Ask a pagan

[spockrates]

Hey there everyone I want to start off by saying I’m not here to start arguments or offend anyone. I’m here because I have a lot of questions about Christianity. I’m young and enjoy learning about different religions, points of view on different issues but I figure before I start going around asking my questions I want to give people the opportunity to ask me questions. Anything about paganism you have ever wondered about or something that makes you uncomfortable? Feel free to ask! .

Hey, RiverStone. I admire your attitude–smooth, like a stone shaped by a river, not abrasive like some rock spit from a volcano. My question: What is a pagan?

 

[Skadi]

In regard to animism, what if the evolutionary theory of religion is wrong, and primitive monotheism – related specifically to a singular benign being – is correct? If that’s the case then we go back far enough and find our ancestors were, if not Christian, at least something close to it long before there was any idea of multiple gods or spirit-filled nature.

Lol I live these “what if your wrong” questions. That’s a two way street. Even if I’m wrong I hope to have lived an honorable life and made my ancestors proud.

So I pose to you, what if the evolutionary theory of religion is right?

 

[Skadi]

OK, I just said I was going to go back to lurking, but I do want to address this comment you made earlier in the thread.

I have known quite a few pagans and I can tell you this is not exactly correct. “Pagan” is an umbrella term covering a wide range of beliefs and groups, and some of them most definitely to NOT “coexist just fine with each other or other religions”.

For example, Satanists really look down Wiccans (one comment I just found from this Satanist’s site* describes them as “lovey-dovey-faeries-and-lollipops Wiccans”). (*warning, some profanity here!).

There are umpteen Wiccan and Pagan websites accusing Christians of all sorts of persecutions, past and present, real and imagined.

And yes, vice versa.

What I’m trying to say is that Paganism is not really all that different from Christianity as far as tolerance of other beliefs. They may say they’re different but come on - Pagans and Christians have one thing in common: they’re comprised of HUMANS!

Can you tell me how many wars were fought for religiouse reasons in Europe before Christianity rose? Not a lot, and usualy rebellions that were aided by some sort of religious hysteria. The Germans didn’t kill the Gauls for not worshipingTywaz or vice versa.

In adition the majority of Wiccans feal as though they have (or atleast witches have) been persecuted by christians. Some feal like they still passively are.

Lastly Satanists are not Pagans as they believe in the Christian God.

But your right, religions are made up of people, and we are by nature imperfect. So it’s not fare to expect perfection from anyone, let alone a group.

 

[theistgal]

Can you tell me how many wars were fought for religiouse reasons in Europe before Christianity rose? Not a lot, and usualy rebellions that were aided by some sort of religious hysteria. The Germans didn’t kill the Gauls for not worshipingTywaz or vice versa.

In adition the majority of Wiccans feal as though they have (or atleast witches have) been persecuted by christians. Some feal like they still passively are.

Lastly Satanists are not Pagans as they believe in the Christian God.

But your right, religions are made up of people, and we are by nature imperfect. So it’s not fare to expect perfection from anyone, let alone a group.

Actually, Satanists claim they don’t believe in ANY God - or in Satan. I’m not defending Satanists, by the way, but I did read Anton LaVey’s “Satanic Bible” back in my bad old youth , and remember that quite well.

Second, no, there probably weren’t any Pagan-on-Pagan wars in Europe after Christianity arose. First of all, because Christianity was dominant, both in religion and in government. Second, because the modern-day Pagans are not the same as the Pagans who existed before that time. And since pretty much every non-Judeo/Christian religion could be considered “pagan”, and since there were definitely wars among humans long before Abraham came along, of course there were pagans fighting pagans, for religious and other reasons.

And the Egyptians and other nations certainly made war on the Jews in pre-Christian days, even enslaving them. Now you may want to argue that the Jews gave as good as they got and more, later on, and that may well be true. But it’s not correct to say that pre-Christian “pagans” were the sweet, loving New Age types they are today.

Certainly the New Pagans do (consciously) model themselves after some aspects of pre-Christian religions (Gerald Gardner et al) but to their credit, they leave out all the nasty non-pc stuff (like animal/human sacrifices). I for one am very happy that ALL modern-day religions have eliminated those things, aren’t you?

