Ask A Scientologist.

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Meh, you get over it after awhile ;). Yes, I still get mail from them, emails daily, and at least one phone call a day (that rings out to voicemail of course), and I left them awhile ago. It usually picks up when there’s an upcoming event, since these events are also opportunities to solicit “donations” or get people to join staff.
You are a very patient man!😃
 
What is the ultimate goal for a practitioner of Scientology? What do they expect to finally achieve?
 
What is the ultimate goal for a practitioner of Scientology? What do they expect to finally achieve?
In two words: “Total Freedom”

In slightly longer terms: The first goal is to get to the state of Clear. A Clear is a person who, “no longer has his own reactive mind.” A Clear is a person who is utterly and complete free of engrams. Hubbard, especially in Dianetics, described the state in almost super human terms, although he later backed off those claims somewhat.

The second, and more important goal, is to achieve the state of Operating Thetan (OT). An OT is a person who is, “at cause over Matter, Energy, Space, and Time.” Hubbard didn’t mince words with OT. He described them in terms nothing short of godhood.

It’s important to note with regards to OT that the final state of OT hasn’t been revealed yet. Yes, those who complete the New OT VIII process can call themselves OT, but they are technically OT only on their own First Dynamic. That is, they are at full cause over themselves but no over anyone or anything else. The successive OT levels, presumably, will deal with the higher dynamics, but nobody knows because nobody’s seen them.
 
The successive OT levels, presumably, will deal with the higher dynamics, but nobody knows because nobody’s seen them.
Will anyone ever get to see them? Has Miscavige seen them?

Isn’t there some document that was written by the chief Thetan that, if read by someone not practicing Scientology, will cause immediate death?
 
Will anyone ever get to see them?
This is another one of those technical questions that will be hard to answer…

Long and short, there was, back in the 1960’s (and today) a Scientology Org in the UK called Saint Hill Manor. It was the biggest and the best church in the whole Scientology empire. Hubbard said that the levels above OT VIII would be released only if and when every “regular” church of Scientology in the world grew to the same size as Saint Hill.

I wouldn’t hold my breath, in other words.
Has Miscavige seen them?
That’s an interesting question. I don’t know the answer to it. Presumably, he would have access to them but the only person who even claims to have seen them was the Senior C/S Int (the supervisor of all auditors on the planet, basically) back when Hubbard was still alive and he’s pretty cagy about what’s in them.
Isn’t there some document that was written by the chief Thetan that, if read by someone not practicing Scientology, will cause immediate death?
You’re talking about the confidential OT III materials. That particular thing is a bit overstated. Apparently, what Hubbard meant (and explains in some lecture or another) was that running the processes contained in the document could kill someone, if they weren’t ready for it.

I’m not going to pass judgement on them for saying that. After all, even as a protestant, I would argue that anyone who would take communion without being adequately prepared for it commits a grave sin and is risking a lot more than their physical health by doing it.

I’ve seen them, it’s pretty esoteric stuff. It’s akin to an exorcism of sorts (without going into too much detail.) I don’t think there’s anything to it, but I could easily see how a Scientologist who’s really bought into this stuff could get knocked for a pretty good loop by trying to do this stuff before they reached the point where they believed they were ready.
 
My question.
Which one of you is going to tell Tom Cruise he can’t act to save his life?
😃
 
Is all the crazy alien beliefs from that South Park episode really taught at higher levels? Is it taken literally? I’ve heard actual scientologists deny it is real doctrine, saying they’ve experienced higher level classes
 
Is all the crazy alien beliefs from that South Park episode really taught at higher levels? Is it taken literally? I’ve heard actual scientologists deny it is real doctrine, saying they’ve experienced higher level classes
Yes. The info from the South Park episode is taught at the Operating Thetan Level III, or OT III, level on the "Bridge to Total Freedom. See here for more info:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu

Yes, the Xenu story is taken literally, and Scientologists, after learning this information, will “audit” or get rid of the thetans, or spirits, of these aliens that are attached to them, causing problems. This costs tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of dollars to get to this level. Scientologists deny it because 1) they probably haven’t gotten to that level, or 2) if they did, the Operating Thetan, or OT levels on the Bridge are confidential, and they wouldn’t share what they know anyway.
 
What exactly is Auditing? Is it psychological counseling? Helping with Spiritual leveling up? Is it very personal and trying to keep you on some sort of right path?

Also where does all the money go? Does anyone track that? Does it go to the top members running this religion? Does any of it get donated to causes?
 
