Ask a Unitarian Universalist

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It depends on what you mean by math. Some people extend the definition of math to include any form of logical reasoning. And I believe that it is a defined doctrine of the RCC that the existence of God may be known by reason alone.
True. The CC does profess that the existence of God can be known by reason alone.

But it appears that you are appealing to one definition of math for your premise (math/physics) and then invoking the other definition of math (logical reasoning) for your conclusion.
 
At great risk of belaboring this further…… the only way that I can understand your explanation of Ignatius here is if you’re defining words differently from me. Isn’t claiming that something is “black”, when it appears “white”, an untrue statement?
No. It is a true statement.

Something can appear white and clean when it is really black and soiled.

For example, the fruit in the Garden of Eden.
Another example: divorce and re-marriage.

We need the Church to tell us their true colors, because we see with blurred lenses.
 
In fact, I have read that in some dioceses, Catholics were prohibited from reading the Bible.
If you could proffer some sort of documentation from the Church that stated that Catholics were forbidden from reading the Bible, that would be helpful here.

Otherwise, what you are stating is akin to my saying, “I have read that in some Protestant churches, their members were prohibited from praying with women. Women were banned from churches and kept in the kitchen cooking their 3 bean salads for the luncheon after the services.”
In the Reformation, literacy was encouraged so that people could read the Bible themselves and verify the Word of God.
Except that the only way they could verify the Word of God was if they gave tacit submission to the authority of the Catholic Church to tell them what was the Word of God.

Oh, the irony!!
This emphasis on literacy for Bible reading was characteristic of American society, especially in the 19th century.
I am certain that many an American Protestant learned to read by reading the Bible.

It’s an interesting concept, but until you proffer a magisterial teaching that forbade Catholics from reading the Bible, the comment above is simply an interesting nugget.
 
True. The CC does profess that the existence of God can be known by reason alone.

But it appears that you are appealing to one definition of math for your premise (math/physics) and then invoking the other definition of math (logical reasoning) for your conclusion.
Some people believe that logical reasoning is part of math. As you know, Bertrand Russell and A. N.Whitehead started the 3 vol. book Principia mathematica with the intention of showing that all of mathematics could be derived logically from a few axiomatic principles. However, in 1931, Gödel’s incompleteness theorem showed that they would not be able to do this.
 
Some people believe that logical reasoning is part of math.
Yep. Anyone who believes that logical reasoning isn’t part of math is, well, illogical.
As you know, Bertrand Russell and A. N.Whitehead started the 3 vol. book Principia mathematica with the intention of showing that all of mathematics could be derived logically from a few axiomatic principles. However, in 1931, Gödel’s incompleteness theorem showed that they would not be able to do this.
Ok.
 
In #296 did you mention simultaneous existence? If two things exist simultaneously, would that not mean that they exist at the same time? Or does it mean something else?
Yes. Yes.

I mentioned simple existence of particles, this is not dependant on time. You mentioned an observational and relativistic effect. The relativistic effect is clearly dependant on time. The observational effect, while not directly dependant on time supports my wave understanding by postulating very wavelike behavior when not under observation.
 
Well, nmgauss, with Protestants you need the Catholic Church to tell you the Word of God.

You would not know it any other way, right?
PRmerger;10993711:
PR Merger – regarding the Catholic position, how would you respond to accusations of circularity, in the reasoning:

We know that the Bible is the Word of God because the authority of the Church has declared it so

but

We know that the Church has authority in Jesus’ name because the Bible – which is the Word of God – has declared it so

I’ve heard both arguments from Catholics – not necessarily at the same time! The latter argument invariably invokes the Gospel of Matthew (“you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church…”)
 
PRmerger;10993711:
Well, nmgauss, with Protestants you need the Catholic Church to tell you the Word of God.