(P.S. Sorry, but I have actually studied Paganism and Wicca in-depth and probably know more about it than a good Catholic girl should. )

 

[Skadi]

Actually, Satanists claim they don’t believe in ANY God - or in Satan. I’m not defending Satanists, by the way, but I did read Anton LaVey’s “Satanic Bible” back in my bad old youth , and remember that quite well.

Second, no, there probably weren’t any Pagan-on-Pagan wars in Europe after Christianity arose. First of all, because Christianity was dominant, both in religion and in government. Second, because the modern-day Pagans are not the same as the Pagans who existed before that time. And since pretty much every non-Judeo/Christian religion could be considered “pagan”, and since there were definitely wars among humans long before Abraham came along, of course there were pagans fighting pagans, for religious and other reasons.

And the Egyptians and other nations certainly made war on the Jews in pre-Christian days, even enslaving them. Now you may want to argue that the Jews gave as good as they got and more, later on, and that may well be true. But it’s not correct to say that pre-Christian “pagans” were the sweet, loving New Age types they are today.

Certainly the New Pagans do (consciously) model themselves after some aspects of pre-Christian religions (Gerald Gardner et al) but to their credit, they leave out all the nasty non-pc stuff (like animal/human sacrifices). I for one am very happy that ALL modern-day religions have eliminated those things, aren’t you?

(P.S. Sorry, but I have actually studied Paganism and Wicca in-depth and probably know more about it than a good Catholic girl should. )

Just two points.

1. While Levarian Satanists do not believe in god the majority of satanists are not memebrs of this group. They are “thiestic satanists” who believe in both God and Satan and believe Satan seeks to liberate them from Gods cruel rule. So while some satanists are athiests many are not.
2. Yes pagans did fight wars. Tons of them. But what I’m sayin is that hey were not for religious reasons. They didn’t attack saboteur because of religious differences as christians and Muslems often have in he past, both internally and externally. Although Pagans asked the gods for omens and made sacrifices before battle, they were rarely if ever fighting for religious reasons. They usualy fought for land, wealth, ect. Rather than to kill/convert people of other religions or because they saw it as a holy mission.

So, while religion was part of war, it was not the source, as has sadly been the case the past few millennia.

 

[theistgal]

Just two points.

1. While Levarian Satanists do not believe in god the majority of satanists are not memebrs of this group. They are “thiestic satanists” who believe in both God and Satan and believe Satan seeks to liberate them from Gods cruel rule. So while some satanists are athiests many are not.
2. Yes pagans did fight wars. Tons of them. But what I’m sayin is that hey were not for religious reasons. They didn’t attack saboteur because of religious differences as christians and Muslems often have in he past, both internally and externally. Although Pagans asked the gods for omens and made sacrifices before battle, they were rarely if ever fighting for religious reasons. They usualy fought for land, wealth, ect. Rather than to kill/convert people of other religions or because they saw it as a holy mission.

So, while religion was part of war, it was not the source, as has sadly been the case the past few millennia.

Just out of curiosity, what is your level of education? I’m just wondering where you learned all these things. If it was on the Internet, you may want to exercise some critical thinking and do some research for yourself.

Also, please forgive me, but as a former teacher I must correct your spellings of “theistic” and “atheist”. (I’ll let the “Muslems” and “Levarians” correct you themselves. )

 

[Skadi]

Just out of curiosity, what is your level of education? I’m just wondering where you learned all these things. If it was on the Internet, you may want to exercise some critical thinking and do some research for yourself.

Also, please forgive me, but as a former teacher I must correct your spellings of “theistic” and “atheist”. (I’ll let the “Muslems” and “Levarians” correct you themselves. )

I’m currently studying for my history major and I’ve taken multiple world religion courses. Plus I’m pretty broadly read, I’ve been reading historical and cultural books sense I was a kid. I realy enjoy learning about other cultures and religions.

As for my spelling, I have never nor will ever be a good one, and I’m using an iPod anyway

 

[theistgal]

I’m currently studying for my history major and I’ve taken multiple world religion courses. Plus I’m pretty broadly read, I’ve been reading historical and cultural books sense I was a kid. I realy enjoy learning about other cultures and religions.

As for my spelling, I have never nor will ever be a good one, and I’m using an iPod anyway

Ok. No offense intended. But just FYI, you might be surprised (perhaps pleasantly so) at how many people here already know quite a bit about paganism, Wicca, etc. - not only from abstract studies but from personal experience.

