Ask a Unitarian Universalist

[dcioce]

Potential children, and it’s not murder because murder by definition is illegal and abortion is legal. There is a meaningful difference between “potential” and “actual”. Children are potential adults, but we don’t give them the right to vote, or the privileges of driving.

Meanwhile, the couple involved are actual adults, with all the rights that entails, including the right to make personal medical decisions appropriate for their unique circumstances. Between the potential child and the actual adults, the rights of the actual adults have all the weight.

So that having been said, where is the line between potential and actual child for me? That’s when the child can survive outside the womb (viability). That’s a meaningful line because now there is a way to distinguish between what the child is and, for example, a donated organ. Donated organs are living and they carry a distinct human genetic code. But they cannot survive without being attached inside a person, and a viable child can.

I was reading this post and even though it has been some time since this was posted, I felt compelled to respond. I have been Catholic for 33 years and I also attend Unity Universalist Church. I just want to say they do not encourage abortion nor do they bring it up at Church as a common discussion. The UU believe in peace and harmony and Zen within and with in the community. Peace will all things happiness, harmony and at one with God. Every Church is open for discussion on abortion but I need to say this being Secretary for NOW in Orlando. The Legislators and the Churches should not be between the decision making of a womens legs. I am for sex education but the decisions one makes should be there own. I have had someone near and dear who had to make a decision on the life they were carrying due to medical reasons. Clearly guidelines would have made it impossible for a Doctor who is trained and has taken the Hippocratic oath to make the right decision for his patient who’s life is endangered or where the life of the unborn is not viable body function wise after the delivery full term. The decisions that women make in regards to their health should only be made between a Doctor and a Patient not the community, legislators or our Churches. I have been beaten up in my home from some ministers for a choice I made some years back. They have poked their head through my walls electronically spread news that was not their right to spread. I had already been baptized for my sins after the fact. These men not only violated a HIPPA violation but clearly had emotional harm in their actions. This is unexceptable and cannot continue in this matter. Education, availability of birth control is very important. Abstinence is not going to happen and if we go around with our head up our rectum believing this then again another life will be conceived. These people think they are going to control the population by poking their head through your wall electronically and telling you how to live in your home. I have had to put up with this for over 11 years now. The next thing they are going to get is a cease and desist order and an United Nations formal complaint. Thanks for the opportunity for me to express myself here. I will say one more thing on Unity it is very different then traditional Catholic Churches. It is more in line with the wheel which would be more down the Kabbalah teachings which came from Judaism.They also use natural healing with the hands. Thanks!

 

[PRmerger]

Edify us! What was the answer to your exceedingly vague question? Since the level of cathechism is so poor, you might need to dumb it down and make it multiple choice.

Look, Tom. I can understand a bit why you’re defensive. You truly believe that you were well catechized. You do not take kindly to the fact that I don’t believe you were.

But, given the paradigm espoused by UUs, it would seem that YOU, if you really embrace the UU paradigm, ought to be more receptive to different points of view. There are a multitude of ways to view things–and most things are not black and white, according to the UU way of looking at things.

So it would seem more appropriate for you to say, “It may certainly be true for you, but my truth is different than yours.”

However, by your response, it does appear that you really, truly believe that there is an absolute truth, as it applies here: the truth you want to proclaim is: Major Tom was well catechized and knew the faith in which he left.

 

[PRmerger]

Mutually exclusive? No, it’s not mutually exclusive.
I also am perplexed at how the Catholic Church, supposedly the one true church, does such an abysmal job at teaching it’s flock. Is it the sorry state of humanity? The same humanity that was created by God, and actively guided by the Holy Spirit…? Odd.

And here’s an example of why I believe your catechesis was sorely lacking.

I can’t imagine any well-catechized Catholic thinking that a Church made of imperfect people would be incapable of teaching the faith poorly.

You don’t seem to have been taught the concept of a Church guided by the Holy Spirit being given the charism of infallibility, being unable to teach error…while also consisting of imperfect people who can do a dismal job in proclaiming these infallible truths.

I asked LisaA this before: do you think it’s possible to be well-cathechized, and open-minded, and not become Catholic? I say yes. I don’t recall your answer.

I absolutely do not think it’s possible.

[SIGN1]I haven’t found one well catechized ex-Catholic yet.[/SIGN1]

NB: there are not a few ex-Catholics who leave the faith because they want to be “re-married” to someone else, when they are already married. The are impervious to catechesis because they want to do what they want to do anyway. This, and a desire to embrace other sexual sins are a reason for a great number of Catholics leaving.

