Ask a Pentecostal

[ltwin]

In the Catholic Church, the best part of the service is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

There are some Pentecostals who believe in Real Presence. Daniel Tomberlin, an ordained bishop in the Church of God (Cleveland, TN), wrote a book 3 years ago called Pentecostal Sacraments: Encountering God at the Altar where he draws on the thought of Gregory Palamas and Pentecostal spirituality to inform his own thoughts on Real Presence. This review of the book from Regent University gives some idea as to what Tomberlin is talking about.

Daniel Albrecht wrote about Pentecostal worship and liturgy in The Spirit and Spirituality:Volume 4, saying that the dimensions of Pentecostal worship included worship as: encounter with God, as attentiveness to God, and as yielding a sensitivity to human need. Pentecostals believe strongly in the manifest presence of God, and this belief endows them with expectancy to encounter him in worship.

Believers expect God to come and meet with them. Pentecostals believe that God alone inaugurates such a meeting by God’s gracious acts and presence. Believers can only prepare themselves. The worshippers cannot force God’s presence and movings. They can, however, prepare and wait for God’s actions in and among them, and then respond to the “flow of the Spirit” when God’s “promptings” or “stirrings” occur. Although pastoral or liturgical leadership is exerted, Pentecostals look to the Spirit who ultimately initiates, guides, facilitates, and leads the worship. (p. 72).

In attending to God, Albrecht writes, “Pentecostals see themselves engaged in serving or performing for the Divine. God is the audience and the congregation performs the drama of praise. . . . It is a way of ‘ministering to God.’” This attentive adoration “sensitizes them to the needs of humanity.” Albrecht illustrates,

The pattern is understood as follows: in worship, the believers minister to God and then God in turn ministers in and through the believers to others. For example, in many Pentecostal church services it is customary to engage in some form of healing rite during the worship service. Congregants may form circles of prayer, praying for one another’s needs. Or, the pastor may call those who desire prayer for a need to come to the altar to be prayed for by the elders. At other times, worshippers may simply be asked to stand to signify a prayer request. Other worshipers will then come to pray with them. In each case, congregants reflect a sensitivity to human needs, a sensitivity founded on the belief that God is concerned with the human condition in all of its manifestations and that God calls and gifts believers to minister to human needs. (pp. 72-73)

The word of God/biblical authority, spiritual gifts, an oral liturgy, and spontaneity (which allows improvisation in the oral liturgy) facilitate these dimensions of worship. On spontaneity, Albrecht compares the interplay between the oral liturgy and “liturgical improvisation” with jazz, where a scored or scripted melody is well known or memorized but the musicians are free to spontaneously adapt, invent, expand, and embellish on the original. The Pentecostal script is well known (even if it isn’t written down), but it expects improvisation. It is through spontaneity and improvisation that Pentecostals attempt to interact with and follow the Spirit with authentic and heartfelt expressions (p. 76).

 

[guanophore]

  I cannot speak for Lutherans.

You answered the question I asked of him…

Private revelation is totally separate from public revelation.

Exactly! That is why I asked him what revelation he was talking about.

This is public revelation. “In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by a Son.” Christ, the Son of God made man.

(Source: Hebrews 1: 1-4; CCC 65)

granny, we are talking about whether or not God reveals anything to His faithful through charismatic gifts.
grannymh;10763874:

Private revelation exists in the writings of some of the Saints and in some of the Holy Spirit's many, many gifts. The purpose of private revelation is to help us live better lives according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. As individual events, private revelation could include a reference to an existing doctrine. For example, many saints urge us to participate at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as often as possible. This is a reference to the doctrine of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

I don’t think Lutherans share this view…and hence, my question to benjohnson. :yup:

 

[armyross]

Yeah, I get that a lot.

Then your belief is Catholic, and I think that Itwin will also agree on this point. Even those who can just jump out and start talking in tongues would only do so during service in an orderlyl manner.

I was questioning what you meant by what you said, because your statement did not sound consistent with Catholic faith. One of the goals of this forum is to question faith - people are free to believe whatever they choose, we just all need to respect one another. If anyone here advertises themselves as Catholic, yet espouses non-Catholic or anti-Catholic beliefs, you can be sure I will says something about it. I am not directing at to you as a person. I can’t know you, or anything about you on these threads, so I can only go by what you write in the post.

No worries. I am still a faily new Catholis. I was raised LDS and then went through RCIA. I may sound a little short at times on here but thats just because I am deployed and the Army brings out the best of us somtimes.

 

[ltwin]

Private revelation is totally separate from public revelation. This is public revelation. “In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by a Son.” Christ, the Son of God made man.
(Source: Hebrews 1: 1-4; CCC 65)

Private revelation exists in the writings of some of the Saints and in some of the Holy Spirit’s many, many gifts. The purpose of private revelation is to help us live better lives according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. As individual events, private revelation could include a reference to an existing doctrine. For example, many saints urge us to participate at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as often as possible. This is a reference to the doctrine of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

This is sort of how Pentecostals distinguish it. We believe in continuing private revelation that must be tested by public revelation.

