Ask a Unitarian Universalist

[PRmerger]

The reason for my statement is the fact that if I walked into a building in which a group of people were meeting and found Buddhist, Hindu, Wiccan, Christian, Muslim, fill in the blank religious materials, the first thing I would ask is “What do you folks believe?”. Since one cannot believe all simultaneously I would have to conclude that they do not know what to believe. Others of your own organization have said that it matters not what one believes. That is not a statement which one who actually holds a belief would make.

Right.

Tolerance is the virtue of a man without any convictions.–GK Chesterton

 

[ProudUU]

Not exactly. Religion is about Truth.

For you. Not for me.

 

[PRmerger]

It is hard to say that something is “forbidden” - meaning that, since UUism doesn’t promote a “heaven” or “hell” and there is no dogma, we don’t really cotton to the idea of forbiddance, per se. We don’t worry about confession or anything like that. That said, though, there are values and beliefs that some people hold that absolutely are in direct violation of our core principles. Our core principles are quite broad - they don’t specifically state “you must believe xyz” or “you must not believe abc.” They represent a covenant we enter into with one another and with the world at large.

Fair enough.

So it is not forbidden to proclaim that women are inferior, white people are superior, and child molesters ought to be given positions of honor.

I really don’t think that is your paradigm.

So it would appear that there are some things which are forbidden. (I’m not sure what heaven and hell have to do with forbidden beliefs/practices.)

 

[PRmerger]

For you. Not for me.

So you would applaud an adult for believing in Santa Claus, if that made her a better person?

 

[ProudUU]

Fair enough.

So it is not forbidden to proclaim that women are inferior, white people are superior, and child molesters ought to be given positions of honor.

I really don’t think that is your paradigm.

So it would appear that there are some things which are forbidden. (I’m not sure what heaven and hell have to do with forbidden beliefs/practices.)

Proclaiming the above would go against the 1st, 2nd, 6th, and 7th core principles. Explicitly forbidden? No. Directly violating 4 of our 7 principles? Yes.

 

[ProudUU]

So you would applaud an adult for believing in Santa Claus, if that made her a better person?

If an adult actually believed that there was a jolly man at the North Pole who came down chimneys and handed out presents, but, in believing that, they treated others with more kindness and generosity and whatnot (IOW, that belief made them a better person), then, though I would think they were silly in believing in Santa Claus, I would think they were an OK person. I know someone who thinks she is an animal communicator, which I think is silly, but she is also one of the kindest, gentlest, empathetic people I know.

 

[LisaA]

Our core principles have been laid out several times on this thread. I fully accept that most folks on these boards don’t accept our core principles as valid beliefs, and that’s fine. Really. I’m not here to proselytize. But to continuously act as though UUism isn’t a valid religion or is nothing more than a social club is offensive, to be honest, and frankly, it comes across as belligerent ignorance. I have never felt as spiritually fulfilled as I do since becoming a UU and attending services. It’s a huge part of my everyday life. It has made me want to be a better person (and has made me a better person who is always learning and evolving). Just as, I’m sure, you would say about your religion.

Since I’m the one you are probably talking about calling UU a social club let me put this into context…I never said it was “nothing more than a social club” but that when I look at various definitions of a church or religion the UU organization seem to lack significant distinguishing characteristics that would differentiate it from another social club. This is not necessarily meant to be pejorative. There are many service clubs where people come together around a shared purpose or principles, where belonging to that club makes one want to and hopefully become a better person who is learning and “evolving” (whatever that means?). They become more spiritually fulfilled as members participating in the club’s service and educational opportunities.

That there are rituals such as candle lighting, singing songs, hearing a talk doesn’t distinguish the UU organization from other non-religious groups. Quite honestly at 4H meetings we used to start by hoisting the American and 4H flag, saying our club pledge which was to be of service “to my club my community and my country…” we had a number of 4H songs and other children’s songs that were sung at meetings and at events. Most meetings had a speaker giving a talk. We had a curriculum where we advanced through various levels of knowledge and experience. So is 4H a church?

