Ask about Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[steve99]

I have some question about Catholic Charismatics Renewal:

1. Did Vatikan concede the Catholic Charismatic Renewal (CCR) and affiliated Catholic Charismatic (CCR) in Catholic Church? Is Catholic Charismatic truely Catholic? Has CCR already proper with the doctrine of Roman Catholic?
2. Why did Vatikan/Pope not notify (officially, for ex.ensiklik, motu proprio, etc)) or declare about Catholic Charismatic Movement (CCR) received or no received in Roman Catholic Church?
3. As we know that in many Catholics Charismatic community, they have a lot of abuse. Why Catholic Church or Vatikan can tolerate this abuse? Because many community CCR in my country (Jakarta) they practice like protestant in their worship or praise. (that abuse for ex. holy spirit baptism, speak in tongue, resting, miracles illness, etc?
4. Some Catholics in my country said that CCR is misguided/heterodox so, Catholic mankind is not permissible to join in with CCR. Is Catholic Charismatic really misguided?

I’m sorry if my english look “upside-down”…, because my english is bad enough. I hope you understand what the point in my question.

Thank you.

Dear monokorob,

There is a lot of misconception of the CCR.

It is fully Catholic, fully in accordance with Church doctrines, and approved of by Popes
Pope Paul VI referred to the CCR as “a chance for the Church and for the world”

From your questions you seem to think that CCR is some sort of movement like Focolare, or Neo-Catechumenate. It is not like that. There is no founder other than the Holy Spirit. It does not have members or an organisation structure such those movements do. When there have been big meetings in Rome of all the Movements with the Pope, the CCR is present but not in the same way as the Movements.

It has service committees which are there to serve the Renewal, but they have no authority over those in the Renewal. The highest level of service committee is ICCRS (International Charismatic Renewal Services). The chairperson of this has (or used to have) regular meetings with the Pope.

Your point 3 is I think an unfounded slur on CCR. There is some abuse of CCR by “traditional” catholics who don’t like the style of worship at prayer meetings.

What is wrong with Baptism with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, miracles? All very scriptural.

Re point 4 – “some Catholics say” – some Catholics say all sorts of things. Some Catholics say abortion is Ok or homosexuality is OK. We need to avoid unspecific phrases like some Catholics say……

God bless

Steve

 

[fierysword1920]

I would look at the charismatic movement very suspiciously. I speak regularly with Rick Salbato over at unitypublishing.com and he is an apologist and he stated that the Church does not recognize this group or entity and that it’s roots began in pentecostalism that has tried to invade the church. It is not proper with RCC Law.

I have some question about Catholic Charismatics Renewal:

1. Did Vatikan concede the Catholic Charismatic Renewal (CCR) and affiliated Catholic Charismatic (CCR) in Catholic Church? Is Catholic Charismatic truely Catholic? Has CCR already proper with the doctrine of Roman Catholic?
2. Why did Vatikan/Pope not notify (officially, for ex.ensiklik, motu proprio, etc)) or declare about Catholic Charismatic Movement (CCR) received or no received in Roman Catholic Church?
3. As we know that in many Catholics Charismatic community, they have a lot of abuse. Why Catholic Church or Vatikan can tolerate this abuse? Because many community CCR in my country (Jakarta) they practice like protestant in their worship or praise. (that abuse for ex. holy spirit baptism, speak in tongue, resting, miracles illness, etc?
4. Some Catholics in my country said that CCR is misguided/heterodox so, Catholic mankind is not permissible to join in with CCR. Is Catholic Charismatic really misguided?

I’m sorry if my english look “upside-down”…, because my english is bad enough. I hope you understand what the point in my question.

Thank you.

 

[steve99]

I would look at the charismatic movement very suspiciously. I speak regularly with Rick Salbato over at unitypublishing.com and he is an apologist and he stated that the Church does not recognize this group or entity and that it’s roots began in pentecostalism that has tried to invade the church. It is not proper with RCC Law.

This is absolute bilge!

CCR is fully part of the Church, fully accepted by Popes. Iget really fed up with this sort of nonsense being trotted out when it has all been discussed many times.

 

[fierysword1920]

This is absolute bilge!

CCR is fully part of the Church, fully accepted by Popes. Iget really fed up with this sort of nonsense being trotted out when it has all been discussed many times.

Who says it is, You? I have never seen this anywhere. Charismatics is dangerous and opens the door to all kinds of nutjobs claiming that they have direct links with Mary, Joseph, Jesus and God the Father himself. Go over to unitypublishing.com and you will see all of the heretics and liars that claimed to be a charismatics. Speaking in tongues is garbage also.

 

[steve99]

Who says it is, You? I have never seen this anywhere. Charismatics is dangerous and opens the door to all kinds of nutjobs claiming that they have direct links with Mary, Joseph, Jesus and God the Father himself. Go over to unitypublishing.com and you will see all of the heretics and liars that claimed to be a charismatics. Speaking in tongues is garbage also.

• Below is a post by Sarah_Jane from a previous thread on this subject
• "For his part, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has added his voice to the Pope’s in acknowledging the good occurring in the Charismatic Renewal and providing some cautions. In a forward to a book by Cardinal Suenens, at that time the Pope’s delegate to the Charismatic Renewal, the Prefect comments on the Post-Conciliar period stating,
  At the heart of a world imbued with a rationalistic skepticism, a new experience of the Holy Spirit suddenly burst forth. And, since then, that experience has assumed a breadth of a worldwide Renewal movement. What the New Testament tells us about the charisms - which were seen as visible signs of the coming of the Spirit - is not just ancient history, over and done with, for it is once again becoming extremely topical.
  Speaking of the book’s subject, renewal and the powers of darkness, he says,
  What is the relation between personal experience and the common faith of the Church? Both factors are important: a dogmatic faith unsupported by personal experience remains empty; mere personal experience unrelated to the faith of the Church remains blind.
  Finally, he urges those who read the book to pay special attention to the author’s double plea,
  … to those responsible for the ecclesiastical ministry - from parish priests to bishops - not to let the Renewal pass them by but to welcome it fully; and on the other (hand) … to the members of the Renewal to cherish and maintain their link with the whole Church and with the charisms of their pastors. *Renewal and the Powers of Darkness, *Leo Cardinal Suenens (Ann Arbor: Servant Books, 1983)] "
  Source : ewtn.com/expert/answers/c…ic_renewal.htm

*I would add here a few quotes from *from the USA Bishops’ Liaison Committee (1984):
“the charismatic renewal is a grace for the Church”
“clearly the charismatic renewal is in and for the Church, not alongside the Church”
and they reiterate their own past commendations of the renewal for “the fruit of holiness and good works born in the lives of those who become involved in the movement”.

 

[fierysword1920]

This I can go with. I see what you mean, but different Bishops have still warned against another type of charism that does have it’s beginnings in pentecostalism. This is what I say is BS, just look at medjorge and that broad out in California and many other places that people have started apostate movements due to false charismatics. A person always needs to be on guard for this because there are always nuts out here that are speaking with or for God or one of the Saints, angels etc. etc. Satan has and is using these movements to mingle his bad with the good.

• Below is a post by Sarah_Jane from a previous thread on this subject
• "For his part, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has added his voice to the Pope’s in acknowledging the good occurring in the Charismatic Renewal and providing some cautions. In a forward to a book by Cardinal Suenens, at that time the Pope’s delegate to the Charismatic Renewal, the Prefect comments on the Post-Conciliar period stating,
  At the heart of a world imbued with a rationalistic skepticism, a new experience of the Holy Spirit suddenly burst forth. And, since then, that experience has assumed a breadth of a worldwide Renewal movement. What the New Testament tells us about the charisms - which were seen as visible signs of the coming of the Spirit - is not just ancient history, over and done with, for it is once again becoming extremely topical.
  Speaking of the book’s subject, renewal and the powers of darkness, he says,
  What is the relation between personal experience and the common faith of the Church? Both factors are important: a dogmatic faith unsupported by personal experience remains empty; mere personal experience unrelated to the faith of the Church remains blind.
  Finally, he urges those who read the book to pay special attention to the author’s double plea,
  … to those responsible for the ecclesiastical ministry - from parish priests to bishops - not to let the Renewal pass them by but to welcome it fully; and on the other (hand) … to the members of the Renewal to cherish and maintain their link with the whole Church and with the charisms of their pastors. *Renewal and the Powers of Darkness, *Leo Cardinal Suenens (Ann Arbor: Servant Books, 1983)] "
  Source : ewtn.com/expert/answers/c…ic_renewal.htm

*I would add here a few quotes from *from the USA Bishops’ Liaison Committee (1984):
“the charismatic renewal is a grace for the Church”
“clearly the charismatic renewal is in and for the Church, not alongside the Church”
and they reiterate their own past commendations of the renewal for “the fruit of holiness and good works born in the lives of those who become involved in the movement”.

 

[VociMike]

steve99,

What exactly is the “Catholic Charismatic Renewal”? How is it identified? What makes it unique? What are these cautions that the post you cited mentions, and why were they necessary?

Oh, and what is “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”? I thought the Church taught that there is only one Baptism.

 

[steve99]

This I can go with. I see what you mean, but different Bishops have still warned against another type of charism that does have it’s beginnings in pentecostalism. This is what I say is BS, just look at medjorge and that broad out in California and many other places that people have started apostate movements due to false charismatics. A person always needs to be on guard for this because there are always nuts out here that are speaking with or for God or one of the Saints, angels etc. etc. Satan has and is using these movements to mingle his bad with the good.

I’ll just add a bit more

I quote from GoodNews magazine issue 190

“Today, ICCRS has official Vatican statutes and works in communion with the Holy See. It acts as a link or bridge between the worldwide Renewal and the institutional Church.”

“At the recent Council meeting Archbishop Rylko, the President of the PCL [Pontifical Council for Laity] complemented ICCRS on a number of its recent initiatives. These included the Formation Institute held in Rome for three weeks in June, the work of the ICCRS Theological Commission which has recently produced some guidelines on the healing ministry, and the 2008 Colloquium on the Charisms where practitioners in the Renewal will meet with Vatican officials and explore together the place and use of the Charisms in the Church today. All these initiatives comply with the request of John Paul II that all the movements should engage in the process of growing in Ecclesial Maturity.”

I have looked at Unitypublishing. It is hardly a site I would give much credence to. The articles about Charismatic Renewal are a travesty, full of innuendoes, anecdotal rubbish and outright lies. Take this:

“In order to accommodate the non-Catholics and Satan, himself, Catholic Charismatics do not make the sign of the cross before praying, after praying, or at anytime. They do not use Holy Water. They do not kneel when praying. They do not use blessed Crucifixes or relics. They do not conduct their prayer sessions inside a Church where the Blessed Sacrament exists, except when forced by circumstances.”
I have been CCR for over 12 years and I know of no Catholic Charismatic to who this could be applied.

 

[mercygate]

My 2 cents (or less). I have had no personal involvement with the Charismatic Renewal but have several acquaintances who have been or are connected with it, who have gone through Life in the Spirit Seminars, and who attend Charismatic prayer groups.

Among this small sample of acquaintances I have seen absolutely NO attempt at exotic weirdness (at least in the “ordinary” settings where I have met them). The Confraternity of Penitents annual retreat last summer was conducted by Fr. John Randall, one of the people involved with the CCR early on. He was absolutely exemplary in every way and gave us a Spirit-filled retreat.

I personally know people who claim to have experienced near-miraculous healings in “Charismatic” prayer settings.

People like Fr. Benedict Groeschel and Mother Angelica have been strongly influenced by the Charismatic Renewal.

You cannot take a tarbrush to this and write it all off as “Protestant”, “glory-seeking”, or “New Age nonsense.” My Charismatic friends are very aware of the possibility of abuse, confusion and deceit when one approaches the charismatic gifts. VERY aware, and very cautious.

It seems to be like a lot of other things: Depends on who you know, who you talk to.

 

[mercygate]

“In order to accommodate the non-Catholics and Satan, himself, Catholic Charismatics do not make the sign of the cross before praying, after praying, or at anytime. They do not use Holy Water. They do not kneel when praying. They do not use blessed Crucifixes or relics. They do not conduct their prayer sessions inside a Church where the Blessed Sacrament exists, except when forced by circumstances.”

I have been CCR for over 12 years and I know of no Catholic Charismatic to who this could be applied.

I have no business on this thread but at our CFP retreat this summer, Fr. John Randall, who was and IS deeply involved in the Charismatic Movement, devoted part of one of the retreat addresses to the importance of Holy Water and other sacramentals, such as blessed salt. He went so far as to say that in spiritual warfare, he prefers to bless the water using the old formula.

BTW, Fr. Randall is very Marian as well as Charismatic and finds it strange that the “Marian” people and the “Charismatic” people in a parish tend to stay away from each other. Randall says that Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and they have never got a divorce. He is convinced that bringing the two devotional emphases together will produce more power in the Church than has been seen since Pentecost.

 

[steve99]

steve99,

What exactly is the “Catholic Charismatic Renewal”? How is it identified? What makes it unique? What are these cautions that the post you cited mentions, and why were they necessary?

Oh, and what is “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”? I thought the Church taught that there is only one Baptism.

Catholic Charismatic Renewal is a response by the Holy Spirit to the prayer of Pope John XXIII “Renew you wonders in our time as though for a new Pentecost”

I quote from a booklet by Charles Whitehead who was for many years the chairman of ICCRS

• It’s a personal experience of the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, who brings alive in new ways the graces pf baptism. The Holy Spirit not only sets on fire all that we have already received, but some again in power to equip us with his gifts for service and mission.*

The term “Baptism with the Holy Spirit” comes from the words of Jesus:

While staying with them, he ordered them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait there for the promise of the Father. “This,” he said, “is what you have heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” – Acts1:4-5

It is a term used for that outpouring of the Holy Spirit that happened at Pentecost and also in Acts 4:31 “When they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness.”

Many Catholics are not happy with the term because it can be confused with our sacramental Baptism and prefer something like “release of the Spirit” or “infilling with the Holy Spirit”

 

[VociMike]

Catholic Charismatic Renewal is a response by the Holy Spirit to the prayer of Pope John XXIII “Renew you wonders in our time as though for a new Pentecost”

I quote from a booklet by Charles Whitehead who was for many years the chairman of ICCRS

• It’s a personal experience of the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, who brings alive in new ways the graces pf baptism. The Holy Spirit not only sets on fire all that we have already received, but some again in power to equip us with his gifts for service and mission.*

If it is a “personal experience”, how does that translate into being an international movement? I’m still not clear how this personal experience translates into a unique and distinct movement. For example, if I attended a “CCR Mass”, how would it be different than any other Mass, or would it be indistinguishable? If I were to attend a “CCR bible study” how would it be different, or would it be indistinguishable?

The term “Baptism with the Holy Spirit” comes from the words of Jesus:

While staying with them, he ordered them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait there for the promise of the Father. “This,” he said, “is what you have heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” – Acts1:4-5

It is a term used for that outpouring of the Holy Spirit that happened at Pentecost and also in Acts 4:31 “When they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness.”

Many Catholics are not happy with the term because it can be confused with our sacramental Baptism and prefer something like “release of the Spirit” or “infilling with the Holy Spirit”

That seems fair enough.

 

[jam070406]

I’m a bit creeped out by this whole charismatic movement. I really don’t see the purpose. Speaking in tongues is not meant to be incoherent babblings. It seems like people are seeking after signs and wonders or testing God. I will personally stay far clear from this bizarre movement. I’m not so sure it isn’t the influence of the evil one at work.

 

[fierysword1920]

I can’t testify to the truth of Rick’s allegations, but I can add that he is an officially recognized apologist by the vatican and has been utilized in investigating many claims where supernatural phenomenon is claimed to have occurred. There is much truth contained in his site for catholics who consider themselves to be orthodox.

I’ll just add a bit more

I quote from GoodNews magazine issue 190

“Today, ICCRS has official Vatican statutes and works in communion with the Holy See. It acts as a link or bridge between the worldwide Renewal and the institutional Church.”

“At the recent Council meeting Archbishop Rylko, the President of the PCL [Pontifical Council for Laity] complemented ICCRS on a number of its recent initiatives. These included the Formation Institute held in Rome for three weeks in June, the work of the ICCRS Theological Commission which has recently produced some guidelines on the healing ministry, and the 2008 Colloquium on the Charisms where practitioners in the Renewal will meet with Vatican officials and explore together the place and use of the Charisms in the Church today. All these initiatives comply with the request of John Paul II that all the movements should engage in the process of growing in Ecclesial Maturity.”

I have looked at Unitypublishing. It is hardly a site I would give much credence to. The articles about Charismatic Renewal are a travesty, full of innuendoes, anecdotal rubbish and outright lies. Take this:

“In order to accommodate the non-Catholics and Satan, himself, Catholic Charismatics do not make the sign of the cross before praying, after praying, or at anytime. They do not use Holy Water. They do not kneel when praying. They do not use blessed Crucifixes or relics. They do not conduct their prayer sessions inside a Church where the Blessed Sacrament exists, except when forced by circumstances.”
I have been CCR for over 12 years and I know of no Catholic Charismatic to who this could be applied.

 

[steve99]

I can’t testify to the truth of Rick’s allegations, but I can add that he is an officially recognized apologist by the vatican and has been utilized in investigating many claims where supernatural phenomenon is claimed to have occurred. There is much truth contained in his site for catholics who consider themselves to be orthodox.

Can you supply any criticism of Catholic Charismatic Renewal by the Vatican?

 

[Reepicheep]

I’ll just add a bit more

I quote from GoodNews magazine issue 190

“Today, ICCRS has official Vatican statutes and works in communion with the Holy See. It acts as a link or bridge between the worldwide Renewal and the institutional Church.”

“At the recent Council meeting Archbishop Rylko, the President of the PCL [Pontifical Council for Laity] complemented ICCRS on a number of its recent initiatives. These included the Formation Institute held in Rome for three weeks in June, the work of the ICCRS Theological Commission which has recently produced some guidelines on the healing ministry, and the 2008 Colloquium on the Charisms where practitioners in the Renewal will meet with Vatican officials and explore together the place and use of the Charisms in the Church today. All these initiatives comply with the request of John Paul II that all the movements should engage in the process of growing in Ecclesial Maturity.”

I have looked at Unitypublishing. It is hardly a site I would give much credence to. The articles about Charismatic Renewal are a travesty, full of innuendoes, anecdotal rubbish and outright lies. Take this:

“In order to accommodate the non-Catholics and Satan, himself, Catholic Charismatics do not make the sign of the cross before praying, after praying, or at anytime. They do not use Holy Water. They do not kneel when praying. They do not use blessed Crucifixes or relics. They do not conduct their prayer sessions inside a Church where the Blessed Sacrament exists, except when forced by circumstances.”
I have been CCR for over 12 years and I know of no Catholic Charismatic to who this could be applied.

Hmm.
I am a Catholic Charismatic.
I do use the Sign of the Cross when I pray.
I sprinkle Holy Water in each room of my home each day, and make use of the Holy Water font each time I enter the church.
I kneel in prayer, at church and sometimes during the Charismatic prayer meetings. (Sometimes I pray while seated or standing, but by no means does that mean I don’t also kneel).
There is a crucifix n the wall of my bedroom. There is a crucifix on the wall of the meeting room during the group’s prayer meetings.
The prayer group attends Mass together once a month, which means we bring the Blessed Sacrament into the meeting hall.
Every year I attend two Charismatic Conferences, events where hundreds of Catholic Charismatics from many prayer groups gather for three days at a time.
I see at these events, all the things the Unitypublishing quote claims we don’t do.

Jesus Christ is Lord, and I have never seen a Charismatic meeting at which we failed to give glory to God.

 

[steve99]

I’m a bit creeped out by this whole charismatic movement. I really don’t see the purpose. Speaking in tongues is not meant to be incoherent babblings. It seems like people are seeking after signs and wonders or testing God. I will personally stay far clear from this bizarre movement. I’m not so sure it isn’t the influence of the evil one at work.

Pope John Paul II in 1979

“This is my first meeting with you Catholic Charismatics…… I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his [the Holy Spirit] action. The world is in much need of this action of the Holy Spirit and it needs instruments for this action… I am convinced that this movement is a very important component in the total renewal of the Church, in this spiritual renewal of the Church.”

In 1998 Pope John Paul II called all the lay movements, including the Charismatic Renewal to come and celebrate the vigil of Pentecost with him in St. Peters. Ijn his speech to them he said
“The institutional and the charismatic aspects are co-essential as it were to the Church’s constitution. They contribute, although differently, to the life, renewal and sanctification of God’s people. It is to this providential rediscovery of the Church’s charismatic dimension that, before and after the council, a remarkable pattern of growth has been established for ecclesial movements and new communities.”

Later in the same speech he said
“Today I would like to cry out to all of you gathered in St. Peter’s Square and to all Christians: Open yourselves docilely to the gifts of the Spirit! Accept gratefully and obediently the charisms which the Spirit necer ceases to bestow on us!.

 

[steve99]

If it is a “personal experience”, how does that translate into being an international movement? I’m still not clear how this personal experience translates into a unique and distinct movement. For example, if I attended a “CCR Mass”, how would it be different than any other Mass, or would it be indistinguishable? If I were to attend a “CCR bible study” how would it be different, or would it be indistinguishable?

That seems fair enough.

All encounters with God are personal. I quote from the booklet I quoted from before:
" The Renewal exists to help people live a new life in the power of the Holy Spirit - not to bring them into something called the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. We are renewed when we open ourselves to God and accept what he is offering us - the fullness of the Holy Spirit."

CCR Masses are no different in essentials from other Masses, same Missal, same prayers, same readings etc. etc. On the other hand all Masses are different in some way from another depending on the priest, the congregation, the hymns (or lack of them) etc. etc.

 

[VociMike]

CCR Masses are no different in essentials from other Masses, same Missal, same prayers, same readings etc. etc. On the other hand all Masses are different in some way from another depending on the priest, the congregation, the hymns (or lack of them) etc. etc.

This doesn’t seem to correspond with the tidbits I’ve heard and read. Are you saying that there is no common (not universal, but common) “style” of CCR Mass? That if one looked at 1000 CCR Masses one would not be able to distinguish them from 1000 non-CCR Masses? If that is the case then people have been spreading misinformation.

 

[steve99]

Hmm.
I am a Catholic Charismatic.
I do use the Sign of the Cross when I pray.
I sprinkle Holy Water in each room of my home each day, and make use of the Holy Water font each time I enter the church.
I kneel in prayer, at church and sometimes during the Charismatic prayer meetings. (Sometimes I pray while seated or standing, but by no means does that mean I don’t also kneel).
There is a crucifix n the wall of my bedroom. There is a crucifix on the wall of the meeting room during the group’s prayer meetings.
The prayer group attends Mass together once a month, which means we bring the Blessed Sacrament into the meeting hall.
Every year I attend two Charismatic Conferences, events where hundreds of Catholic Charismatics from many prayer groups gather for three days at a time.
I see at these events, all the things the Unitypublishing quote claims we don’t do.

Jesus Christ is Lord, and I have never seen a Charismatic meeting at which we failed to give glory to God.

So do I Reepicheep.

And can I add a note about this business of standing to pray. The Unitypublishing site says about Charismatic Catholics “They do not kneel when praying.” as though praying in any other posture were some bizarre occult practice.

At Mass when the priest says “Let us pray” (e.g. before the readings or before the final prayer) what do we all do? Stand - at least that is the norm in the UK.