I used to moderate at an atheist bulletin board and saw too many Christians making a similar (erroneous) assumption, that just because someone currently identifies with one religion/philosophy (in that case, atheism), it meant they had no knowledge or understanding of any other religion/philosophy (in that case, Christianity). When actually most of the atheists there could not only quote Scripture better than Billy Graham, but knew canon law better than some Catholics!

 

[Skadi]

Ok. No offense intended. But just FYI, you might be surprised (perhaps pleasantly so) at how many people here already know quite a bit about paganism, Wicca, etc. - not only from abstract studies but from personal experience.

I used to moderate at an atheist bulletin board and saw too many Christians making a similar (erroneous) assumption, that just because someone currently identifies with one religion/philosophy (in that case, atheism), it meant they had no knowledge or understanding of any other religion/philosophy (in that case, Christianity). When actually most of the atheists there could not only quote Scripture better than Billy Graham, but knew canon law better than some Catholics!

Oh certainly, I agree. Just because a person follows one religion does not make them ignorant of others. I still remember plenty from Catholic school. Sometimes I pull out my old Catholic apologetics knowledge to mess with the street preachers on campus. You would be amazed how many young bible thumpers can spew scripture but have never even heard of Sola Scriptura, let alone an arguement against it.

Gota say though, nothing throws them for a loop like exodus 15:3, “the Lord is a man of war.” Not that I disrespect them or thier beliefs I just like to argue

 

[theistgal]

Gota say though, nothing throws them for a loop like exodus 15:3, “the Lord is a man of war.” Not that I disrespect them or thier beliefs I just like to argue

Hmm, don’t know why that would surprise them any more than Matthew 10:34.

 

[Alizarin]

Lol I live these “what if your wrong” questions. That’s a two way street. Even if I’m wrong I hope to have lived an honorable life and made my ancestors proud.

You’re absolutely right.

So I pose to you, what if the evolutionary theory of religion is right?

Doesn’t bother me one way or the other. I don’t have a personal stake in everything I discuss. Sometimes it’s just nice to explore an idea for the sake of exploring it, with no dog in the fight.

 

[Kallisto]

OK, I just said I was going to go back to lurking, but I do want to address this comment you made earlier in the thread.

I have known quite a few pagans and I can tell you this is not exactly correct. “Pagan” is an umbrella term covering a wide range of beliefs and groups, and some of them most definitely to NOT “coexist just fine with each other or other religions”.

This is not said disparagingly, simply to say there’s a difference between the two: Unlike in Christianity, Pagan religions do not state that other religions and gods are false and devil-influenced, and that their adherents are mislead/facing eternal damnation etc. If you know of a Pagan religion that does so, please let me know. It would be an interesting discovery!

For example, Satanists really look down Wiccans (one comment I just found from this Satanist’s site* describes them as “lovey-dovey-faeries-and-lollipops Wiccans”). (*warning, some profanity here!).

There are Christians that look down on others, and other Christians who don’t. So are you stating the former are the more correct representatives of your religion, negating others who are not so militant?

There are Jews who look down on others, and other Jews that don’t. Ditto Muslims, Atheists, and yes even Pagans. However, big distinction up ahead: in some of these religions ARE views against all other religions - e.g., “only one true god, others are false gods”. Meanwhile in other religions, there* are no disparaging views towards other religions*, such as the case with Pagan religions. A Pagan individual with personal issues against other religions is just that - representative of himself, not what the given Pagan religion advocates. If you know of an exception, please let me know. I’m always up for learning something new.

There are various types of Satanism, but that’s not Paganism. Those who worship Satan as a deity are, obviously, adhering to an interpretation of Christian mythology. The site you linked to clearly is not representing a specific pagan religion. It states it’s one individual’s personal blog and she blatantly states at the very top that she has an axe to grind. That’s rather different from being some sort of official site of a specific pagan religion or tradition.