  1. Did you read that recent expose book, “Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood, and the Prison of Belief”
    and/or–
    Jenna Misgavige’s book (daughter of The Big Guy) “Beyond Belief: My Secret Life Inside Scientology and My Harrowing Escape”?
If so, what did you think? Were they accurate?
No but I’ve seen several interviews with both authors and find their stories credible.
  1. We read a lot about how they are always after everyone’s money (you touched upon this in an earlier post, or someone did)…do they demand a percentage of one’s paycheck or how does that work? Is it like tithing?
There’s four ways, primarily, by which Scientologists “give” to the Church.

The first, and largest sum by far, are fees paid for courses and services. Auditing services are billed out at a standard rate that is in the hundreds of dollars per hour. “Special” processing costs even more.

Even if one goes up the much cheaper co-audit route, it still costs thousands of dollars to even get your basic Class IV auditing certificate and you will still have to purchases blocks of special processing before and after doing your Grades (which gets you most of the way to Clear, but does not cover Clearing nor any of the OT levels.)

Second, most “real” Scientologists (i.e. not dudes like me who just took a couple of classes) buy a membership in the International Association of Scientologists (IAS). This entitles them to pretty significant discounts on their courses and processing. Membership comes in different levels, all the way from a pretty affordable annual membership all the way up to “Super Power Diamond Platinum President’s Lifetime Membership” (or whatever they’re calling it these days) that can cost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Third, Scientologists who are trained as Auditors will often set up shop as what are called Field Service Ministers (FSMs). In addition to being IAS members, they have to charge the same flat fee for auditing that the Church does and they have to remit a certain percentage of their auditing fees to the closest local church. In return they get a certain “commission” on any courses delivered by the local church that they recommend a person for.

Finally, for special projects, like the new “Super Power” building in Clearwater and the recent “Ideal Org” renovations at the higher profile local churches, they pass the hat and ask for donations like any other church. That having been said, the hat passing usually comes with a pretty hard sell.

They also make money hand over fist on royalties on all of Hubbards writing (including his fiction.) Hubbard gave his entire estate, including the copyrights, to the Church.
  1. Who is Xenu? What’s the whole alien connection?
Ah… this question. Without getting into the confidential material contained in OT III (which is where all of the really important Xenu stuff is), Xenu was basically a dictator of a Galactic Confederation that ruled this earth millions of years ago. Scientologists believe that Xenu took billions upon billions of souls, shipped them to earth and then nuked and brainwashed them. This Incident is one of the primary sources of aberration on the “whole track” (i.e. your entire existence including your past lives.)

A lot’s been made about it but you really only hear about it on OT III, from what I’ve been given to understand, and it’s really seen, even by advanced Scientologists as kind of a minor thing.
  1. Can you get in trouble for telling us all of this? (Someone’s not going to hunt you down or something…?)
Well… like I said, I’m careful not to directly reveal anything that they would consider confidential and, honestly, they aren’t, in my experience, as bad as you might think they are. They will definitely go after people, but they usually only go after people who go directly after them, and I’m not interested in doing that.

I want to treat Scientology charitably. I think they believe a lot of wacky things, but, let’s be honest, so do we. It just so happens that our wackiness is true. I don’t think they’re evil. I think they’re, by and large, honest, upstanding, moral people who are in grave theological error, but they’re not “OB THE DEBIL!!!”
 
Is all the crazy alien beliefs from that South Park episode really taught at higher levels? Is it taken literally? I’ve heard actual scientologists deny it is real doctrine, saying they’ve experienced higher level classes
That is absolutely the background material for the OT III level.

You have to remember two things though:

First, the basic outline of the Xenu story can be found in non-confidential materials. It’s one of the lecture tape series. It’s not exactly like they’re hiding Xenu from anybody. What they object to is the publishing of the actual OT III course pack, the contents of which they consider to be dangerous to the uninitiated.

Second, Very few Scientologists ever get to OT III. Those that do tend to be well-heeled “true believer” types. A few of those have “blown” over the years and that’s where we get this information from, but those people, once they leave Scientology usually have a great big axe to grind. You have to take everything that anyone on any side of the Scientology issue (including me) says with a big grain of salt.

The information is out there. You can find it easily. For my own sake and the sake of the board, though, I won’t post any links or give you any more specific direction than that.
 
What exactly is Auditing? Is it psychological counseling? Helping with Spiritual leveling up? Is it very personal and trying to keep you on some sort of right path?
Auditing is at once, very complex and very simple.

What I mean by that is that the basic process is really pretty straightforward, although it does come in two distinct flavors: Dianetics and Scientology Auditing.

