

[Skadi]

I must say, it’s amusing to hear a Pagan repeatedly refer to Mormonism as obviously man-made…

My religion extends back as far as the historical record of Germanic peoples, and at the time was already spread over a vast area. Where as Mormonism was founded by a man who claimed he had a extra book of the bible inside a hat that only he could see, and when he was asked to reread the book it had mysteriously been replaced with one that had the same general story line but not the same details.

Which of those sounds like someone making something up?

 

[PRmerger]

If i had it my way there would be no sacrifice to the gods, even on the blots,but there is and I observe it. I did not fashion my own religion, I encountered on I agree with.

Fair enough. You have conformed to a practice that the gods have decreed.

What about a morality? Have you conformed your morality to that which the gods have revealed?

Or do the Germanic gods happen to agree with everything you personally agree to morally?

 

[Skadi]

If Jesus is not who he says he is, as you claim, then you must believe that all of Christendom, regardless of church affiliation, is man made i.e. not from God. Correct?

Its an offshoot of Judaism which itself is based on Canaanite religion (YHWH is first mentioned in Canaanite temples.)

I believe Christianity contains a lot of truths; Love thy neighbor, honor your father and mother, ect. but I do believe that its view of deity has been pretty heavily shaped by humans fr thier own means.

 

[LivingWaters7]

My religion extends back as far as the historical record of Germanic peoples, and at the time was already spread over a vast area. Where as Mormonism was founded by a man who claimed he had a extra book of the bible inside a hat that only he could see, and when he was asked to reread the book it had mysteriously been replaced with one that had the same general story line but not the same details.

Which of those sounds like someone making something up?

Ignoring your glaring confusion on some aspects of Mormon history (as well as your understanding of what the Book of Mormon purports to be, as LDS and its founder understand/understood it), I don’t see how the antiquity of a religion makes it any more or less man made than a more recent one.

Anyway, I don’t want to derail your thread further. I was just pointing out how amused I am by your repeated mentioning of Mormonism. If I remember correctly, you previously practiced Wicca. I think it’s clear that much of Neo-Paganism is really just people making stuff up, i.e., man-made.

 

[joe371]

Its an offshoot of Judaism which itself is based on Canaanite religion (YHWH is first mentioned in Canaanite temples.)

I believe Christianity contains a lot of truths; Love thy neighbor, honor your father and mother, ect. but I do believe that its view of deity has been pretty heavily shaped by humans fr thier own means.

Truths directly from God, the creator of everything, transmitted through Gods church?

Certainly God could manage to protect all truth i.e. prevent them all from being “pretty heavily shaped by humans from their own means”, and therefore corrupt.

How do you make a distinction between the truths that have been preserved vs the truths that have been warped by man?

 

[josh987654321]

1. Good is something in keeping with the 9 noble virtues,

What are the 9 noble virtues?

1. I don’t think any modern pagan has much of a desire to commit human sacrifice, however. I certainly don’t.

Thats a relief, because human sacrafice is very much a part of pagansim.

1. As a former Wiccan i’ve done some magic but I dont anymore. While Celtic paganism, Druidism, and Wicca have magic as a central part of their religion, Germanic and Slavic paganism dont. There is magic, but for the most part the average pagan dosn’t ever do much more than some folk magic in the form of maybe a blessing. Historically, magic was generally preformed by local Seers, sometimes called “the Angel of Death”, would preform magic, interpret the will of the gods, and foretell childrens destiny.

What are these spells supposed to do?

While I do not admire the cause for which modern suicide bombers die, or that they target civilians, but courage in the face f certain death is a virtue of many religions.

And no, not just any fool can fight to the death, this is what makes it special. The truly great warriors hold their ground, even while others may break and run around them. How many times in history have whole units fought to the death? its not common and usually only happens when it is an elite unit or they are trapped in some way.

This really is one of the biggest gaps between my religion and yours. You believe violence is unnatural and of satan as it was not created by god. I believe violence is natural part of life, and that there is nothing unnatural about it. Violence is everywhere in nature. Its simply part of life.

Yes, but my religion doesn’t advocate violence and hatred. my religion advocates love and mercy.

1. Christs followers (desciples) died in peace, forgiving their transgressors. (thats courage)
2. Pagan followers died in hatred and violence towards their transgressors.