In general, Satanists are similar to atheists in that while they might not think of or well of other religions, they’re incline to “live and let live” unless they feel another is foisting his beliefs on them. As such, both more often than not don’t have a problem with Pagans because Pagans don’t proselytize. However Satanists also don’t appreciate the erroneous assumption that they’re Pagans or, more often “even worse”, Wiccans with their the life-affirming, nature oriented “An’ it harm none” ways. The quote you provide is an example of that. Which has more to do with Wiccans and Satanists both being wrongly misconstrued as similar or the same. This was more prevalent back in the 1990s when there was less awareness of differences among non-mainstream practices. Note the blog you linked to is 2004 and hadn’t been updated (“Last updated: 23 August 2004 00:00 CDT”). It would be sad to know someone is still choking on their own personal issues nearly 10 years later!

There are umpteen Wiccan and Pagan websites accusing Christians of all sorts of persecutions, past and present, real and imagined.

Examples? I visit a fair number of sites and one such site does not come to mind. But, I can’t claim to be familiar with every site out there. But frankly, from what I regularly experience, the vast majority of them don’t discuss Christianity in any regard. They tend to focus on their own religion. Are the sites you’re referencing discussing medieval witch trials and have questionable research, or are they sites about the atrocities that are being committed in places like Africa upon those accused of witchcraft? Are they recognized news outlets or somehow otherwise authoritative, or are they simply personal sites voicing an individual’s opinion?

What I’m trying to say is that Paganism is not really all that different from Christianity as far as tolerance of other beliefs. They may say they’re different but come on - Pagans and Christians have one thing in common: they’re comprised of HUMANS!

I agree that PEOPLE are much the same whatever their religion. But, again, that’s different from Pagan religions denouncing other gods and religions as being false, or instructing their adherents to evangelize and turn non-Pagans towards the blessedness of Pagan deities.

 

[Skadi]

Doesn’t bother me one way or the other. I don’t have a personal stake in everything I discuss. Sometimes it’s just nice to explore an idea for the sake of exploring it, with no dog in the fight.

You have no Idea how much I agree with that

 

[Alizarin]

You have no Idea how much I agree with that

We should get along just fine then.

Since this thread is “Ask a Pagan”, and you are a pagan, let me ask you this: Do you worship in a group at all or are you a solitary practioner? And for that matter, what does worship consist of for you?

 

[Alizarin]

…that’s different from Pagan religions denouncing other gods and religions as being false, or instructing their adherents to evangelize and turn non-Pagans towards the blessedness of Pagan deities.

That’s an interesting point. I’ve been evangelized by Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Baptists, etc, but never by a neo-pagan. Kinda nice actually. Never liked being seen as a target, a potential recruit. Who does?

 

[theistgal]

I agree that PEOPLE are much the same whatever their religion. But, again, that’s different from Pagan religions denouncing other gods and religions as being false, or instructing their adherents to evangelize and turn non-Pagans towards the blessedness of Pagan deities.

Well, since every Pagan I’ve ever known insists on the right to create her/his own version of their religion, here’s a Pagan stating that:

.Paganism to be the orginal and truth faith(s)

and

Christianity is not a religion it is a dangerous mind-control program that encourages genocide.

So there’s at least one version of Paganism which states emphatically that Paganism is the “true faith” and Christianity is false.

 

[Skadi]

We should get along just fine then.

Since this thread is “Ask a Pagan”, and you are a pagan, let me ask you this: Do you worship in a group at all or are you a solitary practioner? And for that matter, what does worship consist of for you?

I’m a solitary myself but I do have contact with others and some people who are thinking of starting a group in the town I study in. You’d be surprised the number of Asatru in Montana.

As for Worship i think of it as living your life by your values, not just services. I do my best to live every day by the 9 noble virtues and to be prepared to die honorably if this is the day fate has chosen for me. But on holidays I usualy go out into the woods, meditate a bit, light a fire, and maybe burn a sacrifice of significance to the holiday. Because I practice mostly alone I usualy don’t speak at all, unless I feal it’s realy necisary.

That said I do hope to find a Kindred to join eventually.

 

[Skadi]

Well, since every Pagan I’ve ever known insists on the right to create her/his own version of their religion, here’s a Pagan stating that:

I now consider myself a Theistic Satanist(Tradtional Pagan) who knows Paganism to be the orginal and truth faith(s).

and

Christianity is not a religion it is a dangerous mind-control program that encourages genocide.

So there’s at least one version of Paganism which states emphatically that Paganism is the “true faith” and Christianity is false.

Haters Guna hate. Every religion has these people, and the question we should ask is “are they truly what they say they are?”. Is a man who goes to church every Sunday while beating his wife and children to a pulp truly Christian?