 

[guanophore]

This is sort of how Pentecostals distinguish it. We believe in continuing private revelation that must be tested by public revelation.

Itwin…sometimes you Pentecostals sound so Catholic!

 

[benjohnson]

But do Lutherans share this view?

Yes! Confessional Lutherans certainly do - the word ‘fatima’ is enough to get us foaming at the mouth.

 

[MartinJordan]

Itwin…sometimes you Pentecostals sound so Catholic!

MJ

 

[guanophore]

Yes! Confessional Lutherans certainly do - the word ‘fatima’ is enough to get us foaming at the mouth.

I am still confused, ben. Fatima is considered private, not public revelation, which,as grannyh has stated, is considered to be closed with the death of the last apostle. I understand that Lutherans have retained the Aposotlic teaching on public revelation, but it sounds like you are saying that you reject private revelation.

I cannot speak for Lutherans.

Private revelation is totally separate from public revelation.

Private revelation exists in the writings of some of the Saints and in some of the Holy Spirit’s many, many gifts. The purpose of private revelation is to help us live better lives according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. As individual events, private revelation could include a reference to an existing doctrine. For example, many saints urge us to participate at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as often as possible. This is a reference to the doctrine of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

The reason I ask is because it seems impossible to accept the charismatic gifts, as many of are dependent upon, and expressive of, private revelation. If one rejects the principle of private revelation, then one would have to also reject the pentecostal experience.

 

[peace2u2]

Itwin, …but if you were in front of my children, I would tell them that they should look up to you and your faith. But not that they should follow you

God bless you!

Itwin, it would be a blessing to have you before me and my children and you too Grannymh; Your all “on fire” with the Holy Spirit, and, if you were before us, I would ask if you would pray over us in tongues. I’m sure it would be a moment that we would never forget and you’d probably by the grace of God, ignite a brush fire!

 

[grannymh]

I am still confused, ben. Fatima is considered private, not public revelation, which,as grannyh has stated, is considered to be closed with the death of the last apostle.

Please note
that I have **not **posted that public revelation is considered to be closed with the death of the last Apostle.

Please note
that the cited paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition did not say that public revelation is considered to be closed with the death of the last Apostle.



Links. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10763697&postcount=336
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10763874&postcount=338

 

[guanophore]

Please note
that I have **not **posted that public revelation is considered to be closed with the death of the last Apostle.

Please note
that the cited paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition did not say that public revelation is considered to be closed with the death of the last Apostle.



Links. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10763697&postcount=336
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10763874&postcount=338

Sorry, poorly worded. Grannyh has said that public revelation is closed.

The Pentecostal gifts are considered private revelation.

Do Lutherans reject private revelation?

 

[Izdaari]

What’s the deal with pentecostal women not being allowed to wear makeup or pants?

My Pentecostal experience is with Open Bible and later Assemblies of God. Neither puts any restriction on women regarding makeup or pants.

 

[lance4648]

Wow, I have just finished reading all 24 pages of posts and comments and I must say that I’m impressed with how cordial and knowledgeable the posts have been. I was born and raised in the Assemblies of God and I have recently started reading Catholic Answers to learn more about the Catholic church. The more I read the more I realize that we have so much in common and I’m glad to call all of you my Christian brothers and sisters.
I have to admit that before I got on this forum I had many misconceptions about Catholics and for that I’m truly sorry. I hope to have an opportunity to chat with many of you guys and learn much more about the faith from your own personal experiences.

All the best,

Lance

 

[benjohnson]

.

Do Lutherans reject private revelation?

We definatly share the good news of God’s grace from person to person. But we wouldn’t make shrines, nor would the church expound on any private revelation.

Don’t get me wrong… We love that others make shrines and even take joy in them. But for example, Dietrich Bonhoeffer got a plaque, rather lousy sculputre, and a small museum. We’re a little frozen in this regarde.

 

[Porknpie]

We definatly share the good news of God’s grace from person to person. But we wouldn’t make shrines, nor would the church expound on any private revelation.

Don’t get me wrong… We love that others make shrines and even take joy in them. But for example, Dietrich Bonhoeffer got a plaque, rather lousy sculputre, and a small museum. We’re a little frozen in this regarde.

Ben, so the answer is no?

 

[guanophore]

Wow, I have just finished reading all 24 pages of posts and comments and I must say that I’m impressed with how cordial and knowledgeable the posts have been. I was born and raised in the Assemblies of God and I have recently started reading Catholic Answers to learn more about the Catholic church. The more I read the more I realize that we have so much in common and I’m glad to call all of you my Christian brothers and sisters.
I have to admit that before I got on this forum I had many misconceptions about Catholics and for that I’m truly sorry. I hope to have an opportunity to chat with many of you guys and learn much more about the faith from your own personal experiences.

All the best,

Lance

Welcome to CAF Lance. I hope with you!

I attended an A of G for about a year when I was in college. It was a very different experience for me, having been raised Catholic and accustomed to only Latin Liturgy. I also find that Pentecostals are actually more Catholic than many Protestant groups.

