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Kallisto
Guest
Belated welcome.
It sounds like what you previously explored is Eclecticism that incorporated general Wiccan concepts. E.g., âAn it harm none, do what ye willâ is known as the Wiccan Rede and is not universal to all Pagans. Same for the Summerlands. Many solitary witches and pagans are eclectic and often incorporate Wiccan concepts.
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Alizarin
Guest
Since this is âask a paganâ, any pagans here ever read Triumph of the Moon? Personally, I thought it quite interesting, albeit Huttonâs writing style is a little on the dry side.
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Skadi
Guest
I just bought it actualy after another person on here referenced it, but its legacy precedes itself. Probably the most controversial book on Paganism ever written. No better way to get Wiccans to argue and to scream at eachother than to bring it up.
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andrewstx
Guest
What is the difference between a pagan, new ager, wiccan, and a spiritualist? They all have some things in common, but what?
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Skadi
Guest
Pagan by defenition refers to people who follow non Abrahamic religions. However Neo-Paganism is what this thread is realy about. Neo-Paganism is a term which has very loose boundries and can be considered offensive but generally consists of two groups. Wiccans and other witches, and Reconstructionists who recreatate European and Near East paganism. Reconstructionists include Druids, Celtic pagans, Asatru/Norse/Germanic/Anglo Saxon pagans (heathens), Hellenismos (Greek pagans), Roman pagans, Khemetics (Egyptian pagans), Slavic pagans and others.
New Age is a large group of vastly different and unorthodox beliefs involving psycology, metaphysics, holistic medicine, and sometimes the occult. Burning Man is full of New Age folks, although they are not all hippies.
Wicca is a Neo-Pagan religion that involves witchcraft and dualistic worship of he God and Goddess. It was founded by Gerald Gardner in the 20th century, but is believed by some to be a continuation of a much older witch cult. Gardner drew from Occultism, cerimonial magic, Celtic Paganism, and Anglo Saxon paganism to create a nature base religion. Wiccans are a broad group ranging from staunch traditionalists who follow initiatory lineages back to Gardner to Eclectic solitary witches, many self initiated. The major structured traditions include Gardnerian, Alexandrian and Seax Wicca. Dianic Wiccans worship only he divine feminine. As a rule of thumb Wiccans usualy canât agree on any aspect of hier religion, including who is Wiccan.
Spiritualism generally refers to working with spirits or similar concepts. Astral projection, Spirit guides, Shamanism, contacting the dead, and other similar practice are all forms of spiritualism.
I hope this helps. These terms cover a vast verity of beliefs and often the people they are used to define either resent the term or canât agree who is one. If you want more specify information on a specific subject feal free to ask, because hear things are rather difficult to define lol
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Ion
Guest
Why did the people give up paganism? The invading migrations that started the dark ages in western europe, ended up being baptised. Donât you think that it is immoral and antisocial to get what you want by appealing a so called god? if you please the god he might give you what you want no questions askedâŚbut this can go in both directions in ways that you donât even imagine.
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Mastiff_Eng
Guest
Skadi
I checked the messages however never got your pm.
I checked the messages however never got your pm.
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Alizarin
Guest
Nevermind then
So, out of curiosity, what drew you to the specific realm of Germanic paganism?
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Skadi
Guest
Paganism in Europe and the Near East died out because of extended government sponsored repression. That and the fact that the structure of these religions ment that while Christian missionaryâs were running all over Europe there was very little effort made to bring people back the old ways, and in fact this was often illegal.
Let me elaborate.
The first 300 years of Christianity saw it undergo varying degrees of persecution, used as a scape goat by Roman politicians. In 313 the emperors met and agreed to give christians religious tollerence, the edict of Milan. However from there on things went down hill fast. Constantineâs son and the following emperors began closing pagan temples, confescating thier property, and eventually outlawed it all together. St. Ambrose was a major force encouraging these policies. Contary to popular belief the Christianization of Europe went from the top down, not the bottom up.
When the Roman Empire was invaded by the Huns and Germans, not only were these tribes were swarmed by both missionaryâs and Christian women taken as slaves who made christians of the children while the men were away fighting. Furthermore, the kings of these tribes found being baptized opened up a world of political possibilities for alliances with other christians, as well as gave them a larger degree of control over the population because of the churches organized structure as opposed to unstructured tribal religion. Again although the official conversions happened in the mid first millennia the common people carried on in the back woods for many centuries more.