When faced with certain death, what takes more courage and is more righteous, A) Dieing in peace while forgiving your transgressors or B) Dieing in hatred while taking as many of your transgressors down as you can before they end your life?

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[PRmerger]

Its an offshoot of Judaism which itself is based on Canaanite religion (YHWH is first mentioned in Canaanite temples.)

I believe Christianity contains a lot of truths; Love thy neighbor, honor your father and mother, ect. but I do believe that its view of deity has been pretty heavily shaped by humans fr thier own means.

I am curious about your juxtaposition of non-man-made religions (i.e. Judaism) with “I believe Christianity contains a lot of truths”.

Is your position: if a religion contains a lot of truths it is therefore not man-made?

If not, why did you segue with that proposition?

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t see how the antiquity of a religion makes it any more or less man made than a more recent one.

True, dat.

What say you, Skadi, to this? How do you discern whether a religion is man-made or not? And what does antiquity have to do with it?

 

[Porknpie]

Its an offshoot of Judaism which itself is based on Canaanite religion (YHWH is first mentioned in Canaanite temples.)

I believe Christianity contains a lot of truths; Love thy neighbor, honor your father and mother, ect. but I do believe that its view of deity has been pretty heavily shaped by humans fr thier own means.

Skadi-

Do you believe Jesus was a historical person (and not in your opinion, the Son of God)?

I’m looking to see if we have common ground on this question.

Pork

 

[FabiusMaximus]

1. I was a pretty big deist/agnostic in high school, but becoming Wiccan moved me to more of a soft-polythiestic worldview (although im still very deist). There are alot of things most religions have in common, and I feel my worldview does a pretty good job of explaining that. They are all faces of the “Is All”.
2. As a soft polytheist, I believe all religions (besides maybe blatantly man-made ones like Mormonism and the so called “Church of Satan”) are faces of the ultimate reality. So, regardless of what religion I would follow it would lead me (hopefully) to better myself and lead a good and honorable life. But seeing as my ancestry is German, and my ideals and morality already lined up pretty well with Germanic paganism, i decided to simply honor the gods of my ancestors.

I suppose my question is more why. Why move from agnosticism/deism to “soft polytheism” or “pantheism”? If all religions lead to the truth, then what is the ultimate destination? Because if all religions are somehow leading to the truth, then what exactly is that truth? The Germanic gods?

More specifically, with regards to the German gods is, what made you believe they exist? The Wiccan worldview? Germany is certainly a rich country with a rich heritage, but Catholicism and Lutheranism are as equally German as ancient paganism.

1. We do the best with what we have. The best sources are old rune-stones and Roman accounts. Accounts taken or translated by Christians are generally taken with a grain of salt. We do the best we can to recreate, and the rest we try to keep in line with what he know for certain.

But honestly there is no religion in the western world that is practiced exactly as it has been for the last 1000 years. Catholic masses are now held in the vernacular, the Jews again rule their homeland, and Christianity and Islam have both undergone major scisms in the last millennium, so why should it be assumed that if Germanic pagainism had survived uninterrupted we would still be sacrificing our P.O.W.'s to Tyr/Tywaz like what happened on the Roman frontier 2000 years ago? Science and the post-modern age have done much to every-day religious practices.

To an extent it’s true you
hope this is helpful

Well we know almost nothing about how the ancient pagans worshiped their gods. You’re right that some changes arise over time. But substantially, with regards to Judaism or Catholicism, those faiths have remained relatively unchanged, even when it comes to liturgy. But how do you worship the pagan gods if there is little to start from?

 

[Skadi]

Truths directly from God, the creator of everything, transmitted through Gods church?

Certainly God could manage to protect all truth i.e. prevent them all from being “pretty heavily shaped by humans from their own means”, and therefore corrupt.

How do you make a distinction between the truths that have been preserved vs the truths that have been warped by man?

Truths that are present in culture and religion across the world, much as “Love thy neighbor” type rules. However, If there is something exclusive to one religion, say Christianity eucharist, im not apt to believe it.

 

[joe371]

Its an offshoot of Judaism which itself is based on Canaanite religion (YHWH is first mentioned in Canaanite temples.)

OK. If Jesus is not who he says he is, as you claim, then you must believe that all of Christendom, regardless of church affiliation, is man made i.e. not from God. Correct?

 

[Skadi]

Fair enough. You have conformed to a practice that the gods have decreed.

What about a morality? Have you conformed your morality to that which the gods have revealed?