IOW without any reference to a deity,to something greater than ourselves, how is UU a church? And I’m not trying to be snarky, it’s just something I didn’t understand and thus didn’t find anything at UU that I couldn’t find in other service or charitable organizations.
My past participation as a UU was so completely different than what I experience at Mass or Adoration or at a Taize service. It’s as if these are two completely different types of organiation. While I may have doctrinal differences with Methodism or even Judaism, I still view them as religious organizations but I just don’t see the same with the UU.

Lisa

 

[invisible_man]

Yes, you are wrong.

I like the UU faith. I think that it is a very nice religion. I enjoy listening to the sermons from UU pastors on the interent. I can at times listen to the UU paster located in Montclair New Jersey. I also think that UU people do much for the community when it comes to social justice. I take my hat off to your church.

 

[invisible_man]

IOW without any reference to a deity,to something greater than ourselves, how is UU a church? And I’m not trying to be snarky, it’s just something I didn’t understand and thus didn’t find anything at UU that I couldn’t find in other service or charitable organizations.
My past participation as a UU was so completely different than what I experience at Mass or Adoration or at a Taize service. It’s as if these are two completely different types of organiation. While I may have doctrinal differences with Methodism or even Judaism, I still view them as religious organizations but I just don’t see the same with the UU.

Lisa

I think that the UU faith is more of a humanist based faith where God does play a role. It seems that the stress is on creating a ‘heavenly’ human existence. Maybe the root UU philosophy can be found in loving your neighbor and in loving your enemy.

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe the root UU philosophy can be found in loving your neighbor and in loving your enemy.

No doubt. I don’t have a problem with that. I think UUs are some of the loveliest, most loving people around. (Hiya, Major Tom! )

What I do have issues with is how UUs have created a god in their own image, rather than conforming their image to God’s.

Their belief system consists of a god who happens to agree with every single one of their own beliefs.

Curious, isn’t it?

I can’t imagine that the God of the Universe would happen to agree with every single one of my own personal principles/beliefs/morals.

Rather, if there is a God, then His Ways are going to be superior to my ways. And what God has revealed is going to be what I conform my views to.

I change my principles/beliefs/morals based on what God has proclaimed.

Not find a god who happens to believe every single one of my principles/beliefs/morals.

 

[PRmerger]

If an adult actually believed that there was a jolly man at the North Pole who came down chimneys and handed out presents, but, in believing that, they treated others with more kindness and generosity and whatnot (IOW, that belief made them a better person), then, though I would think they were silly in believing in Santa Claus, I would think they were an OK person.

Fair enough.

Would you applaud and encourage this false belief?

 

[PRmerger]

Let’s start a discussion based on logic and reason here. You believe that the women going into abortion clinics have only “potential lives” in their wombs.

So when do you believe the “potential lives” in the wombs become “actual lives” and unable to be killed? At viability? At birth? When the umbilical cord is severed?

Could you answer this question, please, ProudUU?

 

[PRmerger]

If an adult actually believed that there was a jolly man at the North Pole who came down chimneys and handed out presents, but, in believing that, they treated others with more kindness and generosity and whatnot (IOW, that belief made them a better person), then, though I would think they were silly in believing in Santa Claus, I would think they were an OK person. I know someone who thinks she is an animal communicator, which I think is silly, but she is also one of the kindest, gentlest, empathetic people I know.

This reminds me of the tale “The Emperor’s New Clothes”. The Emperor was parading around butt naked, but quite happy in his delusion. But ever the FOOL.

Let’s take this story up a notch, and propose that this Emperor became a kinder and more generous person in the false belief that he was hiding his nakedness in the finest of clothes.

Would you applaud and encourage him? Would you aid and abet him in this delusion, ProudUU?

The Catholic paradigm does not encourage delusions. Nor does it encourage people to play the fool, even if it makes him kinder and more generous.

(NB: when I refer to a FOOL, I am in no way making any reference to anyone who does not have the ability to discern truth. I am talking about, well, FOOLS.)

 

[PRmerger]

You guys are really good at pushing things to extremes.

It’s the nature of discussions such as these, when we have such disparate views on things. We are forced to offer extreme examples to find common ground: that which we both find objectionable. I am forced to find an extreme example–a belief that I know you object to–rather than a mild example…because if I cite a mild example (say, divorce and re-marriage), you probably wouldn’t find any objection to that.

So we must resort to extremes–white supremacy, for example–in order for us to both say, “Yes, I do object to that!”.