You would not know it any other way, right?
PRmerger;10993711:
PR Merger – regarding the Catholic position, how would you respond to accusations of circularity, in the reasoning:

We know that the Bible is the Word of God because the authority of the Church has declared it so

but

We know that the Church has authority in Jesus’ name because the Bible – which is the Word of God – has declared it so

I’ve heard both arguments from Catholics – not necessarily at the same time! The latter argument invariably invokes the Gospel of Matthew (“you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church…”)
This shouldn’t be an argument for authority unless one already accepts one form of authority. If one already accepts the Bible as an authority, then you can use the Bible to show the Church’s authority. If you already believe in the authority of the Church, then you can show the authority of the Bible. But if one accepts none, then it would be circular reasoning and should be avoided. I believe in the Church’s authority because looking at history, we see the succession back to the time of Jesus and his Apostles.
 
Well, nmgauss, with Protestants you need the Catholic Church to tell you the Word of God.

You would not know it any other way, right?

IOW: how do you know that the book of Hebrews is the inspired word of God but the Epistle of Barnabas is not?

Because the CC told you Hebrews is inspired and that the Epistle of Barnabas is not.
The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has the following on their website:

Once the printing press was invented, the most commonly printed book was the Bible, but this still did not make Bible-reading a Catholic’s common practice. Up until the mid-twentieth Century, the custom of reading the Bible and interpreting it for oneself was a hallmark of the Protestant churches springing up in Europe after the Reformation. Protestants rejected the authority of the Pope and of the Church and showed it by saying people could read and interpret the Bible for themselves. **Catholics meanwhile were discouraged from reading Scripture. **

Identifying the reading and interpreting of the Bible as “Protestant” even affected the study of Scripture. Until the twentieth Century, it was only Protestants who actively embraced Scripture study. That changed after 1943 when Pope Pius XII issued the encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu. **This not only allowed Catholics to study Scripture, it encouraged them to do so. ** And with Catholics studying Scripture and teaching other Catholics about what they were studying, familiarity with Scripture grew.
Scripture awareness grew after the Second Vatican Council. Mass was celebrated in the vernacular and so the Scripture readings at Mass were read entirely in English. Adult faith formation programs began to develop, and the most common program run at a parish focused on Scripture study. The Charismatic movement and the rise of prayer groups exposed Catholics to Scripture even more. All of this contributed to Catholics becoming more familiar with the Bible and more interested in reading the Scriptures and praying with them.

usccb.org/bible/understanding-the-bible/study-materials/articles/changes-in-catholic-attitudes-toward-bible-readings.cfm
 
PRmerger;10993711:
Well, nmgauss, with Protestants you need the Catholic Church to tell you the Word of God.

You would not know it any other way, right?
PR Merger – regarding the Catholic position, how would you respond to accusations of circularity, in the reasoning:

We know that the Bible is the Word of God because the authority of the Church has declared it so

but

We know that the Church has authority in Jesus’ name because the Bible – which is the Word of God – has declared it so

I’ve heard both arguments from Catholics – not necessarily at the same time! The latter argument invariably invokes the Gospel of Matthew (“you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church…”)
It is not at all circular reasoning because the Church had the authority and exercised this authority before we had a Bible. We do not glean our doctrines nor authority from the Bible. The Bible is a supporting document. It was compiled to use in our liturgies.

You cannot avoid the fact that the Holy Spirit inspired those who wrote the sacred texts that make up our Bible and likewise inspired and guided those Catholic bishops who discerned what was inspired from what was not. Over 400 texts were considered, and only 27 of them made the cut, as far as the New Testament is concerned. You absolutely depend upon the Holy Spirit guiding the Catholic Church in order take the position that you have the inspired word of God. There is no other way that you know.
 