And there are a few ex-Catholics who leave because someone was rude to them (usually a priest, sadly enough).

And, it breaks my heart to say that there are people who leave because of the horrible atrocities committed by priests upon children. No one can deny that.

But catechesis has nothing to do with why any of these people left.

 

[Boulder257]

And here’s an example of why I believe your catechesis was sorely lacking.

I can’t imagine any well-catechized Catholic thinking that a Church made of imperfect people would be incapable of teaching the faith poorly.

You don’t seem to have been taught the concept of a Church guided by the Holy Spirit being given the charism of infallibility, being unable to teach error…while also consisting of imperfect people who can do a dismal job in proclaiming these infallible truths.

I absolutely do not think it’s possible.

[SIGN1]I haven’t found one well catechized ex-Catholic yet.[/SIGN1]

NB: there are not a few ex-Catholics who leave the faith because they want to be “re-married” to someone else, when they are already married. The are impervious to catechesis because they want to do what they want to do anyway. This, and a desire to embrace other sexual sins are a reason for a great number of Catholics leaving.

And there are a few ex-Catholics who leave because someone was rude to them (usually a priest, sadly enough).

And, it breaks my heart to say that there are people who leave because of the horrible atrocities committed by priests upon children. No one can deny that.

But catechesis has nothing to do with why any of these people left.

This!

 

[LisaA]

The man’s calmly asking some questions about policy, attempting to ensure civility, and you open up a can of snark on him? “Part of the problem”, what problem ? Just 'cos he’s “late” doesn’t mean he shouldn’t speak his mind.

Come on, he’s got a cool avatar too.

Ground Control to Major Tom,

I did not unload a can of snark. CAF has rules and there are unwritten rules of decorum on the forum as well. One of the more annoying phenomena are the posters who come in after hundreds of posts and either re-introduce subjects that have been discussed in detail or complain they don’t like the way the thread is progressing. As I said in my response, I’ve tried numerous times to return the thread to the subject with little result. However a) he’s welcome to try to get the thread on track or b) find another thread in which to participate. Coming in to tell us we are bad boys and girls without offering a solution is not helpful IMHO.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

I was reading this post and even though it has been some time since this was posted, I felt compelled to respond. I have been Catholic for 33 years and I also attend Unity Universalist Church. I just want to say they do not encourage abortion nor do they bring it up at Church as a common discussion. The UU believe in peace and harmony and Zen within and with in the community. Peace will all things happiness, harmony and at one with God. Every Church is open for discussion on abortion but I need to say this being Secretary for NOW in Orlando. The Legislators and the Churches should not be between the decision making of a womens legs. I am for sex education but the decisions one makes should be there own. I have had someone near and dear who had to make a decision on the life they were carrying due to medical reasons. Clearly guidelines would have made it impossible for a Doctor who is trained and has taken the Hippocratic oath to make the right decision for his patient who’s life is endangered or where the life of the unborn is not viable body function wise after the delivery full term. The decisions that women make in regards to their health should only be made between a Doctor and a Patient not the community, legislators or our Churches. I have been beaten up in my home from some ministers for a choice I made some years back. They have poked their head through my walls electronically spread news that was not their right to spread. I had already been baptized for my sins after the fact. These men not only violated a HIPPA violation but clearly had emotional harm in their actions. This is unexceptable and cannot continue in this matter. Education, availability of birth control is very important. Abstinence is not going to happen and if we go around with our head up our rectum believing this then again another life will be conceived. These people think they are going to control the population by poking their head through your wall electronically and telling you how to live in your home. I have had to put up with this for over 11 years now. The next thing they are going to get is a cease and desist order and an United Nations formal complaint. Thanks for the opportunity for me to express myself here. I will say one more thing on Unity it is very different then traditional Catholic Churches. It is more in line with the wheel which would be more down the Kabbalah teachings which came from Judaism.They also use natural healing with the hands. Thanks!

Since this is your first post, I say welcome to the forum. I understand Unity is much different than the UU church. Based on your post, it appears to be in direct conflict with the teaching of the Catholic Church so I wonder how your reslove the conflict between your Catholic faith.

