Ask an Anglican/Episcopalian

[David_Zampino]

Was your 2004 trip a success? Did we behave ourselves?

It was! It was primarily a study trip. I spent a few days in London, primarily at the Lambeth Palace Library (and staying in a 1-star hotel near Paddington Station.) Then, it was off to Oxford for several days where I stayed at St. Stephen’s House and did research at Pusey House Library (and enjoyed several meals at the Eagle and Child Pub!) I also paid my respects at the Tolkien gravesite. Then it was off to Lampeter, Wales for more research and a lovely B and B. And a visit to Cardiff and St. David’s Cathedral. Then, back to London and off home.

We did behave ourselves, though we did enjoy more than one pint of bitter! And a Cuban cigar (unavailable in the US!)

 

[Picky_Picky]

It was! It was primarily a study trip. I spent a few days in London, primarily at the Lambeth Palace Library (and staying in a 1-star hotel near Paddington Station.) Then, it was off to Oxford for several days where I stayed at St. Stephen’s House and did research at Pusey House Library (and enjoyed several meals at the Eagle and Child Pub!) I also paid my respects at the Tolkien gravesite. Then it was off to Lampeter, Wales for more research and a lovely B and B. And a visit to Cardiff and St. David’s Cathedral. Then, back to London and off home.

We did behave ourselves, though we did enjoy more than one pint of bitter! And a Cuban cigar (unavailable in the US!)

I dread to think what a 1-star near Paddington must have been like, but the rest of it sounds good.

 

[GKC]

You realize, Mr. Sulu, that my agents would avenge my death. And some of them are Vulcans.

More a Turtledove fan, actually. Though the alternate universe explanation is the only thing that (marginally) gets me to watch the re-booted Star Trek franchise.

GKC

 

[David_Zampino]

I dread to think what a 1-star near Paddington must have been like, but the rest of it sounds good.

It was a street of row-homes (at least, that’s what we would call them in Baltimore) many of which had been turned into mini-hotels of about 8 rooms. Each had a self-contained modular “bathroom” a bed and a TV. Mine provided tea and toast and yogurt and cheese in the morning. Not something I’d take my wife to – but for a graduate student on a tight budget, it really wasn’t bad.

 

[Picky_Picky]

It was a street of row-homes (at least, that’s what we would call them in Baltimore) many of which had been turned into mini-hotels of about 8 rooms. Each had a self-contained modular “bathroom” a bed and a TV. Mine provided tea and toast and yogurt and cheese in the morning. Not something I’d take my wife to – but for a graduate student on a tight budget, it really wasn’t bad.

Glad to hear it. And a pleasant enough walk to Lambeth Bridge, I suppose. Is the palace library splendid? Did you keep tripping over Rowan?

 

[Peter_J]

Have you tried the similar-looking Christian Forum?

Well, I’ve spent a lot of time on the “OC” Orthodox forum. Not saying the experience has been 100% positive, but I’m glad to have gained the perspective of the “outsider” on a religion forum.

 

[Peter_J]

I understand why there may be a limited amount of love for Bishop Katherine, and I suppose I see why there would have been shakes of the head over deciding the PB should be also the Primate, but if that continues as you predict and the PB’s role becomes that of metropolitan (the National Cathedral, presumably) and even Archbishop … I understand that would be a change from the way TEC came about, but what would be wrong with it? Why would a traditional Anglican not like a hierarchy that was constructed in a traditional Anglican way?

So I guess a country’s president could declare himself/herself a monarch, since that’s traditional and since some other countries have monarchs?

 

[jimkhong]

Useful clarification.

GKC

I agree. Thanks, Picky.

 

[jimkhong]

Makes me grateful for Archbishops Justin and John over here…

At least their role are clear in the practice and rules of the CoE.

I understand that TEC PB has exercised sacramental authority (I am not sure what this means or I may have misremembered the quote) and conducted supervisory visits like a metropolitan. Is this in line with TEC rules? I thought the TEC PB’s role is adminstrative.

 

[jimkhong]

Because the Episcopal Church came into existence in a society that lacked the traditional structures of European Christendom, it was able to reproduce the “basic” structure of bishops in communion with each other, and like many Episcopalians I regard that as a good thing.

I thought TEC (in its earliest form) did replicate the structure of the COE. The current structure is largely a reaction after the American Revolution as most bishops were loyalists.

Edwin, I like the points in your post. Make great sense and good to know the Romanist structure do have value after all.

