Ask a pagan

[Skadi]

My point is that there is no one “Pagan” religion, where you can point to it and say, “That’s Paganism!” I’m not criticizing for that, just saying that’s the way I have perceived it in my experience. And that’s both a weakness and a strength, IMHO.

I would agree, Paganism isn’t a single religion but in fact includes many many unrelated different groups. It is not just the religions of classical antiquity (As Wiccan and many Witchcraft traditions are new) or even religions that evolved from Indo-Aryan religion (Again this does not include Wicca and would include Hinduism and by extension Budhism).

It’s an almost impossible to define.

 

[Alizarin]

I’m a solitary myself but I do have contact with others and some people who are thinking of starting a group in the town I study in. You’d be surprised the number of Asatru in Montana.

I’d imagine a state of mostly open and rugged country lends itself to some aspects of Germanic/Norse paganism better than an urban setting like say NYC would.

on holidays I usualy go out into the woods, meditate a bit, light a fire, and maybe burn a sacrifice of significance to the holiday.

Sounds pretty good in its own right. Rather Thoreauvian. Nice to have space (physical and mental) to onself when it comes to religion.

 

[Alizarin]

My favorite Wiccan author is the late Scott Cunningham, who seems to have been a peaceful soul.

I’m with you on that one…

My point is that there is no one “Pagan” religion, where you can point to it and say, “That’s Paganism!” I’m not criticizing for that, just saying that’s the way I have perceived it in my experience. And that’s both a weakness and a strength, IMHO.

That’s a good point. Of course, same could be said for Christianity. Some Christians are creedal, some reject all creeds. Some are liturgical, some are liturgy-free. Some believe Jesus is God incarnate (my camp) while others believe He was essentially just an enlightened teacher (trad. Unitarians, liberal Episcopalians like Spong etc). Even within Catholicism, you have Latin Mass attendees on the one hand, and Sr. Margaret Farley on the other. Christian unity in definition – or anything else – is at best a wild goose chase IMO.

 

[JustaServant]

Hey there everyone I want to start off by saying I’m not here to start arguments or offend anyone. I’m here because I have a lot of questions about Christianity. I’m young and enjoy learning about different religions, points of view on different issues but I figure before I start going around asking my questions I want to give people the opportunity to ask me questions. Anything about paganism you have ever wondered about or something that makes you uncomfortable? Feel free to ask! .

Is there really such a religion as “pagan”? The word has always been used as a general designation/

 

[Kallisto]

I actually know a lot of pagans. I’ve lived in Southern California for over 30 years, much of that time in the Altadena/Pasadena area, where I lived and interacted with a group called the Society for Creative Anachronism. I have practiced different forms of paganism and have read quite a few books about it and Wicca as well. (My favorite Wiccan author is the late Scott Cunningham, who seems to have been a peaceful soul.)

My point is that there is no one “Pagan” religion, where you can point to it and say, “That’s Paganism!” I’m not criticizing for that, just saying that’s the way I have perceived it in my experience. And that’s both a weakness and a strength, IMHO.

That’s wonderful. Personally, I’ve been a polytheist and an actual Wiccan (initiate) for a few decades now and have experienced first hand various Pagan religions over the years.

Btw, Scott was a wonderful human being but what he presented is not actual Wicca, rather how to create an individual practice based on Wiccan elements for those who could not seek out actual Wicca training. Solitary Eclectic Witchcraft is a more accurate name for it, though yes many today use “wicca” in a very generic sense and erroneously as a synonym for “witchcraft”, in large part due to such books. Actual Wicca is still a specific priesthood and is still very much practiced, nearly worldwide. Sadly DIY “solitary” books became a huge commercial success in the late 1980s leading to an explosion of books and increased popularity in the '90s. (And unfortunately much is not always worth the paper they’re printed on. But that’s a whole other issue unto itself!)