Your review regarding abortion is sadly lacking in factual basis as well as adherence to your stated Catholic faith. I hope you will spend time on the forums learning about the Consistent Life Ethic that is an integral part of being Catholic.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Edify us! What was the answer to your exceedingly vague question? Since the level of cathechism is so poor, you might need to dumb it down and make it multiple choice.

Mutually exclusive? No, it’s not mutually exclusive.
I also am perplexed at how the Catholic Church, supposedly the one true church, does such an abysmal job at teaching it’s flock. Is it the sorry state of humanity? The same humanity that was created by God, and actively guided by the Holy Spirit…? Odd.

I asked LisaA this before: do you think it’s possible to be well-cathechized, and open-minded, and not become Catholic? I say yes. I don’t recall your answer.

Major Tom, PRMerger has done a marvelous job responding to your questions but as you’ve mentioned me specifically I don’t want to appear to be ignoring your question.

I think if you were truly well catechized and open minded, the Church’s teaching is so compelling I think it would be extremely difficult to deny. Could someone ignore reason, rational, and truth…sure, they do it every day But do I think they would have a greatly diminished life through ignoring the Truth.

As to the Church’s seeming inability to teach, could it possibly be that the students are also not able or unwilling to learn? Many of my cradle Catholic friends comment that they grudgingly went to Catechism classes and other religious education to mollify their parents. They weren’t ready to learn or willing to incorporate what was being taught. Also in all fairness, Religious Education isn’t universally outstanding. What I’ve found is that adult Catholics who went to a Catholic school where the Church’s teaching, going to Mass, celebrating Holy Days, and interacting with Priests and Religious are far more likely to be faithful practicing Catholics than those whose parents rarely went to Mass and whose religious education was limited to an hour on Sunday.

Just curious if you would describe your childhood catechism and what teaching you specifically reject.
Lisa

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Edify us! What was the answer to your exceedingly vague question? Since the level of cathechism is so poor, you might need to dumb it down and make it multiple choice.

I’ve been waiting for the answer too!! I think it’s Psalms, but I’m not sure. PR Merger please enlighten us all.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve been waiting for the answer too!! I think it’s Psalms, but I’m not sure. PR Merger please enlighten us all.

The entire Mass.

The Mass is the fulfillment of the Passover, where Jesus, the Lamb of God, is offered in perpetuity before the throne of heaven.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The entire Mass.

The Mass is the fulfillment of the Passover, where Jesus, the Lamb of God, is offered in perpetuity before the throne of heaven.

Interesting! Thanks.

 

[ffg]

I think it is appropriate for the questioner to ask questions about the topic, which is Universal Unitarianism. Not to ask him how much he knows about Catholicism. It is a Catholic message board, but this is the non-Catholic religions sub-forum. The entire rest of the forum is devoted to Catholic topics.

By starting this off-topic conversation and continuing it, you are doing exactly what you are claiming should not be done.

It’s been a good thread. You don’t have to read it, or contribute another off-topic topic.

 

[Major_Tom]

However, by your response, it does appear that you really, truly believe that there is an absolute truth, as it applies here: the truth you want to proclaim is: Major Tom was well catechized and knew the faith in which he left.

Good lord, you’re a piece of work. You spin this to make it sound as if I’m an Old Testament prophet. Trumpeting my opinion into absolute truth. That has me sounding very pompous, after you initiated this by smugly challenging my opinion. (Opinion, which is not absolute truth). Wow, that’s a mischaracterization. I expect more from you.

Look, Tom. I can understand a bit why you’re defensive. You truly believe that you were well catechized. You do not take kindly to the fact that I don’t believe you were.

But, given the paradigm espoused by UUs, it would seem that YOU, if you really embrace the UU paradigm, ought to be more receptive to different points of view. There are a multitude of ways to view things–and most things are not black and white, according to the UU way of looking at things.

So it would seem more appropriate for you to say, “It may certainly be true for you, but my truth is different than yours.”

You’re conflating content with delivery. I challenged your delivery. I think that was quite clear.

But, given the paradigm espoused by UUs, it would seem that YOU, if you really embrace the UU paradigm, ought to be more receptive to different points of view. There are a multitude of ways to view things–and most things are not black and white, according to the UU way of looking at things.

So it would seem more appropriate for you to say, “It may certainly be true for you, but my truth is different than yours.”

Yes, I should be more patient. I suppose it’s possible that you’re my bodhisattva. Then again, who knows, maybe I’m yours…

 

[Major_Tom]

And here’s an example of why I believe your catechesis was sorely lacking.

