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DharmaBum
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I have been reading this thread with interest and have been most impressed with the civil discourse and information given. To have it devolve into an accusation of apostasy seems unnecessary. These threads on Anglicanism too often turn into the same discussion. Since the OP expressed a desire to keep this type of discussion out of the thread, I will say again that it’s an uncharitable intrusion.
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jimkhong
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Cranmer is to Anglicanism what Luther is to Lutheranism. Henry VIII is to Anglicanism what Vasa was to (Swedish) Lutheranism. Probably an over-simplification but more of a sound-bite.
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GKC
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jimkhong
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Maybe not Anglicans but the Brits do. FD (for Fedei Defensor) is on all British coinage.
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GKC
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GKC
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benjohnson
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Woah!
You’ve managed to pin down one of our fine Anglican friends down to admit to a singular concrete idea?
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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GKC
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Sy_Noe
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I agree. I am neither a follower of Catholicism nor Anglican so I have no dog in the fight so to speak. But what I do when such accusations are swung at Episcopalians, is I just try to remember the source and what this forum represents. It is a Catholic answers forum supposedly where Catholics represent their faith’s beliefs. And if Catholics (or for that matter some disaffected Anglicans/Episcopalians or anyone else) believe the PB of TEC is leading TEC toward apostasy, it’s their prerogative I guess to believe so. The rest of us don’t have to believe it. I just let it, so to speak, go in one ear and out the other and such posters simply lose credibility with me. I know of too many Episcopalians who espouse what TEC teaches, who love Christ and their neighbors, who are inclusive of the marginalized in society, and who show their love in living their Christian faith everyday, to believe any differently. Peace.
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jimkhong
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I don’t know: I find it strange that some Anglicans would put forward Ignatius of Loyola for sainthood. Campion? Well, I can understand Anglicans admiring his faith to the extent of dying for it, but to be commemorated by a Church which he had opposed would probably not be the best tribute to his memory.
Maybe, Catholics and Anglicans have different views of communion of saints. We did not canonise Origen or Tertulian even though we teach them in seminaries. We are concious of where their faith is unlike ours even though there are obviously much more that is like ours. Cranmer: while I admire his courage at his last public appearance (a total miscalculation by Mary), his actions were very much driven by his belief in royal supremacy, a distinctly non-Catholic (maybe even a non-Christian) practice. I cannot put him on the same pedestal as Campion, even if I admire his courage.
It would seem to me that Anglicans would sooner see what they have in common rather than what divides. A valid viewpoint perhaps, but I would see the rest of the person, not just the part I admire.
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jimkhong
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More specifically, this thread is more about the understanding the mind of the Anglican, and not to prove one right or not. As originally offered by Dustin, and well supplemented by GKC & Picky.
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Picky_Picky
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These are really questions for the grown-ups, but I will hazard an attempt at them so they don’t get lost up-thread. Taking them the wrong way round, I think the answer to your last question is “yes”, although someone more familiar with the Episcopal Church might perhaps be best to comment on that and on your penultimate sentence; certainly Anglicans believe that there is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and that they are part of it. Your first question I will leave to my betters (although to move for a moment from TEC to the CofE, I suppose the average person in a CofE pew would say that either interpretation is possible and that, without wishing any offence, neither leads them to believe the claims of infallibility or universal jurisdiction that now are attached to the office of the Bishop of Rome).
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Novocastrian
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Bearing in mind that the church in question is the same one where the Decem Rationes were first distributed, I don’t think we need worry about people forgetting the differences!
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jimkhong
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Campion’s Church certainly remember the differences, maybe too much. The Church Campion was arguing against seem to be (from this perspective) glossing over the differences in order to emphasise what we have in common. Different ways of being church, I guess.
In the Jesuit church in Farm Street, London (British province mother church of Campion’s order), there is a little library locked up behind bars within the larger library. In that little library are old bibles and prayer books that the Jesuits smuggled into heretical Olde England. Some died to bring those books in. The Jesuits certainly have not forgotten, though no more grudges are borne today. Until you meet an old English (not Irish, etc) priest, whose family remained Catholic through the Reformation, who would point to those books and wheeze our “Our martyrs did not die for [insert whatever he didn’t like about the Church today].” Some people won’t forget or let go the hurt.
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jimkhong
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Interesting guy. Non-religious but able to articulate on behalf of Anglicans. :clapping: (no, not being sarcarstic here). Like GKC said, …
I find it very English, actuallyt: no personal theological opinion but still wants the Church of England to be the national church because that is part and parcel of being English.:juggle:
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Novocastrian
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Hard to strike a balance, I suppose. We should perhaps remember that even in Elizabeth’s time, there were those in the Church of England who were quite friendly and sympathetic towards Campion. I think in particular of Bishop Cheyney of Gloucester, who persuaded Campion to take deacon’s orders, and who Campion when he returned as a Jesuit tried to bring back into the Roman fold. In the end neither would completely compromise with the other, but it’s a far cry from the dungeon, fire and sword with which the others threatened each other.Campion’s Church certainly remember the differences, maybe too much. The Church Campion was arguing against seem to be (from this perspective) glossing over the differences in order to emphasise what we have in common. Different ways of being church, I guess.
In the Jesuit church in Farm Street, London (British province mother church of Campion’s order), there is a little library locked up behind bars. In that little library are old bibles and prayer books that the Jesuits smuggled into heretical Olde England. Some died to bring those books in. The Jesuits certainly have not forgotten, though no more grudges are borne today. Until you meet an old English (not Irish, etc) priest, whose family remained Catholic through the Reformation, who would point to those books and wheeze our “Our martyrs did not die for [insert whatever he didn’t like about the Church today].” Some people won’t forget or let go the hurt.
I’m not a relativist, and at its core neither is the Church of England, but that doesn’t mean we can’t, or shouldn’t, recognise the genuine, true faith of those with whom we are not yet in full communion. There have, of course, been times where Anglican and RC martyrs have died for the Gospel together, e.g. in Uganda.
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aidanbradypop
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Our conservative Bishop of our diocese from Oklahoma stated it so beautiful on Sunday. In his southern accent…“We all seek the Love of God and salvation through Christ. When we encounter those that do not believe the same as us, we should use our mouths to kiss them rather than hurting them.(in our case our fingers lol) We should celebrate what we have in common, Jesus Christ, and pray for what we differ on. If two Christians cannot get along, then how do we expect our non Christian brothers and sisters to set down with us?”
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