The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has the following on their website:

Once the printing press was invented, the most commonly printed book was the Bible, but this still did not make Bible-reading a Catholic’s common practice. Up until the mid-twentieth Century, the custom of reading the Bible and interpreting it for oneself was a hallmark of the Protestant churches springing up in Europe after the Reformation. Protestants rejected the authority of the Pope and of the Church and showed it by saying people could read and interpret the Bible for themselves. **Catholics meanwhile were discouraged from reading Scripture. **

Identifying the reading and interpreting of the Bible as “Protestant” even affected the study of Scripture. Until the twentieth Century, it was only Protestants who actively embraced Scripture study. That changed after 1943 when Pope Pius XII issued the encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu. **This not only allowed Catholics to study Scripture, it encouraged them to do so. ** And with Catholics studying Scripture and teaching other Catholics about what they were studying, familiarity with Scripture grew.
Scripture awareness grew after the Second Vatican Council. Mass was celebrated in the vernacular and so the Scripture readings at Mass were read entirely in English. Adult faith formation programs began to develop, and the most common program run at a parish focused on Scripture study. The Charismatic movement and the rise of prayer groups exposed Catholics to Scripture even more. All of this contributed to Catholics becoming more familiar with the Bible and more interested in reading the Scriptures and praying with them.

usccb.org/bible/understanding-the-bible/study-materials/articles/changes-in-catholic-attitudes-toward-bible-readings.cfm
That says discouraged, not forbidden or prohibited. I can understand this because the laity were not scholars and could misinterpret the Bible to their own destruction (as can be seen lived out by the thousands of denominations of Christianity today). If something so important could be misinterpreted, I would limit the availability of it to those who were not trained to interpret it correctly also. You can’t just give a carpenter or blacksmith a high level science text book and expect them to be able to build a highly efficient hydrogen fuel cell. They need to have the proper education.
 
That says discouraged, not forbidden or prohibited. I can understand this because the laity were not scholars and could misinterpret the Bible to their own destruction (as can be seen lived out by the thousands of denominations of Christianity today). If something so important could be misinterpreted, I would limit the availability of it to those who were not trained to interpret it correctly also. You can’t just give a carpenter or blacksmith a high level science text book and expect them to be able to build a highly efficient hydrogen fuel cell. They need to have the proper education.
I know you are not saying this, but I read from this that Christianity is only for those of scholarly aptitude. With no offense to people or he who is, I wonder if a new law book would have been helpful in the NT similar to Torah, but with the no longer needed bits clearly edited out.

Also, as I do not remember what thread this is without looking, I feel compelled to apologize to the OP for what may well be a hijacking.
 
I know you are not saying this, but I read from this that Christianity is only for those of scholarly aptitude. With no offense to people or he who is, I wonder if a new law book would have been helpful in the NT similar to Torah, but with the no longer needed bits clearly edited out.

Also, as I do not remember what thread this is without looking, I feel compelled to apologize to the OP for what may well be a hijacking.
No, I’m saying that theology is not for the ignorant. Christianity is for all. You must learn before you can teach, so to speak. The Bible does not make Christianity, the Bible is a product of Christianity and should be respected as such.
 
I know you are not saying this, but I read from this that Christianity is only for those of scholarly aptitude. With no offense to people or he who is, I wonder if a new law book would have been helpful in the NT similar to Torah, but with the no longer needed bits clearly edited out.

Also, as I do not remember what thread this is without looking, I feel compelled to apologize to the OP for what may well be a hijacking.
Before literacy was common, religious leaders had to make things simple for the masses. The Bible is a difficult series of books. The Quran is also difficult reading. Both in Catholicism and Islam, intellectuals embraced abstract concepts that they though were beyond the common person. In Islam, a certain philosophical approach was embraced by intellectuals, but a different more basic approach was taught as exemplified by the Sufi’s. In the latter, getting close to God emotionally seemed to appeal to the masses.

The same sort of idea was promoted among Catholic priests. If they could read scripture in Latin and then interpret it for their parishioners, they were able to achieve something that was difficult otherwise.
 