 

[guanophore]

We definatly share the good news of God’s grace from person to person. But we wouldn’t make shrines, nor would the church expound on any private revelation.

Don’t get me wrong… We love that others make shrines and even take joy in them. But for example, Dietrich Bonhoeffer got a plaque, rather lousy sculputre, and a small museum. We’re a little frozen in this regarde.

Did I understand that Lutherans are cessationinsts when it comes to the charismatic gifts?

I just finished a study on the life and work of Dietrich Bonhoeffer with great joy. What a gutsy guy! I hope I am never called to make such choices, but if I am, that I will make them with the same courage.

Does Lutheran theology allow that God can give an individual a powerful revelation that is meant to be shared with the Church?

Do you consider that such figures as Luther and Melanchthon were so moved, like prophets of the OT?

 

[kycqster]

I apologize in advance if this has already been asked - I didn’t read ALL of the pages of questions…

I trust that you place supreme importance on sacred scripture - the Bible - but how do you know that the books in the Bible are actually inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that there aren’t other books floating around that may be inspired but aren’t included in the Bible? At some level I believe that all non-Catholic Christians should read every book that was considered for inclusion in the Bible and decide for themselves which are inspired and which aren’t. Of course, many would come to different conclusions about the books, just like holy-spirit inspired sola scriptura Christians can come to completely different conclusions about the necessity of baptism.

At the heart of my question is how a non-Catholic “Bible believing” Christian can use a book compiled by Councils of the Catholic Church without acknowledging, at some level, that the Church had the Authority to deem the books of the New Testament “inspired”, and if that’s the case, when did the Church lose that authority?

Thanks for being here and being so open in your responses!

 

[ltwin]

I apologize in advance if this has already been asked - I didn’t read ALL of the pages of questions…

Posts 173 and 178, both on page 12, touch somewhat on the issue of how Pentecostals view the canon.

I trust that you place supreme importance on sacred scripture - the Bible - but how do you know that the books in the Bible are actually inspired by the Holy Spirit,

We know by church consensus. Through a drawn out process that lasted centuries, the church came to the conclusion that certain books were inspired and certain books were not. There was no decree. It was by consensus. Factors the church used to discern the authority of different books include apostolicity, universality, church use, survivability, age, authorship, and authenticity. The church did not decide which books should be in the biblical canon, but simply acknowledged those already recognized by God’s people. The church was not the authority, but saw the authority in the inspired Word.

and that there aren’t other books floating around that may be inspired but aren’t included in the Bible?

Do you have any candidates in mind? Perhaps the Book of Mormon? Well, we know that isn’t authentic at all. Any new book or revelation will not be accepted because quite plainly it would lack authority, authenticity, and universality. Not to mention the other factors.

At some level I believe that all non-Catholic Christians should read every book that was considered for inclusion in the Bible and decide for themselves which are inspired and which aren’t. Of course, many would come to different conclusions about the books, just like holy-spirit inspired sola scriptura Christians can come to completely different conclusions about the necessity of baptism.

Canonization was not an individual process. It was a process of consensus.

At the heart of my question is how a non-Catholic “Bible believing” Christian can use a book compiled by Councils of the Catholic Church without acknowledging, at some level, that the Church had the Authority to deem the books of the New Testament “inspired”, and if that’s the case, when did the Church lose that authority?

The church can’t lose authority it never possessed. The church didn’t exercise authority so much as they exercised discernment. This was a long process that involved all of God’s people, not just church councils.

 

[benjohnson]

Did I understand that Lutherans are cessationinsts when it comes to the charismatic gifts?

We’re almost cessationists - we’re not fully closed as that would deny God’s Grace.

This is be best quote I can find for our position: “The church, therefore, will not reject out of hand the possibility that God may in His grace and wisdom endow some in Christendom with the same abilities and powers He gave His church in past centuries. It will take care lest it quench the Spirit by failing to expect or pray for God’s presence and power in building His church. But it will also take seriously the admonition of the apostle to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1; cf. also 1 Cor. 12:10). Above all, the church will not employ such gifts as though they were means of grace.3”

I just finished a study on the life and work of Dietrich Bonhoeffer with great joy. What a gutsy guy! I hope I am never called to make such choices, but if I am, that I will make them with the same courage.

He’s an inspiration to me when I’m feeling rather helpless.

Does Lutheran theology allow that God can give an individual a powerful revelation that is meant to be shared with the Church?

Yes… but they’ll be tested very very thoroughly. My expectation is to never see such a revelation in my lifetime. We take joy in the revelation of others as a admonition of faith, but not of grace. When I see a Catholic shrine - it’s the faith-filled people there that bring me joy. I would never ‘counter’ their claims, but I also don’t really have a need to accept their claims as we have sufficient Scripture.

Do you consider that such figures as Luther and Melanchthon were so moved, like prophets of the OT?

Ack! No! Luther and Melanchthon were just two sinners. They’re lives are of historical importance and nothing more.