I can’t imagine any well-catechized Catholic thinking that a Church made of imperfect people would be incapable of teaching the faith poorly.

You are not accurate. I said odd, not incapable.

I absolutely do not think it’s possible.

[SIGN1]I haven’t found one well catechized ex-Catholic yet.[/SIGN1]

And I’ve never met a Sherpa. But it doesn’t mean that they don’t exist.

Anecdotes are powerful, but you can’t make policy on anecdotes.

NB: there are not a few ex-Catholics who leave the faith because they want to be “re-married” to someone else, when they are already married. The are impervious to catechesis because they want to do what they want to do anyway. This, and a desire to embrace other sexual sins are a reason for a great number of Catholics leaving.

And there are a few ex-Catholics who leave because someone was rude to them (usually a priest, sadly enough).

And, it breaks my heart to say that there are people who leave because of the horrible atrocities committed by priests upon children. No one can deny that.

But catechesis has nothing to do with why any of these people left.

Can’t argue. But neither applies to me, so not germane.

 

[Major_Tom]

The entire Mass.

The Mass is the fulfillment of the Passover, where Jesus, the Lamb of God, is offered in perpetuity before the throne of heaven.

o-hoooo! Do you grade on a curve?

I got this answer wrong, and, let’s see: my cathechesis was in called in to question, and I got a smug video clip. What does Christine get?

Sorry, Christine, not trying to get in trouble… wouldn’t want you to have to retake Sunday school. (Between us, that question was pretty vague, wasn’t it? )

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, I should be more patient.

 

[PRmerger]

Good lord, you’re a piece of work. You spin this to make it sound as if I’m an Old Testament prophet. Trumpeting my opinion into absolute truth.

Fair enough.

Then if it’s* not* absolute truth, then your response to my suggestion that you actually are not well catechized is peculiar.

It’s like your saying, “I believe that staph causes strep throat” and my saying, “No. I disagree with you. It’s strep pyogenes that causes strep throat.”

And you respond with, “How dare you be so offensive!”

:whacky:

If you’re not absolutely sure about your position, then you ought to be more receptive to contrary opinions.

 

[PRmerger]

You’re conflating content with delivery. I challenged your delivery. I think that was quite clear.

Again, fair enough.

You took offense to my use of a GIF that said, “Nope”?

But you don’t have any emotion attached to the fact that I don’t believe you are well catechized. At all.

Is this a correct synopsis of your position?

If so, then I merrily retract the use of the GIF. I rescind it and will never use it again in dialogue with you, in this context.

 

[PRmerger]

You are not accurate. I said odd, not incapable.

Ok.

Your question however is just another piece of evidence that limns your poor catechesis.

No well-catechized Catholic would be unable to answer that question.

And I’ve never met a Sherpa. But it doesn’t mean that they don’t exist.

Can you point me to a well-catechized ex-Catholic? I am certainly willing to entertain the notion that he exists.

But at this point I am an agnostic as to his/her existence.

 

[PRmerger]

Can’t argue. But neither applies to me, so not germane.

Right.

What applies to you is this: Searcher who leaves the Catholic faith that he actually didn’t know.

This is demonstrated, just in this thread, by the inability to know where the OT is referenced in the Mass, and the question as to how the Catholic Church could provide abysmal catechesis yet also be the One True Church guided by the Holy Spirit.

No well-catechized Catholic is unable to reconcile that.

 

[ffg]

I was thinking about that well-catechized non-catholic point.

I think the key is that it is an impossibility. A quick and narrow thought process…

A well catechized person would know world history and events that were predicted and have occured in time regarding a guy who claimed to be God. That that guy stepped up to the plate didn’t flinch and did what he said he was going to do.

A well catechized person would know who Peter was in life before and after meeting that Jesus guy.

A well catechized person would know the Pope is the successor of Peter. Thus a well Catechized person would know where the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church is located.

A well-catechized person would understand the sacraments were ‘instituted by Christ to give grace’ and use them, thus recieving grace which has deepening effects of understanding along with other fruits.

There are so many Catholics who don’t understand the Church. Is it a coincidence or logical that a person who doesn’t participate in the Church also doesn’t understand the Church?

Considering we are talking about divine work done to and through humans, if the Church is true, hypothesis of impossibility to run into a well-catechized non-Catholic is quite logical.