Before literacy was common, religious leaders had to make things simple for the masses. The Bible is a difficult series of books. The Quran is also difficult reading. Both in Catholicism and Islam, intellectuals embraced abstract concepts that they though were beyond the common person. In Islam, a certain philosophical approach was embraced by intellectuals, but a different more basic approach was taught as exemplified by the Sufi’s. In the latter, getting close to God emotionally seemed to appeal to the masses.

The same sort of idea was promoted among Catholic priests. If they could read scripture in Latin and then interpret it for their parishioners, they were able to achieve something that was difficult otherwise.
Interesting, or, spoken language was more important when literacy was scarce. Thus one’s word carried much more weight then, than as we know, now everyone lies to get ahead, but only the real dense put their lies into writing, say in fibbing a resume.

I actually find world history of early Christianity to be quite different than abstact or complicated. The letters in the Bible’s NT weren’t written to “those who can read this letter” they were written to a whole people regardless of ability to read.

The teachings themselves from Jesus himself are straightforward and clear. It’s the person who chooses to make them complicated.
 
The teachings themselves from Jesus himself are straightforward and clear. It’s the person who chooses to make them complicated.
True. See the Summa Theologica for a great example of that. or the CCC, in my opinion. Or all the papal bulls and encyclicals. And reams of counciliar documents.
 
PR Merger – regarding the Catholic position, how would you respond to accusations of circularity, in the reasoning:

We know that the Bible is the Word of God because the authority of the Church has declared it so

but

We know that the Church has authority in Jesus’ name because the Bible – which is the Word of God – has declared it so

I’ve heard both arguments from Catholics – not necessarily at the same time! The latter argument invariably invokes the Gospel of Matthew (“you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church…”)
Not circular. The argument regarding the the inspiration of the Bible is a spiral one, rather than a circular one.

For the argument above to be circular, you would have to start with a premise, and end with the same premise.

It would look something like this: The Bible is inspired. The Bible says that the Church is infallible. The Church says the Bible is inspired.

OR: The Church is infallible. The Church discerned the canon of Scripture. The Scriptures say that the Church is infallible.

That’s circular.

The spiral argument is this:

On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history.

From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded.

And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired.

This is not a circular argument because the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired) is not simply a restatement of its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable), and its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable) is in no way based on the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired). What we have demonstrated is that without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired." source
 
The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has the following on their website:

Once the printing press was invented, the most commonly printed book was the Bible, but this still did not make Bible-reading a Catholic’s common practice. Up until the mid-twentieth Century, the custom of reading the Bible and interpreting it for oneself was a hallmark of the Protestant churches springing up in Europe after the Reformation. Protestants rejected the authority of the Pope and of the Church and showed it by saying people could read and interpret the Bible for themselves. **Catholics meanwhile were discouraged from reading Scripture. **

Identifying the reading and interpreting of the Bible as “Protestant” even affected the study of Scripture. Until the twentieth Century, it was only Protestants who actively embraced Scripture study. That changed after 1943 when Pope Pius XII issued the encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu. **This not only allowed Catholics to study Scripture, it encouraged them to do so. ** And with Catholics studying Scripture and teaching other Catholics about what they were studying, familiarity with Scripture grew.
Scripture awareness grew after the Second Vatican Council. Mass was celebrated in the vernacular and so the Scripture readings at Mass were read entirely in English. Adult faith formation programs began to develop, and the most common program run at a parish focused on Scripture study. The Charismatic movement and the rise of prayer groups exposed Catholics to Scripture even more. All of this contributed to Catholics becoming more familiar with the Bible and more interested in reading the Scriptures and praying with them.

usccb.org/bible/understanding-the-bible/study-materials/articles/changes-in-catholic-attitudes-toward-bible-readings.cfm
It seems that you are moving goalposts now.

You original statement was that Catholics were prohibited from reading the Bible.

These are your words, emphasis mine:
In fact, I have read that in some dioceses, Catholics were prohibited from reading the Bible.
Discouraged and prohibited are as different concepts as dieting and starvation are different concepts.
 
