Ask a Unitarian Universalist

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PRmerger said:
That’s why we don’t just take things out of context.

The context tells us why in that particular time reading of that particular Bible was forbidden: because it contained heretical mistranslations.
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The argument is not convincing if we do not know what those passages were. They could be very trivial. I do know that the burned Tyndale at the stake, and yet he was a very scholarly gentlemen, well versed in several different languages. Here is a passage from the Douay Rheims Challoner (officially approved by the Catholic Church) version of the Bible and Tyndale’s translation:
Ephesians (3:6–12
Catholic version:
“That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs and of the same body: and copartners of his promise in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, of which I am made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God, which is given to me according to the operation of his power. To me, the least of all the saints, is given this grace, to preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ: and to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God who created all things: that the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church, according to the eternal purpose which he made in Christ Jesus our Lord: in whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”
Tyndale version
“That the gentiles should be inheritors also, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise that is in Christ, by the means of the gospel, whereof I am made a minister, by the gift of the grace of God given unto me, through the working of his power. Unto me the least of all saints is this grace given, that I should preach among the gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what the fellowship of the mystery is which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God which made all things through Jesus Christ, to the intent, that now unto the rulers and powers in heaven might be known by the congregation the manifold wisdom of God, according to that eternal purpose, which he purposed in Christ Jesu our Lord, by whom we are bold to draw near in that trust, which we have by faith on him.”
We notice that Tyndale used the word congregation instead of church, but this seems like a poor reason to burn a man at the stake.
 
nmgauss said:
If one’s religion is non-Christian, then Christ is irrelevant.

If one’s religion does not recognize the God of Abraham, then the inspired Word of God is irrelevant.
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The fact that one chooses not to believe in Jesus Christ does not make Christ irrelevant nor does it make his word irrelevant. He remains who He is regardless of one’s belief.
nmgauss said:
If sacraments are part of an organized church ceremonies, then I agree it is almost impossible to take part in them if you do not participate in the services.
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nmgauss said:
I agree that the hypocrisy element is more difficult to spot when one is part of the organization.
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I think PR said that hypocrisy is easier to spot in an organized religion, not more difficult. The reason for this is that an organized religion states publicly what it holds to be true. When one violates what is held to be true they stand out, much like well known Catholic politicians who make public policy in contradiction to the teaching of their Church.

How can we possibly know if one is a hypocrite when we have no idea what they believe?
 
nmgauss said:
If one’s religion is non-Christian, then Christ is irrelevant.

If one’s religion does not recognize the God of Abraham, then the inspired Word of God is irrelevant.

If sacraments are part of an organized church ceremonies, then I agree it is almost impossible to take part in them if you do not participate in the services.
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Well, I gave you the Catholic answer as to what are the pros of organized religion. You are, after all, on the Catholic Answers Forum. I would assume that you would have expected a Catholic answer?

If you wanted the non-Christian answer, I guess you can pose that question on another forum.

🤷
 
Tomdstone said:
The argument is not convincing if we do not know what those passages were. They could be very trivial.
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That’s merely speculation on your part. We simply don’t know, you and I, do we?
I do know that the burned Tyndale at the stake, and yet he was a very scholarly gentlemen, well versed in several different languages. Here is a passage from the Douay Rheims Challoner (officially approved by the Catholic Church) version of the Bible and Tyndale’s translation:
Ephesians (3:6–12
Catholic version:
“That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs and of the same body: and copartners of his promise in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, of which I am made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God, which is given to me according to the operation of his power. To me, the least of all the saints, is given this grace, to preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ: and to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God who created all things: that the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church, according to the eternal purpose which he made in Christ Jesus our Lord: in whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”
Tyndale version
“That the gentiles should be inheritors also, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise that is in Christ, by the means of the gospel, whereof I am made a minister, by the gift of the grace of God given unto me, through the working of his power. Unto me the least of all saints is this grace given, that I should preach among the gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what the fellowship of the mystery is which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God which made all things through Jesus Christ, to the intent, that now unto the rulers and powers in heaven might be known by the congregation the manifold wisdom of God, according to that eternal purpose, which he purposed in Christ Jesu our Lord, by whom we are bold to draw near in that trust, which we have by faith on him.”
We notice that Tyndale used the word congregation instead of church, but this seems like a poor reason to burn a man at the stake.
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It does indeed seem to be a poor reason to burn a man at the stake. :sad_yes:

It’s pretty likely there was more to it than that.
 