The point I was making, and what the links you provided demonstrated, is that an individual’s bias is not evidence of that person’s bias being an established element of the given Pagan religion - i.e., not a tenet of the given religion. That’s what I was asking for, an example of how Pagan religions allegedly advocated either a “one true way” and/or denounced other religions and deities. I did not say there was ONE Pagan religion. I did say that someone representing his own opinion, and practicing something personally crafted is not the same as reflecting “this holds true of x-religion.” This came about because of your response to my comment about how Pagan religions co-exist peacefully not only with one another but with other religions because they don’t advocate bias towards others. A person with their own bias and an axe to grind is a different thing.

Also just to be clear, I had no intent to question your personal experience, I only asked to have an idea. I addressed whether something is in fact found within the dictates of Pagan religions themselves versus whether something is merely a given individual’s biased opinion.

 

[Skadi]

I’d imagine a state of mostly open and rugged country lends itself to some aspects of Germanic/Norse paganism better than an urban setting like say NYC would.

Sounds pretty good in its own right. Rather Thoreauvian. Nice to have space (physical and mental) to onself when it comes to religion.

I would agree. I’ve read far to much Robert E. Howard to ever be a fan of Urban living. That man just despised urban civilization haha.

And yes, i think it’s very important to be close to nature. I don’t think I know of any religion that would go against that. When I bust out the bow for hunting season every fall its an almost religious experience for me. I can’t even describe the fealing. That’s why I am so devoted to Skadi (^ahhhhhhh ) as she’s the Goddess of the Hunt, Archery, Mountains, and Skiing (or snowboarding!).

I Also revere Tyr, God of single combat, honor, and justice. Also my Surname (Walters, Son of Walter) is often connected to Tyr.

Ullr has almost identical qualities as well as being a god of war (specifically in winter) and victory. He is said to be the finest archer and skier of all the Gods. Some believe his hall, Ydilar, is considered a possible afterlife destination for the greates hunters.

Those are the three I usualy worship or bear in mind in every day life, as they have great significance to me.i do honor all the Gods though.

 

[Blessed_is_He]

Studied Wicca for 2 years reading these posts bring me back. I’m like oh I know the answer to these questions. Anyways, I was a solitary but later wanted to join a coven. There are a lot of things I miss about it like Sabbath and estate, close to nature, life felt so magical. At first I felt happy but quickly it felt dark and scary. I always wondered why I had to cast a circle or prepare sacred space just to protect myself. I kept comparing it to Christianity and thought well praying to God, Mary, angels or saints I never had to protect myself. I’m afraid of it but I miss it. I have dreams about joining back and I feel tempted at times. But the thought of well, slight thought this is of Satan freaks me out. My question is why do I keep feeling drawn to it than next minute back to Christianity?

 

[Kallisto]

Studied Wicca for 2 years reading these posts bring me back. I’m like oh I know the answer to these questions. Anyways, I was a solitary but later wanted to join a coven. There are a lot of things I miss about it like Sabbath and estate, close to nature, life felt so magical. At first I felt happy but quickly it felt dark and scary. I always wondered why I had to cast a circle or prepare sacred space just to protect myself. I kept comparing it to Christianity and thought well praying to God, Mary, angels or saints I never had to protect myself. I’m afraid of it but I miss it. I have dreams about joining back and I feel tempted at times. But the thought of well, slight thought this is of Satan freaks me out. My question is why do I keep feeling drawn to it than next minute back to Christianity?

I get that you mean sabbats (“sabbath”), are you referring to esbats (“estate”)? I just want to be sure I’m not misinterpreting.

You bring up a good example of how lacking the information can be for solitary practices that borrow from Wicca. A Wiccan circle is not cast for protection, it’s cast to create sacred space, thus making the space within it appropriate for worship and suitable for the presence of the Wiccan gods, much like the inside of a church is sacred space and for the presence of the Christian god. And just like a church’s sanctity can be said to guard against the profane or evil, so too does a Wiccan circle. The confusion comes in because there are some similar steps in a Wiccan circle and that of circle casting in Ceremonial Magic but they are not the same. Wicca is a religion, the purposes and intents between the two differ.