The last area of Europe to be Christianization, Scandinavia, again was converted via political means. Once Denmarkâs king became Christian all a Norse earl or dethroned king had to do was be baptized and he had the armyâs of Denmark ready to help him conquer, in the name of Christ of course. The only place in Europe the conversion seams to have been bloodless was Iceland, where an agreement made the island nominally Christian but allowed the Pagans to continue in private. This changed after the reformation but paganism here lived on untill the mid 19th century.
The Christianization of Europe was a long, and often bloody process, you canât boil it down to âthey left thier gods they are fakeâ. Christians were persecuted for 200 years, pagans were for about 1500.
As for the âImoralityâ of praying to the gods, how is praying to Odin for help any different than praying to Jesus?
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Kallisto
Guest
Itâs specifically about Wicca than Paganism as a whole. Generally it was well received among (traditional) Wiccans, even though there are various points of being in agreement as well as disagreement. But nothing more unusual or controversial or unexpected than one would find in any other field of study. Catholics, for example, donât agree with every scholar or book on their religion. It caused more upheaval among eclectics since it would have burst a lot of bubbles in regards to just how old the religion as itâs known has existed and so forth.
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Skadi
Guest
Well I was raised Catholic, at least nominally, and went to catholic school my whole life. I was very Agnostic and Diestic my whole high school career but my senior year I took a world religions class with my theo teacher. Iâm a History major now and love to travell and experience different cultures, so I got rather into it. I would up doing my final report on traditional Germanic religion and the girl after me did Wicca, and before I knew it i was at Borders and on the Internet devoting every scarp of knowledge I could find. The nature aspect drew me To wicca for a time and I used Tyr and Skadi as my primary dietys but eventually I just moved into Germanic paganism as to worship them directly, as my distant ancestors, rather than through the frame work of Wicca. Iâve still got some Wiccan left in me though, haha.Nevermind then
So, out of curiosity, what drew you to the specific realm of Germanic paganism?
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Kallisto
Guest
I think this might be confusing for the non-pagan given the range of diversity. Neopagans fall into two primary segments - basically general paganism and witchcraft. Wicca is a subset of the Witchcraft category as there are many forms of Craft, most of which are unrelated, often secular. The general Paganism category encompasses a wide range of practices, essentially non-witchcraft practices.
Straddling either category is Eclecticism, individuals who donât adhere to a specific tradition or cultural practice but engage in highly individualized practices that draw on any number and configuration of influences from the realm of Paganism and/or Witchcraft and/or New Age. Many, but not all, within Eclecticism borrow basic elements associated with Wicca, which is why Eclecticism is often mistaken for being Wicca.
Reconstructionism generally would fall under the Pagan category. However, Reconstructionism is, for lack of a better word, âorthodoxâ compared to what is often practiced in Neopaganism as Reconstructionists endeavor to reconstruct/revive authentic, traditional folk practices while Neopagans are heavily influenced by a cultural folk practice but are less concerned about authentic practice. Also Reconstructionists tend not to self-identify as âPaganâ or âNeopaganâ, since ancient peoples didnât refer to themselves or their religions as âpaganâ. They acknowledge theyâre âneopagansâ in that they are modern (âneoâ) polytheists.
Just to add to this: Gardner indicated he was initiated into a pre-existing practice. He found the practice to be fragmented and in danger of dying out as his initiators were elderly. What he created was a framework to preserve the knowledge they conveyed to him by borrowing methods that could be used to convey those teachings. Often this is misunderstood to mean Wicca is essentially a derivative of the paths he took techniques from, but itâs not. E.g., the circle casting of a Wiccan is different from the type done in ceremonial magic even though many of the steps are similar. Different purpose and meaning. As a religion, it bears a greater resemblance to the ancient Mystery religions of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians than much of whatâs done among Eclectics and Solitary pagans/witches.