Or do the Germanic gods happen to agree with everything you personally agree to morally?

Actually the German gods morality is even looser than my own on most things. Things like sex out of wedlock, which aren’t permissible in most main stream religions, arn’t even talked about.

 

[joe371]

Truths that are present in culture and religion across the world, much as “Love thy neighbor” type rules. However, If there is something exclusive to one religion, say Christianity eucharist, im not apt to believe it.

So no to the following: Truths directly from God, the creator of everything, transmitted via Gods church?

No, God did not protect all truth i.e. prevent them all from being “pretty heavily shaped by humans from their own means”, and therefore corrupt.

How do you make a distinction between the truths that have been preserved vs the truths that have been warped by man?

How can you know that “love thy neighbour” is from God vs a man-made tradition?

Finally, do you believe that truth is relative?

 

[mlamg]

I didn’t have a choice when I was baptized, but now I do. Each and every choice I make is ordered towards my religious faith.

So your point above is essentially baseless.

Because I have not found them to be true. If I did, I would follow the trail of truth to wherever it leads.

You will find, mlamg, that I have proclaimed here a multitude of times that I have conformed my views to God’s, despite how unpalatable I may find it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10762706&postcount=414

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8719398&postcount=136

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9790014&postcount=354

No, my point is not baseless at all. You stay in your religion because you find it to be true for you. If you didn’t, you would not be what you are. Just because you find some things unpalatable doesn’t mean you find them false, just unpalatable.

In the same light, non-Christians find their religion to be true. I’m sure there are things in all religions that are not palatable, yet people stay because they have a gut feeling that it’s true. If they didn’t think it was true, they wouldn’t be in that particular religion.

“If I did, I would follow the trail of truth to wherever it leads.” And that’s exactly what others have done. They just didn’t find that the trail included Jesus.

 

[Skadi]

What are the 9 noble virtues?

Courage
Truth
Honour
Fidelity
Discipline
Hospitality
Self Reliance
Industriousness
Perseverance

What are these spells supposed to do?

Probably nothing more than something to protect the town from evil spirits or something at a funeral. Germanic languages like Proto-Germanic, old Norse, and old English have a very rich magical vocabulary, but it probably would have just been mostly “protect me from evil” sort of stuff. Cursing or sending spirits against your enemies would be considered an act of cowardice.

Yes, but my religion doesn’t advocate violence and hatred. my religion advocates love and mercy.

1. Christs followers (desciples) died in peace, forgiving their transgressors. (thats courage)
2. Pagan followers died in hatred and violence towards their transgressors.

When faced with certain death, what takes more courage and is more righteous, A) Dieing in peace while forgiving your transgressors or B) Dieing in hatred while taking as many of your transgressors down as you can before they end your life?

Thank you for reading
Josh

And here is where we diverge. You believe that A is the finer death, because it is what your god asks of you. I believe that B is the finer death because it is pleasing to my gods.

While I respect the dedication those martys showed, they gave up, forfeiting their lives (as the bible tells them to). To face certain death, and take as many of your enemies with you as you can is pleasing to the gods, showing you are a brave warrior who fights to the death.

While gettign in to christian heaven is based on gods mercy and your deeds and love on earth, Valhalla is home to only the brave and fierce warriors. Many good, loving people do not go to Valhalla, you dont get in on your kindness or good deeds (although that is part of honor). Odin wants only the strongest, bravest warriors, because when Ragnarok comes they will march from Valhalla and join him on the field of battle. To go to Valhalla is to train to fight the final battle of good vs. evil. As such, one must be a warrior who will fight to the death, not one who will quietly accept death.

 

[mlamg]

So no to the following: Truths directly from God, the creator of everything, transmitted via Gods church?

No, God did not protect all truth i.e. prevent them all from being “pretty heavily shaped by humans from their own means”, and therefore corrupt.

How do you make a distinction between the truths that have been preserved vs the truths that have been warped by man?

How can you know that “love thy neighbour” is from God vs a man-made tradition?

Finally, do you believe that truth is relative?

Harmony is from God, disharmony is from man. Pagans and other non-Christians don’t need books with thousands of rules for them to know what is right and what is wrong. It’s not rocket science.

Truth is in accordance with fact, so how can it be relative? Facts are facts.

Please note, myself and the OP are two different kinds of pagans. You can’t put us all in one basket.