 

[jimkhong]

I find the idea of the PB not having a diocese just bizarre. It’s an abuse of the episcopal office. In those provinces where an Primate is elected from among the diocesans (rather than ex officio, as in the ancient provinces of Canterbury and York), such as Scotland, Wales, and Papua New Guinea, he keeps his See and can be seen as acting as primus inter pares. One diocesan bishop with a special responsibility to confirm his brethren. The current American system seems to embody almost all of the negative aspects of the Papal office, without any of the benefits to communion…

I suppose if the Episcopal Church wanted some kind of primacy on a regional scale, like the ancient provinces of the Western Church, could it not be the case that the bishops of each State either elected a metropolitan, or that the bishop based in the State capital was so ex officio? It seems surprising that, if there really is such need for a developed hierarchy, this wasn’t the first step…

I noticed that for a long time, TEC had very small dioceses and each bishop represents less than a quarter of the average ratio in the Anglican Communion. For instance, TEC has three times the bishops in Church of Kenya with only one third the members. I know it has caused grumblings during the past Lambeth Conferences.

Does the fact that there are many bishops with few members (ie., clout) in TEC creates a vacumn at the top? Did this have a bearing in the development of TEC’s ecclesialogy and polity which seems so marked different from the rest of the Anglican Communion?

 

[jimkhong]

Actually, the ACNA is fairly large and growing – and is recognized by a number of Provinces as being the Anglican representative in the United States and not TEC.

So TEC and ACNA are competing to be recognised by the Anglican Communion? A bit like PRC and Taiwan competing to be recognised as representing China (you can have ambassdor in one country or the other but not both).

 

[GKC]

So TEC and ACNA are competing to be recognised by the Anglican Communion? A bit like PRC and Taiwan competing to be recognised as representing China (you can have ambassdor in one country or the other but not both).

As to the rival status of ACNA and TEC, for the affections of teh Communion, that was part of what I was trying to convey above.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I thought TEC (in its earliest form) did replicate the structure of the COE. The current structure is largely a reaction after the American Revolution as most bishops were loyalists.

Edwin, I like the points in your post. Make great sense and good to know the Romanist structure do have value after all.

TEC didn’t exist, prior to the Revolution. The colonies were under the purview of the Bishop of London. And the Church in this hemisphere was the CoE, in this hemisphere. There were no bishops in the colonies.

GKC

 

[GKC]

At least their role are clear in the practice and rules of the CoE.

I understand that TEC PB has exercised sacramental authority (I am not sure what this means or I may have misremembered the quote) and conducted supervisory visits like a metropolitan. Is this in line with TEC rules? I thought the TEC PB’s role is adminstrative.

It is in line with the Machiavellian evolution of the office of the PB. Administrative, ministerial, coercive and corrective. She may, as it is understood, inhibit a bishop, at her discretion.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I noticed that for a long time, TEC had very small dioceses and each bishop represents less than a quarter of the average ratio in the Anglican Communion. For instance, TEC has three times the bishops in Church of Kenya with only one third the members. I know it has caused grumblings during the past Lambeth Conferences.

Does the fact that there are many bishops with few members (ie., clout) in TEC creates a vacumn at the top? Did this have a bearing in the development of TEC’s ecclesialogy and polity which seems so marked different from the rest of the Anglican Communion?

There is no power vacuum at the top. The top is the locus of power in TEC. The top being 815 2nd Avenue, New York, NY.

GKC

 

[Picky_Picky]

So I guess a country’s president could declare himself/herself a monarch, since that’s traditional and since some other countries have monarchs?

I’m not sure I’m very impressed with that as an analogy, but it has been done, not usually with beneficial effects. Korea springs to mind.

 

[Picky_Picky]

Unless you include elective monarchied like the US. Some of those have been reasonably successful.

 

[aidanbradypop]

So TEC and ACNA are competing to be recognised by the Anglican Communion? A bit like PRC and Taiwan competing to be recognised as representing China (you can have ambassdor in one country or the other but not both).

TEC is part of the Anglican Communion. ACNA is lead by an archbishop who is not a member of The Episcopal Church, The Church of England, the Anglican Church of Canada, or The Anglican Communion. The Episcopal Church is a member province of the worldwide Anglican Communion, serving God together and working together to bring the Reign of God on earth. ACNA is not a member of the Worldwide Anglican Communion.

I do believe the ACNA is trying to become part of the Anglican Communion but I am not sure how far along them actually are on doing that.

 

[GKC]

TEC is part of the Anglican Communion. ACNA is lead by an archbishop who is not a member of The Episcopal Church, The Church of England, the Anglican Church of Canada, or The Anglican Communion. The Episcopal Church is a member province of the worldwide Anglican Communion, serving God together and working together to bring the Reign of God on earth. ACNA is not a member of the Worldwide Anglican Communion.

I do believe the ACNA is trying to become part of the Anglican Communion but I am not sure how far along them actually are on doing that.

They are in communion with a number of Global South provinces. And a number of Global South Provinces are in impaired communion with TEC. Time will tell what the eventual shakedown will be. But the recent Global South reaction to the Pilling report, re: various sexual and gender things ongoing in the CoE,makes one ponder the fate of the Communion, not considering the TEC/ACNA question. The Communion is in a state of turmoil. Maybe.

GKC