The word âWiccaâ is used in a broad context, the religion itself isnât actually that broad. There are what amounts to two completely different religions using the name. Wicca, as in whatâs attributable to Gardner, is an initiatory priesthood, of which there are only a few traditions. Because of the confusion, today these are referred to as British Traditional Wicca (BTW) or Trad Wicca. Other witchcraft traditions, some originating in the late 1960s-early '70s used the term âWiccaâ but were not actually part of the religion attributed to Gardner - i.e., they are not initiates nor transmit the same thing as BTW. Dianic Witchcraft (of which there are 2 unrelated forms) is not Trad Wicca, especially not the Dianic Craft that came out of the Feminist movement via Z Budapest. One of the founders of the older form of Dianic Witchcraft known as McFarland or Old Dianic had contact with Trad Wiccans, but McFarland also is not Wicca.
Seax Wicca also is not Wicca, it was founded by Raymond Buckland after he left Gardnerian Craft. It does not transmit the same thing as Gardnerâs Craft.
Itâs all very confusing at first, mainly because once Gardnerâs Wicca became known and was brought to the States, many from that era decided to jump on the âWicca bandwagonâ, erroneously using the term as a synonym for âWitchcraftâ. But in a nutshell, actual Wicca (as in what traces back Gardner) is a lineaged priesthood of a Mystery religion, perpetuating a specific orthopraxic religion and body of lore. That precludes the majority of individuals who are, more precisely, practicing a form of eclectic Witchcraft that has borrowed Wiccan influence.
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Ion
Guest
Jesus is Holy. Pagan gods are not. Look at the story of Medusa; she was a moral woman but that was nothing for the god that lusted after her body, or for the goddess she was sworn to. Probably people had many more stories of this kind related to other gods as well but they were lost. You canât âpayâ Jesus. You canât please him otherwise than through good works. Jesus will not answer any prayer that is made on behalf of lust or any immorality; gods have no problems with the morals; in Christian society you have to play by the rules, in pagan society you can âpayâ a god to get what you want, and this is completely out of any rules. These things were very visible for the pagans, they saw that christian society works differently, and they gave up paganism. Christianity âconqueredâ bottom up, through the people, it is historical fact. There were kings that saw the difference and decided christianity is better for their people as well. People didnât like (and me as wel) the attitude of any pagan in their entourage, who takes advantage of the things they share, who collects information and then tries and take advantage through a god; this was the reason for the demise of the paganism.
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Skadi
Guest
- We donât agree with you on Jesusâs divinity, thatâs why we arnt Christian.
- You donât âpayâ the gods. You have a very wrong concept of what sacrifice is. And the bible is full of references to sacrifice by ancient Jews. In fact your own god judged Cain and Able on the basis of the sacrifices they made, looking with favor on Abel who made a better one.
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Skadi
Guest
Yep like I said there is that never ending debate going on about what is and is not Wicca. I was never myself initiated so I defer to Kallistos knowledge on the subject, although I donât necisarily agree about Seax Wicca.
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Kallisto
Guest
Aside from being entirely incorrect, that comment is uninformed and flat out antagonizing and inflammatory.
Similarly, someone else could attempt to point to any number of biblical stories and claim they âproveâ the religion, its adherents and its god are immoral, malevolent, etc. - as many anti-Christians have done. No doubt youâve seen it done by those as intent on bashing Christianity as you seem to be intent on bashing polytheism.
Iâd kindly suggest you learn what mythologies are about, as well as the histories of the those found within pantheons before deigning to tell others that their gods are not holy. Then, you might know, that in the case of Hellenic myth, myths are not literal and, quite pertinent to the moment: that Medusa is not a Hellenic goddess. You might even discover that she was originally not even Greek but from Libya and perceived differently there and prior to trans-cultural distortion and absorption.
One does not pay the gods either. You seem to have very minimal understanding of the things you seek to invalidate.
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Kallisto
Guest
What are your thoughts in regard to Seax Wica? (I failed to comment itâs actually with one âcâ, not two).
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Topaz1128
Guest
Looks like this thread got off topic. 
I would âask a pagan,â but since I converted from paganism, Iâm good.
I would âask a pagan,â but since I converted from paganism, Iâm good.
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Skadi
Guest
Well Buckland was an initiated Wiccan and although he did break from tradition in some serious ways Wiccan concepts are still at the core. The main problem I would see with trad Wiccans accepting it is that it allows self initiation. As such each individual practitioner does not necisarily have an initiatory lineage to Gardner or even necisarily one at all.
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