I had a similar discussion with one of my besties, who believes all sorts of sexual behaviors are moral. So I had to appeal to a particular extreme to make my argument. Her response was similar to yours.

But if I had said, “Well, what about [insert sexual behavior that is not extreme]?” She would have said, “So what? That’s perfectly moral!”

Similarly, if I had said, “What about if a person wants to join the UU who believes that everyone should be able to drink alcohol legally at age 20” you would have said, “Sure! What’s the problem with that? Of course she’s welcome at our church!”

 

[ProudUU]

Fair enough.

Would you applaud and encourage this false belief?

No, but I would probably just leave it alone. As long as it’s not hurting anyone, I see no issue. Just as I don’t take my “animal communicator” friend to task for that (to take a real life example, for me, rather than the Santa one) - I just don’t bring it up. I don’t see any reason to be rude to her when her belief that she can talk to animals isn’t harming anything or anyone.

 

[PRmerger]

No, but I would probably just leave it alone

Right. I probably wouldn’t either.*

But you wouldn’t applaud and encourage this delusion. Because you see the importance of Truth.

Truth matters.

*Exception: if it were someone I loved, esp. my children, I would most definitely NOT leave it alone.

And I’m pretty sure that you would do everything you could to convince your adult daughter NOT to believe in this delusion, simply because it made her happy and kind. Right?

 

[ProudUU]

Could you answer this question, please, ProudUU?

I missed that post, sorry.

When a fetus can live separate from the host (in other words, at viability [which, yes, changes with the advent of medical science], and I use the word “host” because it’s not always the mother who is carrying the fetus, such as in the case of a surrogate), then it is no longer a “potential” life, in my view. But, since almost all abortions occur before this point, it’s really moot. 3rd trimester abortions are very rare, and they aren’t being chosen by women who think, “You know, I’ve come this far, but meh, I decided I don’t want this baby.” They’re almost always performed because of severe fetal anomalies or to save the life of the mother/host.

Since we seem to often have to take things to the extremes, if we force women to carry fetuses they do not wish to carry, then why shouldn’t we force people to be life support machines for born people? Why shouldn’t we force people to donate kidneys in order to save a born person? After all, you can live with one kidney, and there’s a long waiting list of people who need them.

I don’t think any person’s - man or woman - medical decisions are mine to make. It’s none of my business.

 

[ProudUU]

Right. I probably wouldn’t either.*

But you wouldn’t applaud and encourage this delusion. Because you see the importance of Truth.

Truth matters.

*Exception: if it were someone I loved, esp. my children, I would most definitely NOT leave it alone.

And I’m pretty sure that you would do everything you could to convince your adult daughter NOT to believe in this delusion, simply because it made her happy and kind. Right?

Truth matters in SOME things, of course. But there is no truth when it comes to religion. It’s all faith. It’s all personal beliefs. You may think you have found the truth, so fine, yay for you. I’m not going to tell you your beliefs are wrong or insincere. I think you truly believe you have found truth. Great. But, my beliefs are that there is no truth when it comes to a god/de/ss (or possibly plural), there is only faith and belief.

 

[Lochias]

Your proof must be in error, because the Jews do not accept your proof and they are pretty smart people as is seem from the disproportionate number of Nobel prizes they have won and the disproportionate number of Jews in the professional jobs such as lawyers, doctors, bankers, journalists, Supreme Court justices, etc.

…monetary success and personal IQ have nothing to do with whether or not a Bible verse has been taken out of context. Ding-dong, you’re wrong.

 

[Lochias]

Truth matters in SOME things, of course. But there is no truth when it comes to religion. It’s all faith. It’s all personal beliefs. You may think you have found the truth, so fine, yay for you. I’m not going to tell you your beliefs are wrong or insincere. I think you truly believe you have found truth. Great. But, my beliefs are that there is no truth when it comes to a god/de/ss (or possibly plural), there is only faith and belief.

…then why call the UU a “church”?

church
/CHərCH/
Noun

A building used for public Christian worship.
A particular Christian organization, typically one with its own clergy, buildings, and distinctive doctrines: "the Church of England".

If there’s no truth to any deity, isn’t the UU really just a social club after all (though certainly one that includes kind and generous members in its ranks)?