PRmerger said:
I said the exact opposite of what you are agreeing to, nmgauss.
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Here is what you said:

“Cons: organized religion makes outsiders see hypocrisy more easily in those who appear to be proponents of said religion.”

To put it another way: In regard to organized religion, outsiders of that organized religion are able to see hypocrisy more easily in that organized religion than insiders of that organized religion. At least, that is the way my word-challenged brain sees it.:confused:
 
PRmerger said:
Well, I gave you the Catholic answer as to what are the pros of organized religion. You are, after all, on the Catholic Answers Forum. I would assume that you would have expected a Catholic answer?

If you wanted the non-Christian answer, I guess you can pose that question on another forum.

🤷
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"Ask a Unitarian Universalist is the title of this thread. I hoped that a non-Catholic would have responded.
 
nmgauss said:
"Ask a Unitarian Universalist is the title of this thread. I hoped that a non-Catholic would have responded.
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The title of this forum is: Catholic Answers Forums.

You can see from my profile that I am a Catholic.

Do not expect answers from me that have divorced themselves from the Catholic faith.
 
nmgauss said:
Here is what you said:

“Cons: organized religion makes outsiders see hypocrisy more easily in those who appear to be proponents of said religion.”

To put it another way: In regard to organized religion, outsiders of that organized religion are able to see hypocrisy more easily in that organized religion than insiders of that organized religion. At least, that is the way my word-challenged brain sees it.:confused:
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Well, that’s true, I suppose. If one is a member of an organized religion and surrounded by hypocrisy it can be easier to become inured to it.
 
PRmerger said:
The title of this forum is: Catholic Answers Forums.

You can see from my profile that I am a Catholic.

Do not expect answers from me that have divorced themselves from the Catholic faith.
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I never expected you to answer. Answers from Catholics are beside the point.
 
PRmerger said:
That’s why we don’t just take things out of context.

The context tells us why in that particular time reading of that particular Bible was forbidden: because it contained heretical mistranslations.

It does indeed seem a bit harsh to me, too.

That members of the Church burned a man for mistranslating a passage (a dubious charge against these men, but for the sake of this discussion I will concede that this was the reason they sentenced Tyndale to death) ought not be confused with the Church teaches erroneous doctrines.
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Look what I found!

Tyndale’s translation was banned by the authorities, and Tyndale himself was burned at the stake in 1536, at the instigation of agents of Henry VIII and the Anglican Church.

tyndale-bible.com/tyndale-bible-history.html
 
PRmerger said:
:clapping:

Ah, that it came through the hands of the despicable King Henry VIII, and not through the agents of the One True Church, makes more sense now.
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Henry VIII was named Defender of the Faith by Pope Leo X.
 
Tomdstone said:
Henry VIII was named Defender of the Faith by Pope Leo X.
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Henry VIII was named Defender of the Faith because of a document he wrote. Defense of the Seven Sacraments, not his actions but his words.

Henry VIII broke away from the Catholic Church in what year? And was this before or after the execution of Tyndale in 1536?
 
Darryl_B said:
Henry VIII was named Defender of the Faith because of a document he wrote. Defense of the Seven Sacraments, not his actions but his words.

Henry VIII broke away from the Catholic Church in what year? And was this before or after the execution of Tyndale in 1536?
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A quick visit to Wikipedia gives 1534 for the separation.
 
mek42 said:
A quick visit to Wikipedia gives 1534 for the separation.
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So it does seem that Tyndale was a victim of the English Reformation, rather than a victim of the Catholic Church. Although at the same time I would like to take a moment to remember all the Catholics that were also a victim of the English Reformation.
 
Darryl_B said:
So it does seem that Tyndale was a victim of the English Reformation, rather than a victim of the Catholic Church. Although at the same time I would like to take a moment to remember all the Catholics that were also a victim of the English Reformation.
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When was Tyndale arrested?
 
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