Dianetics (called “Book One” Dianetics by Scientologists) is really simple: You have an Auditor and a Pre-clear. The Auditor, after some initial set up, asks the Pre-clear to recall an event and then the Pre-clear verbally talks his way through it, paying particular attention to all of his senses (called “Perceptics” in Scientology and there’s way more than five of them) as he relives the scene of this past trauma over and over and over again until they don’t feel so bad about it any more. You then go to an earlier similar event and then an earlier similar event and so on until you find the root trauma (called the “Basic” in Dianetics) and then that person is “cured” of that particular problem.

Scientology Auditing works pretty much the same way with two major differences: First, they use the E-Meter. Now, a lot has been said about the E-Meter, and about half of it is true. The straight dope on the E-Meter is this: It’s a skin galvanometer. That’s all it is. It measures the electrical resistance across your body. Hubbard’s view was that thoughts, especially engrams, are energy and, thus, have literal mass that can be measured using an E-Meter. Yeah… I know… it sounds whack-a-doo, but remember, galvanic skin response is one of the primary components of polygraphy and I have seen ex-Scientologists demonstrate an E-Meter with shocking levels of insight into the emotional responses of whoever is hooked up to them… even when they can’t see the person and can’t hear the person, they can tell you when something they just said triggered an emotional response.

The second major difference between Scientology Auditing and Dianetics is that Scientology has a specific program, starting with the Grades and proceeding up through Clear and the OT levels, of what to Audit. In Dianetics, you just talk about what’s bothering you. In Scientology Auditing, you are being directed to deal with specific issues in a specific order. There are literally thousands of these processes, but the basic outline is this: Recall (i.e. memory), Communications, Problems, Overts and withholds (i.e. Scientology Ethics), Fixation (on past upsets), Abilities, and then New Era Dianetics (which covers a whole host of issues that can range all the way into past lives, if that’s what it takes.) Usually, at that point, you go Clear. If you don’t theres more processing to get you there and then on to the OT levels.
Also where does all the money go? Does anyone track that? Does it go to the top members running this religion? Does any of it get donated to causes?
“Byzantine” doesn’t even begin to describe the complex network of Scientology organizations and finances. Basically, the money flows upwards from individuals to whatever org they are receiving services at to the over arching organizations that control Scientology at the top. It all stays in Scientology. Even their “charitable” efforts are really just money transfers from one Scientology org to another Scientology org that will direct people back to the main org. Their anti-drug “charity” Narconon (not to be confused with Narcanon, which is a 12-step program), channels people back to the main org for the Purification Rundown, and so on. About the only truly “charitable” organization they have is the Citizens Commission on Human Rights and that’s really all about black-PR against legitimate psychiatry and psychology, which in turn drives more people to the Org.

As to what happens to it all: They spend it. They build building hand over fist, even though they’re having trouble filling them. They constantly renovate the buildings they have to make them ever more ostentatious. Frankly, most of them look like they were decorated by Liberace or a Parisian Madame. They do have some staff, but they are ridiculously under paid, even those who are civilians and are not in the “religious order” within Scientology called SeaOrg.

They also spend a lot of money on a base near Trementina, New Mexico where in they are recording every single word of LRH’s writings, lectures, films, et al. on stainless steel sheets, rolled up and stored in indexed titanium steel capsules flooded with inert gas and stored in geologically stable underground caverns so that, if and when we annihilate ourselves as a species, the returning souls of SeaOrg members in the distant future will know where to find them. I’m not kidding on that, either. That’s the whole idea.
 
LOL.
Okay, ya gotta admit…Tom has a charm. He 'aint no Oliver, but…put him in a Jerry MaGuire or an action film (and he was really good in Far and Away) and he’s got the goods.
In the old days it called “overacting”. Nowadays they give people academy awards for doing what would have generated unintentional humor years ago. 😃
 
Scientology Auditing works pretty much the same way with two major differences: First, they use the E-Meter. Now, a lot has been said about the E-Meter, and about half of it is true. The straight dope on the E-Meter is this: It’s a skin galvanometer. That’s all it is. It measures the electrical resistance across your body. Hubbard’s view was that thoughts, especially engrams, are energy and, thus, have literal mass that can be measured using an E-Meter. Yeah… I know… it sounds whack-a-doo, but remember, galvanic skin response is one of the primary components of polygraphy and I have seen ex-Scientologists demonstrate an E-Meter with shocking levels of insight into the emotional responses of whoever is hooked up to them… even when they can’t see the person and can’t hear the person, they can tell you when something they just said triggered an emotional response.