Not circular. The argument regarding the the inspiration of the Bible is a spiral one, rather than a circular one.
I agree that this is a spiral argument, not a circular one!

I still don’t think it is without shortcomings, which I’ll outline below.

Also, I believe that the Protestant can utilize some of this spiral, no less than the Catholic, even though the Protestant’s version of it will have even more shortcomings than I believe the Catholic version has.
the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history.
Let’s say that a historian agreed that, generally speaking, the Bible is reliable as a historical document. The first shortcoming I see is that historical reliability can never be measured in terms of “100% reliable.” Any of the following things can come into play:

—a fault of memory
–confusion on the part of the author relating the story (getting his facts mixed up); or, in fact, a failure to fully grasp the concepts
–a “filling in the gaps” of specific details that the author may not recollect with exactitude, for the sake of not creating a “patchy” story

And that doesn’t even cover the possibility of deliberate fictions, though – for the sake of the argument – I’m assuming that there were none. That still leaves human error, which no argument for historical reliability – in a scientific sense – would ever deny is possible. Even Caesar’s book on the campaigns in Gaul – written in his own hand – can contain historical inaccuracies; dates mixed up; conversations partially fictionalized, in order to fill gaps in memory.

So my first argument is that “arguing for the historical reliability of the Bible”, just as arguing for the historical reliability of anything, is not a case of 100.0% accuracy, but rather “mostly” accurate or “probably most accurate.” Using due caution, that could be anything from about 60 to 70% accurate, to 90%, 95%, or 98% accurate. But 100.0% accurate, though theoretically possible, is not particularly likely; it can’t be assumed, whether it be for the Bible, or Rousseau’s Confessions (the story of his life), or an account of Caesar’s campaigns in Gaul.
that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded.
This is not a slam dunk, either. Let’s take that line in Matthew – “you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of heaven will not prevail against it.” If we agree that the Bible is “generally reliable, historically” we still do not know with 100% certainty that this particular line was actually spoken by Christ. It could very well have been, but it would be more certain if this line appeared in all 4 gospels, or 3 of the 4, or even 2 of them. As it is, it only appears in one. There is an element of subjective judgment in determining – from a purely historical perspective – whether these words were spoken.
Further, there is an element of subjectivity in interpreting what he meant by those words (enter the Protestants 😉 ). Remember, at this point, an infallible Church has not yet been agreed upon; it hinges upon the interpretation of this sentence, and others. Therefore, there is still “room” for differences in interpretation; no one party can yet set itself up as an authority, and claim that it is vindicated. Whether it is vindicated depends on one’s interpretation of the text, even if both parties agree that it is a reliable historical document.

But if you could prove that the Bible is 100% historically reliable (but I’m not even sure the New York Times even achieves that, in printing a full page of obituaries! ;-); we’ve all seen the “editorial corrections” that appear in the next issue, and I’m sure they don’t always catch them) and if you could prove that the only reasonable way to interpret the Biblical text is in inferring an infallible Church, and – furthermore – inferring that it is the infallible Church of Rome, then you could indeed now turn around and say, “by the way, the Bible is inspired by God.”

The problem I see is that, without already claiming the Bible to be inerrant, I don’t think it would be “reasonable” to stake a claim to 100.0% historical accuracy, assuming 0.0% factual errors or distortions. An infallible Church can determine that; but the problem is, “historical Biblical inerrancy” cannot reasonably be inferred from the more general term “historical reliability.”

Where I think Protestants can use the spiral argument is that they can seize upon the fact that it doesn’t take the church to argue for the historical reliability of the gospels. They can do that independently of the authority of any Church. Further, all they have to do then is interpret that line about “Peter and the rock” differently than the Catholics do.

Where I think their spiral runs into difficulties is in finding anywhere in the Bible that says that the text is inspired. There is nothing in the text that ever explicitly states this but, then again, neither is there is anything in the text that explicitly states that the Bible is factually inerrant which, again, is a leap from ordinary standards of historical reliability.
 
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