 

[Alizarin]

The confusion comes in because there are some similar steps in a Wiccan circle and that of circle casting in Ceremonial Magic but they are not the same. Wicca is a religion, the purposes and intents between the two differ.

As I recall, Gardner was fairly influenced by Crowley, though, wasn’t he? I mean, your point still stands, of course, I just bring it up to explain why it may have a similar spiritual flavor.

 

[theistgal]

Btw, Scott was a wonderful human being but what he presented is not actual Wicca, rather how to create an individual practice based on Wiccan elements for those who could not seek out actual Wicca training. Solitary Eclectic Witchcraft is a more accurate name for it, though yes many today use “wicca” in a very generic sense and erroneously as a synonym for “witchcraft”, in large part due to such books.

Now wait a minute - what do you mean it wasn’t “actual Wicca”? Scott certainly thought it was.

Why isn’t solitary Wicca is as legitimate and valid a path as coven-based Wicca? Who’s the Wiccan Pope that gets to make that judgment call?

 

[Kallisto]

As I recall, Gardner was fairly influenced by Crowley, though, wasn’t he? I mean, your point still stands, of course, I just bring it up to explain why it may have a similar spiritual flavor.

More precisely, both of them were influenced by the popular interest in Western esotericism that predated both men. There was an esoteric renaissance (so to speak) in Britain that began a goodly 300 years prior to the birth of either one.

They were acquainted and no doubt there was an exchange of information, as there were among occultists and folk practitioners of the time. However, known documents indicate their discussion centered on the OTO. And the connection between the two men was not very long. They did not meet until extremely late in Crowley’s life. Meanwhile Crowley was long acquainted (decades) with another witch from the same area, Sybil Leek.

In letters written by Gardner, he stated that Crowley had some interest in his Craft but “nothing came of it.” (A letter from Gardner to John Symonds in 1950). Also, Crowley had disdain for certain components of the Craft, and he certainly did not appreciate the feminine role within it.

As to what Gardner may have borrowed, a concrete list is not known. Elements that are similar among practices may have been introduced by Gardner, or may have found their way by some other means. There was an active esoteric community during those times.

 

[Kallisto]

Now wait a minute - what do you mean it wasn’t “actual Wicca”? Scott certainly thought it was.

Scott was aware that what he was presenting wasn’t authentic Wicca as he actually knew various Wiccan initiates and had enough exposure to their traditions to know that such a thing was not feasible to present. It’s a priesthood, not a religion of the masses. He also knew that in order to have a full understanding of the Craft requires going through the complete initiatory experience - which comes with taking oaths to one’s gods, among which the initiate vows to keep sacrosanct the Craft and its teachings - i.e., remain silent and keep it oathbound lest it be profaned. Which means for him to have presented authentic Wicca would have required divulging whatever tradition he chose to expose (he didn’t) and in the process break the oaths he would have taken (he didn’t).

That’s why what he presented is very easy and light 101-type stuff. It’s perfectly fine for what it is - a very benign, easy to understand introduction to creating a personal style of practice. It’s a helpful beginning point for a general Craft practice and ethics derived from Wicca. But no, Cunningham knew he was not presenting the actual religion.

Why isn’t solitary Wicca is as legitimate and valid a path as coven-based Wicca? Who’s the Wiccan Pope that gets to make that judgment call?

Please don’t conflate what I wrote with being judgmental. Stating that something is not something else is NOT an attack on the given practice’s worth. If I say “Catholicism is not Wicca” - how is that judgmental? It doesn’t invalidate it, it says NOTHING about the validity of it as a religion in its own right. And I dare say not one person here would see it as an attack!

Solitary witchcraft practices are perfectly fine, they’re just not actual Wicca. That’s no different than me saying “Wicca is not Stregheria” (Italian witchcraft) or “Wicca is not Brujeria” (Spanish witchcraft). It simply says they are different practices. Period.

But to answer your question as to who gets to say what Wicca is, the answer is: its priesthood. The priests and priestesses who maintain and perpetuate it. Given they are the only ones who do have full access to the religion, and are the ones who preserve it, they are quite capable of discerning whether something is the religion or merely similar or something else altogether.

