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MartinJordan
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Hi Guan. Would you agree that it was St. Peter who actually legitimized Charismatic worship?
MJ
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MJ
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guanophore
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For St. Peter, “worship” consisted of the Eucharist. But yes, he certainly proclaimed the legitimacy of the gift and affirmed it’s origin.
I would say it is the Holy Spirit who legitimizes Charismatic worship. The Apostles just proclaimed what had already been revealed by God.
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ltwin
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The only Pentecostal groups I’m aware of that believes tongues is necessary for salvation are Oneness Pentecostals. This is because they believe that in addition to faith/repentance, both water baptism and Spirit baptism (evidenced by speaking in tongues) are necessary components to salvation.
I’m not aware of any Pentecostal that believes a church service is not “valid” if tongues are not spoken. That would obviously be a man-made rule and one would be hard pressed to find any biblical justification for it.
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armyross
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WOW you look into things way to much. All I said is I don’t think everyone can just jump up ans start talking in tounges like I have seen at places chill out no need to question what I belive. Chill
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armyross
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Agree it does help you feel Jesus. My friend he plays drums at the church great person.
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MartinJordan
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Oops. That’s right…got to be careful with my wording,
St. Peter though was instrumental in proclaiming it right? Just want to clarify.
MJ
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grannymh
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May I gently point out that it is obvious that people need to re-read Chapter 14, Gospel of John and Chapter 15 of Acts. As for the protocol of the visible Catholic Church present on earth…On the contrary, everything in the NT is part of the once for all Divine Deposit of faith.
Sad to say, there are invalid assumptions about the relationship of Scripture to the Catholic Deposit of Faith. Catholic because the Deposit of Faith is part of the Catholic Church.
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grannymh
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Tiny clarification – please see post 325.
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benjohnson
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You got my honest reaction… I din’t say I was correct
For Lutherans, revelation is closed - and for us, speaking and interpreting tongues seems a bit to close to that. Given what I’ve seen here in CAF from those that in the charismatic movement (catholic and non-catholic) - it is our loss. There’s a particular strong but gentle grace that seems to come with these gifts.
Honestly, when you said that the charismatic movement was dwindling in the Catholic church it made be a bit sad - even though it would probably drive me bonkers if I saw it in our sanctuary. But you never know!
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peace2u2
Guest
The gift of tongues is NOT “playing God” - its communication with God thru a special prayer language. It’s a free flowing of the Spirit thru our voice.
Romans 8:26
“In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.”
I think our difficulties with tongues lies in our own fears and doubts probably because we are not taught in our religious education formation not only what these gifts are but we are not taught how to earnestly seek these charismatic gifts. Our religious formation tends to focus just on the 7 Gifts of the Holy Spirit that we receive in Confirmation. The Holy Spirit is not going to give us these charismatic gifts if we do not want them. We have to ask for them and then we have to humble ourselves and be willing to open our mouths and let the Spirit flow thru our voice - We have to participate and allow the Holy Spirit to use our tongue and voice.
We each have our own prayer voice or language, each as unique as each one of us is unique.
Interesting quote from Cardinal Suenes book, A New Pentecost?, “Let us admit it: we are terribly complicated when it comes to giving outward expression to our deep religious feelings before God or in front of others. … . We have been ossified by formalism and ritualism. Our liturgical gatherings have only begun to awaken to the meaning of communal liturgy after centuries of passivity. But though a thaw has set in, we have yet to experience the warmth and enthusiasm that should characterize our liturgical celebrations in community.”
Grannymh, I believe you had mentioned in an earlier post or maybe it was in another thread on the gift of tongues about “yielding to the Holy Spirit”. I have come to realize that this is easier than we think - and probably because when, at least for me this happened, we try to pray in tongues we try and pray with our minds when the purpose of praying in tongues is not to use our minds but to pray with our hearts - allowing our faith and our trust in the Holy Spirit to allow this gift to formulate thru our voice - We need to let go no matter how silly we might think we might sound - Quite honestly, of all the times I have been prayed over by someone using this gift, it never sounds silly - but is really beautiful and the experience has always been positive, its like being wrapped in God’s warmth and love - His protection.
Also, since only God knows our hearts and this is a prayer of the heart, Satan cannot understand this direct communication with God which can be very powerful when we use this gift with intercessory prayer 1 Cor. 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit.” The gift of tongues frustrates Satan’s plan. We must understand also that this gift is not superior to the most important gift which is the gift of love, but when we use this gift of tongues with love and in love, it is special indeed as St. Paul does say that he would like every one to speak in tongues but combined with the other gifts not in superiority of the other gifts.