The second major difference between Scientology Auditing and Dianetics is that Scientology has a specific program, starting with the Grades and proceeding up through Clear and the OT levels, of what to Audit. In Dianetics, you just talk about what’s bothering you. In Scientology Auditing, you are being directed to deal with specific issues in a specific order. There are literally thousands of these processes, but the basic outline is this: Recall (i.e. memory), Communications, Problems, Overts and withholds (i.e. Scientology Ethics), Fixation (on past upsets), Abilities, and then New Era Dianetics (which covers a whole host of issues that can range all the way into past lives, if that’s what it takes.) Usually, at that point, you go Clear. If you don’t theres more processing to get you there and then on to the OT levels.
You can also experience Scientology Auditing through the"Life Repair" introductory service, which is one of the things I did. “Introductory” means that you get the special introductory price ($700 per 12.5 hour intensive, and you need to purchase at least 2 of those intensives, and you could need more, depending on your evaluation/test results), instead of the absurdly expensive regular price (this is why the HGC, or Hubbard Guidance Center, where the “professional auditing”, or auditing given by a trained staff auditor, is given, was usually almost empty when I was there. People instead co-audit the services, where they learn the theory of auditing (you still have to pay for the training, but it’s less), then pair up with another student and do the services on each other).

Anyway, Life Repair didn’t demonstrate to me that Scientology “worked”, at all. Yes, the E-meter has something to it, since it’s basically a lie detector, since it works on the same principles. However, there are so many other factors that could affect how the meter “reads”, that I didn’t think auditing was any sort of “spiritual counseling” (and many ex-Scientologists recount similar experiences with the other levels of auditing). For example, the meter would “read”, even when I wasn’t thinking of anything, nor did a “mental image picture” “come up”. But because the meter read, there must be something there, even though I said there wasn’t. So, the E-meter became God, essentially, as it never lies and is always right, despite your own assessment. So, you end up making things up and just talking through it, which ends up allowing the needle on the meter to “float” (or go back and forth slowly, indicating that nothing is being stimulated in your mind, as it were).

This is also how you get through the check at the end of an auditing session. After you’re done with an auditing session, you go to the “Examiner”, where you again hold onto the cans of the E-meter, and they make sure your needle is floating, meaning nothing is being stimulated in your mind, as mentioned. On more than one occasion, I was not told that my needle was floating, waited in the waiting area, only to be called in and being told, essentially “JK, JK (just kidding), we looked at the tape (wait, they were filming this?!), and your needle did float”. On another occasion, I had to go back into an auditing session to see what was being stimulated. Again, I just made stuff up. This is very common, as I see other ex-Scientologists discuss (especially when you end up discovering “past lives”, because the auditor keeps asking if there’s an “early, similar” incident to affected you, and you can’t recall anything, and nothing “comes up”.

Oh and don’t get me started on discovering whether you are PTS (Potential Trouble Source) because of your connection with an SP (Suppressive Person). That was a joke. As were the “rudiments” at the beginning of every auditing session, done to see if there’s anything in your life at that moment that could prevent you from having a successful auditing session (like a “present time problem”, a “withhold” (basically a “sin” that you are keeping to yourself, etc). Lots of time wasted on that. :whacky:
 
I want to treat Scientology charitably. I think they believe a lot of wacky things, but, let’s be honest, so do we. It just so happens that our wackiness is true. I don’t think they’re evil. I think they’re, by and large, honest, upstanding, moral people who are in grave theological error, but they’re not “OB THE DEBIL!!!”
There’s wacky, and then there’s wacky. There quite simply is no comparison between Christianity and Scientology. The Xenu story isn’t it. Have you read the Basic book Scientology: A History of Man? It doesn’t make any sense, and is very science fiction. I was told that you have to read the Basics books (I was coerced into buying all of them) in order for it to make sense. That didn’t help, and the books prior to HoM don’t really address the things being discussed in it.