 

[Kallisto]

Well, since every Pagan I’ve ever known insists on the right to create her/his own version of their religion,

I don’t know how many Pagans you personally know but consider this: if all Pagans - or even the majority of Pagans - are all creating their own religion, it’s not feasible to claim they’re all practicing the same religion. If every Pagan religion is individualized (they’re not btw), with each person creating his own practice and beliefs, *what do they collectively belong to? *

But regardless, if you’re stating Pagan religions are all self-crafted then that too points to the person merely expressing his personal opinion, which does not hold true for “the” religion as a whole because they all have their own self-crafted beliefs.

There is a segment of Neopaganism that is solitary. But no, it does not represent the majority of Pagan religions, nor even the majority of Pagans. There are established Pagan and Witchcraft traditions, that are defined and even organized. There is a proper way to practice them, which includes adhering to what the religion advocates. Such practices do not advocate anything towards other religions.

Self-stylized beliefs are not representative of anyone’s beliefs beyond the individual to which they belong. There is nothing, for example, in Wicca that expresses any view towards Christianity or any other religion. Neither does Druidry, or Stregheria or Kemeticism, or Hellenismos or Asatru, etc.

There’s a Pagan stating that: I now consider myself a Theistic Satanist(Tradtional Pagan) who knows Paganism to be the orginal and truth faith(s). and

Christianity is not a religion it is a dangerous mind-control program that encourages genocide.

Again, that’s one person expressing their personal bias. The reality

So there’s at least one version of Paganism which states emphatically that Paganism is the “true faith” and Christianity is false.

Please see above. One person’s opinion does not represent the stance of an entire religion. Note the title of the links you provided: “I Hate Christianity”. Followed by “Ex-Christian, Now Pagan.” Not “we” or “[Insert Religion] Means You Need to Hate Christians”, it says "***I", the person is speaking for himself, not representative of an entire religion. It’s just another link to another sad individual with an axe to grind. Which is not the same thing as specific a Pagan or Witchcraft religion’s dogma declaring anything in regards to Christianity or any other religion.

 

[theistgal]

I don’t know how many Pagans you personally know but consider this: if all Pagans - or even the majority of Pagans - are all creating their own religion, it’s not feasible to claim they’re all practicing the same religion. If every Pagan religion is individualized (they’re not btw), with each person creating his own practice and beliefs, *what do they collectively belong to? *

But regardless, if you’re stating Pagan religions are all self-crafted then that too points to the person merely expressing his personal opinion, which does not hold true for “the” religion as a whole because they all have their own self-crafted beliefs.

There is a segment of Neopaganism that is solitary. But no, it does not represent the majority of Pagan religions, nor even the majority of Pagans. There are established Pagan and Witchcraft traditions, that are defined and even organized. There is a proper way to practice them, which includes adhering to what the religion advocates. Such practices do not advocate anything towards other religions.

Self-stylized beliefs are not representative of anyone’s beliefs beyond the individual to which they belong. There is nothing, for example, in Wicca that expresses any view towards Christianity or any other religion. Neither does Druidry, or Stregheria or Kemeticism, or Hellenismos or Asatru, etc.

Please see above. One person’s opinion does not represent the stance of an entire religion. Note the title of the links you provided: “I Hate Christianity”. Followed by “Ex-Christian, Now Pagan.” Not “we” or “[Insert Religion] Means You Need to Hate Christians”, it says “*****I”, the person is speaking for himself, not representative of an entire religion. It’s just another link to another sad individual with an axe to grind. Which is not the same thing as specific a Pagan or Witchcraft religion’s dogma declaring anything in regards to Christianity or any other religion.

I actually know a lot of pagans. I’ve lived in Southern California for over 30 years, much of that time in the Altadena/Pasadena area, where I lived and interacted with a group called the Society for Creative Anachronism. I have practiced different forms of paganism and have read quite a few books about it and Wicca as well. (My favorite Wiccan author is the late Scott Cunningham, who seems to have been a peaceful soul.)

My point is that there is no one “Pagan” religion, where you can point to it and say, “That’s Paganism!” I’m not criticizing for that, just saying that’s the way I have perceived it in my experience. And that’s both a weakness and a strength, IMHO.