 

[theistgal]

But to answer your question as to who gets to say what Wicca is, the answer is: its priesthood. The priests and priestesses who maintain and perpetuate it. Given they are the only ones who do have full access to the religion, and are the ones who preserve it, they are quite capable of discerning whether something is the religion or merely similar or something else altogether.

Wow - that is something I never heard before, and I have delved deep into the subject, from the inside out.

The “priesthood” gets to say what Wicca is? The secret Wiccan priesthood that only a few initiates know about? Is that really where you want to make your stand?

 

[Kallisto]

Wow - that is something I never heard before, and I have delved deep into the subject, from the inside out.

The “priesthood” gets to say what Wicca is? The secret Wiccan priesthood that only a few initiates know about? Is that really where you want to make your stand?

How do you define “I have delved deep into the subject from the inside out”? Are you an initiate?

There is no need, unless you’re intending to be condescending, to put the priesthood in quotation marks. Wicca IS an inititatory priesthood, there is no laity. Also, considering the priesthood exists on various continents, it’s hardly “a few”.

I don’t know what your snarkiness is about. I’m simply answering your question. It would seem you have an issue with Wiccans, why is that?

 

[Alizarin]

In letters written by Gardner, he stated that Crowley had some interest in his Craft but “nothing came of it.” (A letter from Gardner to John Symonds in 1950). Also, Crowley had disdain for certain components of the Craft, and he certainly did not appreciate the feminine role within it.

He certainly woulldn’t appreciate the feminine dominance present in it today. And Gardner wouldn’t be crazy about the inclusiveness. He wasn’t what exactly fond of homosexuals as I recall.

 

[Skadi]

He certainly woulldn’t appreciate the feminine dominance present in it today. And Gardner wouldn’t be crazy about the inclusiveness. He wasn’t what exactly fond of homosexuals as I recall.

But Alex Sanders was gay, correct? I believe I recall that.

 

[Kallisto]

He certainly woulldn’t appreciate the feminine dominance present in it today. And Gardner wouldn’t be crazy about the inclusiveness. He wasn’t what exactly fond of homosexuals as I recall.

Traditional Wicca is much the same now as it was then in regards to the feminine and masculine. But it is likely that you’re correct, Crowley would have had even less appreciation for the forms of Witchcraft that arose out of the feminist movement.

Gardner may have had a personal issue with homosexuality but that’s separate from what he’d think about the Wiccan the religion itself (there is nothing in Wicca that addresses individual’s sexual orientation). There have always been gays in the Craft but, just like when dealing with the rest of society at that time, many simply would have kept that aspect of their lives private. Sexual orientation doesn’t preclude an individual from becoming a priest/ess.

Though I’d like to think if either Gardner or Crowley were still around that they’d have grown in their views over the decades.

 

[Kallisto]

But Alex Sanders was gay, correct? I believe I recall that.

Bisexual. And his ex-wife Maxine is still alive and a respected Elder of the religion.

 

[Alizarin]

Traditional Wicca is much the same now as it was then in regards to the feminine and masculine. But it is likely that you’re correct, Crowley would have had even less appreciation for the forms of Witchcraft that arose out of the feminist movement.

Gardner may have had a personal issue with homosexuality but that’s separate from what he’d think about the Wiccan the religion itself (there is nothing in Wicca that addresses individual’s sexual orientation). There have always been gays in the Craft but, just like when dealing with the rest of society at that time, many simply would have kept that aspect of their lives private. Sexual orientation doesn’t preclude an individual from becoming a priest/ess.

Though I’d like to think if either Gardner or Crowley were still around that they’d have grown in their views over the decades.

I’m trying to picture Crowley wrapping his mind around Starhawk and the Spiral Dance

 

[Kallisto]

I’m trying to picture Crowley wrapping his mind around Starhawk and the Spiral Dance

I’ll go you one better: envision Crowley and Z Budapest sitting down for a chat! Pairing up gasoline and a lit match would be less explosive. LOL :slapfight: