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Salaam/peace

Religious Freedom in the Eyes of Shari`ah

It was in 622 AC, that Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, introduced the Charter of Madinah, which in fact was the first ever written constitution in the history of mankind.

It gave the people the right of protection, security, peace and justice; not only to Muslims, but also to the Jews who lived in the City of Madinah, as well as the allies of Jews who were non-Muslims.

** It recognized Jews as a separate political and ethnic minority, and allowed them to practice their religion quite freely**.

In fact, Jews were considered on an equal bases as Muslims under the Islamic State.

…The Jews were given a free hand to practice their faith.

The interesting right that the Jews and the Christians were given because they were the main minority living under the Islamic state, was their right to have a holiday, the Jews on a Saturday, and the Christians on a Sunday.

** Interestingly enough, in many Western countries, up till now, Muslims are still struggling to have Friday as their public holiday.**

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503545930&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar

related link :

Jizyah and non-Muslim Minorities

…When the people of Hirah contributed the sum agreed upon, they expressly mentioned that they paid this jizyah on condition that ‘the Muslims and their leader protect us from those who would oppress us, whether they be Muslims or others.”

In his covenant with the people of certain cities near Al-Haira, Khalid ibn Al-Walid, may Allah be pleased with him, recorded: “If we are able to protect you, we deserve the collection of jizyah; otherwise, we shall not offer you protection.”

The seriousness with which the Muslims took their covenants with the non-Muslims is well illustrated by the following incident. During the reign of the second caliph, `Umar Ibn Al-Khattab, the Roman emperor Heraclius raised a huge army to repel the Muslim forces.

It was thus incumbent upon the Muslims to concentrate their efforts on the battle.

When the commander of Muslims, Abu ‘Ubaydah (may Allah be pleased with him) heard this news, he wrote to his officials in all conquered cities in Syria and ordered them to return the jizyah which had been levied in those cities.

He also addressed the public saying; “We are returning your money because we know that the enemy has gathered troops. By the terms stipulated in the covenant, you have obliged us to protect you.

However, since we are now unable to fulfill these conditions, we have returned to you what you paid to us. We shall abide by the terms agreed upon in the covenant, if Allah helps us to rout the enemy.”

Thus, a huge amount was taken form the state treasury and returned to the Christians, making them very happy. They prayed for and blessed the Muslim commanders.

They exclaimed, “May Allah help you to overcome your enemies and return you to us safely. If the enemy were in your place, they would never have returned anything to us, but rather they would have taken all our remaining property.”

The jizyah was also imposed on Muslim men who could afford to buy their way out of military service.

If a Christian group elected to serve in the state’s military forces, it was exempted from the jizyah.

Historical examples of this abound: the Jarajima, a Christian tribe living near Antioch (now in Turkey), by undertaking to support Muslims and to fight on the battle front, did not have to pay the jizyah and were entitled to a share of the captured booty.

When the Islamic conquests reached northern Persia in 22 A.H., a similar covenant was established with a tribe living on the boundaries of those territories.

They were consequently exempted from jizyah in view of their military services.

more :

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544994
 
Why do you underline things about the Christian groups serving in the Muslim armies being exempted from Jizyah? This is not an example of mercy on the part of the Muslims. Christians were essentially told “come fight with us in conquest, or else pay an unreasonable and humiliating tax for protection FROM US”. That is not good. If I go into your home and tell you “come, I am taking the local mosque. You can either come with me or you can stay here and pay me money so that I don’t come for your home after taking the mosque”, I think you would rightly tell me that you refuse to do either. This is an unreasonable set of conditions. If Christians joined you due to the unfair economic condition you set upon them, that is one thing, but it does not at all prove anything but manipulation and a lust for power on the part of the Muslims. For shame.
 
Salaam/peace

Religious Freedom in the Eyes of Shari`ah

It was in 622 AC, that Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, introduced the Charter of Madinah, which in fact was the first ever written constitution in the history of mankind.

It gave the people the right of protection, security, peace and justice; not only to Muslims, but also to the Jews who lived in the City of Madinah, as well as the allies of Jews who were non-Muslims.

** It recognized Jews as a separate political and ethnic minority, and allowed them to practice their religion quite freely**.

In fact, Jews were considered on an equal bases as Muslims under the Islamic State.

…The Jews were given a free hand to practice their faith.

The interesting right that the Jews and the Christians were given because they were the main minority living under the Islamic state, was their right to have a holiday, the Jews on a Saturday, and the Christians on a Sunday.

** Interestingly enough, in many Western countries, up till now, Muslims are still struggling to have Friday as their public holiday.**

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503545930&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar

related link :

Jizyah and non-Muslim Minorities

…When the people of Hirah contributed the sum agreed upon, they expressly mentioned that they paid this jizyah on condition that ‘the Muslims and their leader protect us from those who would oppress us, whether they be Muslims or others.”

In his covenant with the people of certain cities near Al-Haira, Khalid ibn Al-Walid, may Allah be pleased with him, recorded: “If we are able to protect you, we deserve the collection of jizyah; otherwise, we shall not offer you protection.”

The seriousness with which the Muslims took their covenants with the non-Muslims is well illustrated by the following incident. During the reign of the second caliph, `Umar Ibn Al-Khattab, the Roman emperor Heraclius raised a huge army to repel the Muslim forces.

It was thus incumbent upon the Muslims to concentrate their efforts on the battle.

When the commander of Muslims, Abu ‘Ubaydah (may Allah be pleased with him) heard this news, he wrote to his officials in all conquered cities in Syria and ordered them to return the jizyah which had been levied in those cities.

He also addressed the public saying; “We are returning your money because we know that the enemy has gathered troops. By the terms stipulated in the covenant, you have obliged us to protect you.

However, since we are now unable to fulfill these conditions, we have returned to you what you paid to us. We shall abide by the terms agreed upon in the covenant, if Allah helps us to rout the enemy.”

Thus, a huge amount was taken form the state treasury and returned to the Christians, making them very happy. They prayed for and blessed the Muslim commanders.

They exclaimed, “May Allah help you to overcome your enemies and return you to us safely. If the enemy were in your place, they would never have returned anything to us, but rather they would have taken all our remaining property.”

The jizyah was also imposed on Muslim men who could afford to buy their way out of military service.

If a Christian group elected to serve in the state’s military forces, it was exempted from the jizyah.

Historical examples of this abound: the Jarajima, a Christian tribe living near Antioch (now in Turkey), by undertaking to support Muslims and to fight on the battle front, did not have to pay the jizyah and were entitled to a share of the captured booty.

When the Islamic conquests reached northern Persia in 22 A.H., a similar covenant was established with a tribe living on the boundaries of those territories.

They were consequently exempted from jizyah in view of their military services.

more :

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544994
charter of madinah is far from being the first of any constitution

621 BC ( yes, BC - 1200 years before muhammad ) - Draco wrote the laws of the city-state of Athens

594 BC - Solon, the ruler of Athens, created the new Solonian Constitution

508 BC - Cleisthenes again reformed the Athenian constitution and set it on a democratic footing

350 BC- Aristotle was one of the first in recorded history to make a formal distinction between ordinary law and constitutional law, establishing ideas of constitution and constitutionalism, and attempting to classify different forms of constitutional government.

indians also was way ahead

and many, many, many more …

i think the charter of madinah was in the weak era and its basicly a peace treaty / seize fire between warring tribes - where muhammad was the neutral side and asked to intervene

" The document was drawn up with the explicit concern of bringing to an end the bitter inter tribal fighting between the clans of the Aws (Aus) and Khazraj within Medina. "

ofcourse, muhammads approach changed when he has power

you’re quotes seems to say, for pragmatic reasons the severity of the jizya can be played

i think it shouldnt exist in the first place

and many of the rights of non-muslims in a muslim country are limited or non-existent, so ?

would you like me to share my personal experiences as a citizen of the biggest muslim country ?

by the way, muslims have more rights in western countries than non-muslims in muslim countries
 
You are discussing jizya simply from the “money” point of view but you are forgetting it is humiliation for not being a follower of Muhammad.
 
**Hello wa assalaamu’alaykum wa rahmatuAllahi wa baraktu,
With no desire to cause offence I don’t believe he did - the Q’uran contradicts itslef numerous times and often used concepts from Judaism and Christianity without showing real understanding of them. Muhammed was merely a man and for me the Q’uran is nothing more than his personal revelations. It is a holy book to Muslims so I would not physically harm it out of common coutresy but for me it is just a book, of no more or less value than say Mark Twains ‘Huckleberry Finn’.
Belief is not a contradiction.

Mohammad sallaAllahu 'alayhi wa sellem, Never attributed himself to writing the Quran, never claimed it was from him. So these words are mute.

It is not only a book for Muslims. It is the last revelation sent down from our Creator. God claims it, no man author ever has.

americanrevert

**
 
How is it not only a book for Muslims? That makes no sense. It is the book of Islam! Of course it is only for Muslims. Others may read it, learn from it what Islam is about, enjoy it, whatever…it is still only for Muslims, because by definition only they will believe in it.
 
**Hello wa assalaamu’alaykum wa rahmatuAllahi wa baraktu,

Belief is not a contradiction.**
Does this mean that your faith in Mohammad makes you blind to all the apparent contradictions in the Koran? :rolleyes:
**
Mohammad sallaAllahu 'alayhi wa sellem, Never attributed himself to writing the Quran, never claimed it was from him. So these words are mute.**
He did not attribute the Koran to himself simply because he attributed it to God almighty. LOL Mohammad was not an idiot to cast himself into fire. He simply lied about the author of the Koran.
**
It is not only a book for Muslims. It is the last revelation sent down from our Creator. God claims it, no man author ever has.
americanrevert
**
Islam is universal?? :confused:

Is this why the Koran designates itself as a lecture in clear Arabic sent to a folk to whom no warner was sent before? Is this why the Koran repeatedly says Allah gave his book in Arabic so that people could read and understand it easily??? WOW!
 
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peace & blessings of God be upon you

Tarawih Around the World

http://www.islamonline.net/English/Multimedia/Library/NewsAnalyses/2008/09/images/03-09.jpg

http://www.islamonline.net/English/Multimedia/Library/NewsAnalyses/2008/09/images/03-11.jpg

http://www.islamonline.net/English/Multimedia/Library/NewsAnalyses/2008/09/images/03-01.jpg

As Muslims from around the world observe Ramadan, Tarawih, the special nightly prayer, takes a central stage in their spiritual activities during the holy fasting month.

Men, women and children compete in joining Tarawih, which is held following `Isha’ prayer.

islamonline.net/English/Multimedia/Library/NewsAnalyses/2008/09/03.shtml
 
Salaam/peace

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
… Is this why the Koran repeatedly says Allah gave his book in Arabic so that people could read and understand it easily??? WOW!
If We had made it a Qur’an in a **foreign tongue **they would have said,

'Why have its Signs not been made plain?

What! A foreign language for an Arab?’

(Surah Fussilat: 44)

All holy books revealed to the Prophets (pbut) in the languages they spoke. Bible was not revealed in Eng to Jesus (p).

Prophet Muhammed (p) was an Arab ; so naturally Quran was revealed in Arabic but message was for all.

… This is nothing but **a reminder for all human **beings. (Surat al-Muddaththir: 31)

… But it is nothing less than a reminder for all the Worlds.

(Surat al-Qalam: 52)
 
**Hello,
How is it not only a book for Muslims? That makes no sense. It is the book of Islam! Of course it is only for Muslims. Others may read it, learn from it what Islam is about, enjoy it, whatever…it is still only for Muslims, because by definition only they will believe in it.
No, it is for mankind. When accepting it and believing it, inside the message of Allah, you will find guidance of how to live your life according to how Allah wants you to live it.

Mankind it is a message, a warning, the last revelation. So you think…well, I guess I can’t post that question about Jesus sent to only Israel cuz then it would contradict the “to all nations” that is in there as well (the bible)…so guess that throws that out the window.

God’s messages were sent to the Jews…all of them. Jesus was also sent to the Jewish tribes. He did not bring Christianity into the making. He was givin a book that taught the oneness of God just like the other main messengers were given…but yet again, the Jews were misguided and corrupt and refused it…so naturally they were lost yet again…they killed prophets in the past as also stated in the Quran…nothin new to them.

God said in His Last Message to MANKIND, that this is His Last Message to the world, to mankind and the unseen. The FINAL MESSAGE. Enough of the past on how it was perceived and dealt with. We have now the last message and it is preserved by Allah Himself.

So, you what do you claim the Bible is only for Christians? eh?

Quran: 2:84

Say (O Muhammad SAW): “We believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismail (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Yaqoob (Jacob) and Al-Asbat (the twelve sons of Yaqoob (Jacob)) and what was given to Moosa (Moses), Iesa (Jesus) and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allah) we have submitted (in Islam).”

قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ​

americanrevert**
 
No, it is for mankind. When accepting it and believing it, inside the message of Allah, you will find guidance of how to live your life according to how Allah wants you to live it.
“When accepting it and believing it” is the main point. I don’t believe it, so I don’t see anything in the Quran for me other than humiliation, degredation, and a lot of claims that I don’t believe God would make, or a prophet would make.
Mankind it is a message, a warning, the last revelation.
Revelation? You mean like Revelation 22:18-19? I think those verses might tell you what will happen to those who add or take away from the Word of God, as with another book perhaps…
So you think…well, I guess I can’t post that question about Jesus sent to only Israel cuz then it would contradict the “to all nations” that is in there as well (the bible)…so guess that throws that out the window.
You’re darn right that this is thrown out the window. Why can’t you accept the idea that Jesus was sent both to the lost sheep of Israel AND the whole world? I don’t understand why you have a problem with this. Didn’t Muhammad preach at different times in both Medina and Mecca, and then his disciples to other places such as Ethiopia, Palestine, etc.?
God’s messages were sent to the Jews…all of them. Jesus was also sent to the Jewish tribes. He did not bring Christianity into the making. He was givin a book that taught the oneness of God just like the other main messengers were given…but yet again, the Jews were misguided and corrupt and refused it…so naturally they were lost yet again…they killed prophets in the past as also stated in the Quran…nothin new to them.
Er…so you hate Jews, or what? I don’t really get the point of that paragraph.
So, you what do you claim the Bible is only for Christians? eh
I think that the Bible is there for all to hear and read the truth of its message, and the vision of God contained therein. This is no different than what I have written about the Quran, in as far as its believers are concerned. And just as I’ve written about the Quran, the Bible is useful for non-believers to explain to them what Christianity is all about, so that they may accept it or reject it depending on how they exercise God’s gift of free will. The Bible is NOT for people of any religion who read it in such a way that only exists for them so that it may conform to their personal feelings. This goes for Muslims and any other non-Christians, as well as sola scriptura Protestants who follow the deceitfulness of their own hearts in violation of the Bible’s own words.
Quran: 2:84
Say (O Muhammad SAW): “We believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismail (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Yaqoob (Jacob) and Al-Asbat (the twelve sons of Yaqoob (Jacob)) and what was given to Moosa (Moses), Iesa (Jesus) and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allah) we have submitted (in Islam)”
This is a lie so long as Islam insists that the past scriptures have been corrupted while simultaneously being unable to prove its claims without referring back to itself.
 
**HELLO,
“When accepting it and believing it” is the main point. I don’t believe it, so I don’t see anything in the Quran for me other than humiliation, degredation, and a lot of claims that I don’t believe God would make, or a prophet would make.
That is your prerogative, but it doesn’t mean still it was only sent for Muslims. No one is forcing your to believe, but you will be held accountable for your disbelief. Am just a warner.
Revelation? You mean like Revelation 22:18-19? I think those verses might tell you what will happen to those who add or take away from the Word of God, as with another book perhaps…
So, again, not Jesus’ words but who’s again? oh you mean the book of the dream~the last book of the Bible~the dream. Can you rely on a dream with no eye witnesses to verify the source? People could say that he could have ate too much before sleepin eh? Where is your proof that God said it? So the author of the book of revelation was a messenger …another one?
You’re darn right that this is thrown out the window. Why can’t you accept the idea that Jesus was sent both to the lost sheep of Israel AND the whole world? I don’t understand why you have a problem with this. Didn’t Muhammad preach at different times in both Medina and Mecca, and then his disciples to other places such as Ethiopia, Palestine, etc.?
Because the word ONLY is being used and then it becomes a contradiction. It’s your bible not my words. Mohammad sallaAllahu 'alayhi wa sellem, never faltered in saying the truth in any city he ventured to and fro. Prophet Lot, the nephew of Abraham also preached in the lands of sham etc…but they never faltered in untruth…same message, same God, ONE GOD.
I think that the Bible is there for all to hear and read the truth of its message, and the vision of God contained therein. This is no different than what I have written about the Quran, in as far as its believers are concerned. And just as I’ve written about the Quran, the Bible is useful for non-believers to explain to them what Christianity is all about, so that they may accept it or reject it depending on how they exercise God’s gift of free will. The Bible is NOT for people of any religion who read it in such a way that only exists for them so that it may conform to their personal feelings. This goes for Muslims and any other non-Christians, as well as sola scriptura Protestants who follow the deceitfulness of their own hearts in violation of the Bible’s own words
.

So, your claim it is for everyone…so the Quran is for Mankind…yall have the church to explain what Christianity is about. Jesus will have taught the oneness of God like he quoted in your Bible. Personal feelings…hmmm how can you read a book such as the Bible and not make comments of its authenticity…ESPECIALLY what is inside the old
testament! :eek: well, other Christians could say the same to you eh?
This is a lie so long as Islam insists that the past scriptures have been corrupted while simultaneously being unable to prove its claims without referring back to itself.
Quran has proven true. It is from yall’s books that you can’t prove its authenticity on many counts and levels! I ask you, who wrote matthew, can’t answer, I ask you where is the Gospel according to Jesus, you don’t have it, I ask you how can God die, you say he didn’t but then you claim that Jesus is God incarnate and died…it is yall’s mysteries that cannot be explained. Nothin to do with Islam’s proofs.

Face it, you cannot sit there and say Islam is false and based on incorrectness when you can’t explain your own book’s origin. Can’t happen.

americanrevert**
 
Salaam/peace

If We had made it a Qur’an in a **foreign tongue **they would have said,

'Why have its Signs not been made plain?

What! A foreign language for an Arab?’

(Surah Fussilat: 44)

All holy books revealed to the Prophets (pbut) in the languages they spoke. Bible was not revealed in Eng to Jesus (p).
No book was revealed to Jesus in any language. Jesus is the eternal WORD and WISDOM of God expressed in human flesh.
Prophet Muhammed (p) was an Arab ; so naturally Quran was revealed in Arabic but message was for all.

… This is nothing but **a reminder for all human **beings. (Surat al-Muddaththir: 31)

… But it is nothing less than a reminder for all the Worlds.

(Surat al-Qalam: 52)
How can the Koran be a BOOK for the mankind when Allah claims to have revealed it in Arabic for a purpose:

Surah 43:2-3
By the Scripture which maketh plain, Lo! We have appointed it a Lecture, in Arabic that haply ye may understand.

According to this verse, the Koran was (supposedly) revealed in Arabic so that Arabs could understand it. This means the Koran does not care if non-Arabs read or understand its message. This is also clear in many verses addressing only Arabs.
… This is nothing but **a reminder for all human **beings. (Surat al-Muddaththir: 31)

… But it is nothing less than a reminder for all the Worlds.
Contradictorily, some Koran verses overtly deny the traditional Islamic teaching that Islam is for the whole mankind:

Surah 43:44
And lo! it is in truth a Reminder for thee and for thy folk; and ye will be questioned.

Surah 42:7
And thus We have inspired in thee a Lecture in Arabic, that thou mayst warn the mother-town and those around it, and mayst warn of a day of assembling whereof there is no doubt.

(The mother town is Mecca. Mohammad is supposedly given a book only to warn the people living in Mecca and in the neighbourhood).
 
**Hello,

No, it is for mankind. When accepting it and believing it, inside the message of Allah, you will find guidance of how to live your life according to how Allah wants you to live it.**
No, it is only for Mohammad’s folk (Surah 43:44) and especially for the Arabs living in Mecca and the surrounding area (Surah 42:7). You should read your scripture more carefully before getting into futile debates with us.
**
Mankind it is a message, a warning, the last revelation. So you think…well, I guess I can’t post that question about Jesus sent to only Israel cuz then it would contradict the “to all nations” that is in there as well (the bible)…so guess that throws that out the window.**
When I deny your purely subjective designation of the Koran as a divine revelation, your book suddenly turns into a man-made book, a fabrication with no value whereas Jesus’ message becomes the final and perfect revelation. When will you stop presenting your personal comments and beliefs as facts??

We do not deny that Jesus was sent to Israel, dear revert. We know that Jesus was born as a Jew under the Mosaic Law and accomplished His prophetic ministry in Israel. However, the commandment Jesus gave to His apostles after His resurrection by no means contradicts this fact since Jesus’ Gospel/message is for the whole mankind. Everyone who believes in Jesus, who died for the whole mankind, is saved.

Accordingly, it is irrational for Muslims to claim that Mohammad, an Arab who could not read or write even in his mother tongue, was sent as a messenger to mankind! How can Mohammad, who never preached the Koran out of Arabia, can be a prophet for the mankind??? The Koran was imposed as a book on non-Arabs only during Omar’s reign through conquests, years after Mohammad’s death!
**
God’s messages were sent to the Jews…all of them. Jesus was also sent to the Jewish tribes. He did not bring Christianity into the making. He was givin a book that taught the oneness of God just like the other main messengers were given…but yet again, the Jews were misguided and corrupt and refused it…so naturally they were lost yet again…they killed prophets in the past as also stated in the Quran…nothin new to them. **
I have a few questions:

1) Why did God insist on sending His supposed books only to Jews no matter how Jews allegedly succeeded in corrupting His message?

2) Why did God (allegedly) change His mind all of a sudden after Jesus’ mission and send His so-called last book to a non-Jewish and pagan nation?

3) Why couldn’t God think of preserving His message (books) before He supposedly sent Mohammad? What prevented God from preserving His books until Mohammad’s era???
**
God said in His Last Message to MANKIND**, that this is His Last Message to the world, to mankind and the unseen. The FINAL MESSAGE. Enough of the past on how it was perceived and dealt with. We have now the last message and it is preserved by Allah Himself.
This means Allah suposedly came to His senses, finally found out His mistake, and learned how to correct it only when Mohammad was allegedly made a prophet? LOL

However, his mistakes still remain since three of his supposed revelations do not conform to his so-called final revelation and many people are misled. 😃
**
Quran: 2:84**

Say (O Muhammad SAW): “We believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismail (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Yaqoob (Jacob) and Al-Asbat (the twelve sons of Yaqoob (Jacob)) and what was given to Moosa (Moses), Iesa (Jesus) and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allah) we have submitted (in Islam).”

قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ​

americanrevert
Each time you quote this verse, you pathetically contradict yourself and undermine your very theories. LOL Although your scripture asks you not to distinguish one revelation from another, you desperately set the Koran apart as the only preserved and authentic word of God different from all the others.
 
**HELLO,

So, again, not Jesus’ words but who’s again? oh you mean the book of the dream~the last book of the Bible~the dream. Can you rely on a dream with no eye witnesses to verify the source? People could say that he could have ate too much before sleepin eh? Where is your proof that God said it? So the author of the book of revelation was a messenger …another one?**
It is uncanny that you discard the Book of Revelation as an unreliable dream whilst you hurry to embrace the absurd fantasies of a pagan dreamer of the desert. LOL

Where is your proof that Mohammad received the Koran from God? Where were his eyewitnesses? Would you believe that a book was given me from God if I simply added into it the sentence “This is a book revealed to my dear messenger Angelos from me, the God Almighty”???

About the word messenger, every Christian (even former ones) know that Jesus sent His disciples as messengers to the whole world. Since you have never been a Christian, your ignorance can be pardoned easily.

Nevertheless, your Koran describes itself as a book by a NOBLE MESSENGER. Who is the referent of this adjectival clause? Mohammad?? Muslim scholars contend the referent is angel Gabriel. So Gabriel is another messenger coming after/before Mohammad???
**
Because the word ONLY is being used and then it becomes a contradiction. It’s your bible not my words. Mohammad sallaAllahu 'alayhi wa sellem, never faltered in saying the truth in any city he ventured to and fro. Prophet Lot, the nephew of Abraham also preached in the lands of sham etc…but they never faltered in untruth…same message, same God, ONE GOD**.
Your explanation is a fallacious one as I still wonder why God repetitively failed to establish His true religion and preserve His message on earth until Mohammad’s period if I consider your suppositions plausible for a second???
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So, your claim it is for everyone…so the Quran is for Mankind…yall have the church to explain what Christianity is about. Jesus will have taught the oneness of God like he quoted in your Bible. Personal feelings…hmmm how can you read a book such as the Bible and not make comments of its authenticity…ESPECIALLY what is inside the old
testament! :eek: well, other Christians could say the same to you eh?**
The Koran says it is only for Arabs (Surah 43:44, Surah 28:46). How can you deny your scripture if you are a true Muslim? LOL

What is wrong with the Old Testament? The Koran mostly adopts from the Torah and tries to adapt its tenets to Mohammad’s man-made ideology. Mohammad’s scribes were such bunglers that they also added into the Koran the Jewish fables and legends, which they mistakenly regarded as a part of the Jewish Bible.
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Quran has proven true. It is from yall’s books that you can’t prove its authenticity on many counts and levels! I ask you, who wrote matthew, can’t answer, I ask you where is the Gospel according to Jesus, you don’t have it, I ask you how can God die, you say he didn’t but then you claim that Jesus is God incarnate and died…it is yall’s mysteries that cannot be explained. Nothin to do with Islam’s proofs.**
According to your comments, the Koran is not a reliable book, so it must be discarded as absurdity. It cannot decide how to deal with the former revelations of old. In one place it asks Muslims to consider all of Allah’s book equal (divine and authentic), and then suddenly forgets about this commandment when it allegedly proves that the other books are not authentic. The Koran is very much like a man that cuts the branch he steps on. LOL
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Face it, you cannot sit there and say Islam is false and based on incorrectness when you can’t explain your own book’s origin. Can’t happen.
americanrevert**
Face it, you cannot sit there and say Christianity is false and based on your incorrectness when you can’t explain your own book’s origin. Can’t happen.
 
oh you mean the book of the dream~the last book of the Bible~the dream. Can you rely on a dream with no eye witnesses to verify the source?
If I take your logic that it is a dream, then there is one logical question: How can a dream have eye-witnesses? That’s not how dreams work. Furthermore, if this is the road you wish to travel, I might ask you about Muhammad’s supposed “revelations” - what eye-witnesses were there of those? How can we verify the truth of their origin and content from unbaised sources?
So the author of the book of revelation was a messenger …another one?
I suppose you could say that, if you want to use that word. Remember that Christians do not believe that Jesus was a mere prophet or messenger, so there is no conflict for us to say that a book like Revelation is a message of sorts to its readers, though we would argue that the author of the book of Revelations is a conduit of God’s word, not violating it by coming after Jesus to abrogate His holy Word, as Muhammad has attempted to do with the Quran.
Because the word ONLY is being used and then it becomes a contradiction. It’s your bible not my words.
You’re right, this does require some explanation, and as usual you would do your arguments well to read the verse in context, along with some Catholic commentary on it. I would suggest you start with this, excerpted from this page:

*Jesus said, “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.” Most Catholic biblical scholars, following the teaching of the early Church fathers, agree that the “other sheep” are the gentiles, to whom the gospel was sent after the Jews rejected Christ (Rom. 11:11-12).

During his public ministry Jesus confined his proclamation of the gospel to the Jews (Matt. 10:5-6, 15:24), and initially this remained the focus of the apostles’ preaching, although Jesus had foretold that the gospel would eventually be carried to “all nations” (Matt. 28:19, Acts 1:8). This opening up of God’s blessing even to Gentiles was foretold in the Old Testament (Ps. 2:7; Isa. 2:2-6).

Paul explained this to Gentile Christians: “Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands–remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ” (Eph. 2:11-13; cf. Rom. 3:22; Gal. 3:27-28). *
So, your claim it is for everyone…so the Quran is for Mankind…
Please re-read my reply more carefully. The argument I am making is not exclusive to Christianity or Islam, and is inclusive of both. Both books provide the truth of the religion of their believers, and are open to all (or would be, in an ideal world not plagued by Arab supremacist perversions of God), but because people are free to reject them, I feel it would be wrong to say they are for all. You do not have an equal claim to the Bible as I do, since you believe it is just a book (and a corrupt one at that), whereas I know it to be the holy and eternal word of God Almighty. This is why I and others continue to insist that you not use the Bible to bolster the Quranic claims - not only because the claims of the two books are mutually exclusive, but because we have vastly different understandings of the meanings and sometimes even the literal text of its contents. You have shown yourself to be willing to lie about the Bible for your own selfish, prideful reasons. I won’t say “Oh, okay…you are free to spread lies about the Bible and the Messiah based on your self-serving interpretation; after all, the Bible is for you as much as me!” No. I would be less intolerant if you accepted it as being the Word of Christianity (I will stop short of saying that you must accept it as the Word of God, as well, because I can deal with the fact that not everyone agrees with my religion), and not the crutch or buttress of Islam, but I am not naive enough to think that this will ever happen. I’ve read too many of your posts.
yall have the church to explain what Christianity is about
Yes, thank GOD for that! Why shouldn’t it be so? The faith predated (and compiled!) the Bible, so what is wrong with this fact? Understand that we Catholics and Orthodox do not for a second deny or try to de-emphasize the Bible. We just don’t pretend as though Christianity is entirely contained within the Bible, like some other Christian communities claim. That is a foolish claim, and falls into the huge logic trap that is opened when we try to consider how the Apostles could have preached the faith with such divine sanction as they did had they relied on a book to draw their inspiration from! Christianity is a living, breathing faith, not the words of one or a million books.

Tell me, when someone wishes to convert to Islam, are they simply given a copy of the Quran and told to go away and study it, or are they told to attend the mosque, bring questions before the Imam or another approved person at an appropriate time, and eventually to utter the shahada before the whole community of believers in the mosque? 🙂
Personal feelings…hmmm how can you read a book such as the Bible and not make comments of its authenticity…ESPECIALLY what is inside the old
testament! :eek:
I don’t know what kind of point you’re trying to make, but it is irrelevent anyway since NO Christian anywhere, of any denomination, has this problem with the idea of “authenticity” that Muslims apparently have. We know that the Bible is the AUTHENTIC WORD OF GOD. We believe it down to the very marrow of our bones. Your argument regarding this point will win you no converts. It’s best to earn your “Kuffar Konverter” merit badge by some other means, ma’am…
well, other Christians could say the same to you eh?
Other Christians could say what to me? I don’t understand this sentence.
Quran has proven true.
Really? Where? I bet the proof you will present (if you will finally present any proof at all) will be from the Quran, the Hadith, or some other Islamic source. Too bad none of these are reliable with regard to this claim, for obvious reasons.
Gospel according to Jesus, you don’t have it,
Why would we? The Bible is not Jesus’ autobiography.
I ask you how can God die, you say he didn’t but then you claim that Jesus is God incarnate and died…it is yall’s mysteries that cannot be explained.
Do you understand the meaning of the word “resurrection”? This explains how Jesus can be crucified and die, and rise again on the third day in confirmation of the scriptures. As we say in the Nicene Creed:

“I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. God of God, light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.I confess one baptism for the remission of sins. And I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.”

I have bolded the part that is most closely connected to your objection.
Face it, you cannot sit there and say Islam is false and based on incorrectness when you can’t explain your own book’s origin. Can’t happen.
You think so, yet here we are. :rolleyes:
 
The church fellows are anxious to prove that Quran was for Muslims. How absurd ! There were no muslims around when it was revealed. And the book itself is claiming that it is for all mnkind for ever.
 
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