In my opinion, I really think that if you had a more extensive experience with Scientology, you’d view it differently. Now, I have nothing against individual Scientologists. Many of them were very nice, and at my Org, most were around my age, in their 20s-30s, which was cool. I do miss some of them (but obviously I’ll remain out of communication with them). However, the system of Scientology quite simply is a cult. I don’t use that word lightly (I was a Latter-day Saint (Mormon), and while that word is used by critics against the LDS Church, after my experience with Scientology, I don’t think it is a valid assessment of Mormonism). Scientology wants you to be there ALL the time. Nothing else is as important, as I was told many times. I was told that Scientology was more important than a grad school admissions test I was studying for. You should be auditing or on course every day, as that’s how you get the most “wins”. You should join staff, since that’s the only way to really help humanity (even after I told them I couldn’t, I still was being coerced into joining). You need to join the IAS, because they’re the only organization in the world really helping humanity. You need to buy all the materials (which cost thousands of dollars). As I mentioned in the other thread, I was “regged” for the Basics Books and Lectures package for over an hour, after I repeatedly stated that I didn’t have enough money for that. He read quote after quote of L Ron Hubbard on money, how it’s nothing, etc. Finally, I compromised and said I’d just get the Books. You need to attend the events, because they’ll be super amazing and fabulous. When you get there, you find out they’re either recruiting for staff at the end, or they’ll ask for donations to the IAS. Every event is like that. I had so many other experiences that showed why Scientology is a scam. As others have discovered and stated, Scientology really is all about money and your time.

The philosophy itself, while it may seem helpful at the beginning levels (most of us find it that way, with the intro seminars and Life Improvement Courses), that quickly goes away into things that really aren’t helpful. Then it starts getting into past lives, that we are eternal spiritual beings that have lived before and will live again, that it is the only way to spiritual freedom, and we see that it really isn’t compatible with Christianity (despite it claiming to be compatible with all religions).
 
I want to treat Scientology charitably. I think they believe a lot of wacky things, but, let’s be honest, so do we. It just so happens that our wackiness is true. I don’t think they’re evil. I think they’re, by and large, honest, upstanding, moral people who are in grave theological error, but they’re not “OB THE DEBIL!!!”
They are of the Devil. Google “Operation Snow White”. Read the accounts at exscientologykids.com. Learn what happened to Lisa McPherson, Kyle Brennan, and Jeremy Perkins. Read about the man who founded this cult - L. Rom Hubbard - and his lies.

Scientology is dangerous.
 
They are of the Devil. Google “Operation Snow White”. Read the accounts at exscientologykids.com. Learn what happened to Lisa McPherson, Kyle Brennan, and Jeremy Perkins. Read about the man who founded this cult - L. Rom Hubbard - and his lies.

Scientology is dangerous.
The interesting thing is that before you start auditing, you have to sign multiple forms/contracts, including one that apparently added the “Lisa clause” after the death of Lisa McPherson:
**
“The Scientology religion teaches that the spirit can be saved and that the spirit alone may save or heal the body, and the Introspection Rundown is intended to save the spirit. I understand that the Introspection Rundown is an intensive, rigorous Religious Service that includes being isolated from all sources of potential spiritual upset, including but not limited to family members, friends or others with whom I might normally interact. As part of the Introspection Rundown, I specifically consent to Church members being with me 24 hours a day at the direction of my Case Supervisor, in accordance with the tenets and custom of the Scientology religion. The Case Supervisor will determine the time period in which I will remain isolated, according to the beliefs and practices of the Scientology religion. I further specifically acknowledge that the duration of any such isolation is uncertain, determined only by my spiritual condition, but that such duration will be completely at the discretion of the Case Supervisor. I also specifically consent to the presence of Church members around the clock for whatever length of time is necessary to perform the Introspection Rundown’s processes and to achieve the spiritual results of the Introspection Rundown. I understand, acknowledge and agree that the Introspection Rundown addresses only the individual’s spiritual needs and I freely consent, without reservation, and without condition or limitation, to Church members conducting the Introspection Rundown, and that I accept and assume all known and unknown risks of injury, loss, or damage resulting from my decision to participate in the Introspection Rundown and specifically absolve all persons and entities from all liabilities of any kind, without limitation, associated with my participation or their participation in my Introspection Rundown.”**
cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Scientology/ReleaseForms/Introspection.html

I remember that when I signed these forms, the Registrar specifically pointed out the Introspection Rundown portion, briefly talked about what it involves (basically just said what is said above) and he said that this has never been done before in Scientology, and he highly doubted that I’d need that. Since he was raised in Scientology, sadly I don’t think he’s aware of the Lisa McPherson story. 😦
 
Ok so these Body Thetans, the souls of things that are attached to us, which we are trying to remove from our own body/souls… does anyone care about them? Aren’t they being negatively affected by being stuck with us too? Does Scientology have a plan to free them so they can go live their own healthy spiritual lives, or are we just focused on the human souls within this belief system?
 
Scientology, to me at least, seems like a scam. All I here is money, and large amounts of it, for these “auditing” sessions and what-not. It just a huge money grabbing corporation disguised as a so called church.
 
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