Prayer is direct communication with God which deepens our relationship with God and tongues is just one aspect of prayer which can deepen our communication with God and therefore strengthen our relationship with Him.
*Of the Jubilus of the Heart by Jacopone da Todi
The Jubilus in fire awakes
And straight the man must sing and pray,
His tongue in childish stammering shakes,
Nor knows he what his lips may say;
He can not hide or quench away
That Sweet pure and infinite…
…And see? His neighbor stand apart,
And mock the senseless chatter;
They deem his speech a foolish blur,
A shadow of his spirit’s light.*
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peace2u2
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Thank you for these links. I will have to print the publication titled, A Key To Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church as I read and absorb material better in the form of a book than reading from the comptuer. It is 181 pages but if I print on both sides of the paper, it is only 90 pages. Time to buy some ink.
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grannymh
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No need to be sad. Check these links for all kinds of wonderful information about the growing Catholic Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church.You got my honest reaction… I din’t say I was correct
For Lutherans, revelation is closed - and for us, speaking and interpreting tongues seems a bit to close to that. Given what I’ve seen here in CAF from those that in the charismatic movement (catholic and non-catholic) - it is our loss. There’s a particular strong but gentle grace that seems to come with these gifts.
Honestly, when you said that the charismatic movement was dwindling in the Catholic church it made be a bit sad - even though it would probably drive me bonkers if I saw it in our sanctuary. But you never know!
.nsc-chariscenter.org/Search/
nsc-chariscenter.org/Pentecost/index.asp
nsc-chariscenter.org/Resources/other_av.asp
nsc-chariscenter.org/About/vision.asp
nsc-chariscenter.org/Events/
nsc-chariscenter.org/AboutCCR/
nsc-chariscenter.org/Statements.asp
Stay tuned.
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grannymh
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I often do the same thing, even with posts. It is difficult for me to read from the screen.
As I recall, the paperback version of *A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church *by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh is relatively inexpensive. It is published by Key of David Publications, ISBN: 0-87029-033-9
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grannymh
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Thank you.
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guanophore
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Yeah, I get that a lot.
Then your belief is Catholic, and I think that Itwin will also agree on this point. Even those who can just jump out and start talking in tongues would only do so during service in an orderlyl manner.
I was questioning what you meant by what you said, because your statement did not sound consistent with Catholic faith. One of the goals of this forum is to question faith - people are free to believe whatever they choose, we just all need to respect one another. If anyone here advertises themselves as Catholic, yet espouses non-Catholic or anti-Catholic beliefs, you can be sure I will says something about it. I am not directing at to you as a person. I can’t know you, or anything about you on these threads, so I can only go by what you write in the post.
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guanophore
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What do you mean, “revelation is closed”? God has said everything He has to say to mankind, and now we are just supposed to figure everything out by ourselves?
Yes, I can affirm this, but there has also been a great deal of abuse of the gifts, they have been misused and it is easy to see why the Church would minimalize them.
It has made me sad too, but the gifts are there to serve the Church, not themselves. Most of those I have known in the movement over the years are now serving in parish ministries.Honestly, when you said that the charismatic movement was dwindling in the Catholic church it made be a bit sad - even though it would probably drive me bonkers if I saw it in our sanctuary. But you never know!
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guanophore
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I have found affordable copies of this in print if you prefer a paper copy.
probably cheaper than an ink cartridges.
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grannymh
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In Catholic terminology, Public Revelation is closed.
Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 65-67.
FYI --This book was printed so that we do not have to figure everything out by ourselves.
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guanophore
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But do Lutherans share this view?In Catholic terminology, Public Revelation is closed.
Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 65-67.
FYI --This book was printed so that we do not have to figure everything out by ourselves.
And even if so, does the completion of public revelation mean that there is no PRIVATE revelation? Such as in the exercise of the charismatic gifts of prophesy, for instance, or the appearances of the Saints?
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grannymh
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I cannot speak for Lutherans.
Private revelation is totally separate from public revelation. This is public revelation. “In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by a Son.” Christ, the Son of God made man.
(Source: Hebrews 1: 1-4; CCC 65)
Private revelation exists in the writings of some of the Saints and in some of the Holy Spirit’s many, many gifts. The purpose of private revelation is to help us live better lives according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. As individual events, private revelation could include a reference to an existing doctrine. For example, many saints urge us to participate at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as often as possible. This is a reference to the doctrine of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.
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