Ask an Atheist

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I have watched the video of Kenneth Miller’s talk, at least most of it and not really surprisingly, I found that proponents of Darwinian evolution like himself have a knack for story telling… and twisting their “scientific facts” quite a bit in the stories that they tell.

For instance, in explaining why human beings have 46 chromosomes instead of 48 as in the case of apes, he says that “one pair of chromosomes must have gotten fused” at some point along the evolutionary process.

Did he actually witnessed such a fusion taking place for him to be so certain of it?

And then he goes on to show a slide of such a “fused chromosome” whereby 2 centromeres would be present and also one telomere in the middle of the chromosome.

Well, sure enough there was a middle telomere in his slide of the particular human chromosome… but only ONE centromere was present and NOT two as expected.

And how does he explain this discrepancy?

Very simple actually, one of the two centromeres “must have” got deactivated and this means that only one centromere is now found in the chromosome… and thus evolution has indeed been “proven” to be true!

Is this not amazing story telling or what?? → Darwinian evolution must be true because of “scientific evidence” based entirely on “must have occured” reasoning such as this. 🤷

As for the case of the bacterial flagellum, how does he know that the type III secretory system “evolved” before the flagellum and not after as is more likely to be the case?

I think that this forum discussion does more justice to the subject than anything that I might be able to add.
I haven’t seen the lecture in question, so I don’t know what his slide projector showed or didn’t show, and it seems that your objection to this evidence is with the evidence itself rather how the evidence is portrayed on a slide projector.

The chromosome spoken of, however, is chromosome #2 and there are indeed one whole centromere and a partial one NOT in the median of the chromosome (as we see in other chromosomes). Then there are telomeres found in the meridian where on every other chromosome they are on the ends.

Occam’s Razor tells us that it is EXTREMELY LIKELY that #2 is a conjoining of two chromosomes.

There’s more evidence than just that. If we were to karyotype the #2 chromosome in humans and the #2p & #2q in apes we find the karyotype staining to be nearly identical to the respective chromosomes. (More evidence that the #2p and #2q were ancestrally stacked on one another like building blocks).
 
Pascals Wager may be based on flimly logic, but it sure got THIS atheist to think about life in a different way. It was this wager that got me to thinking about the “What IF” of God. So, flimsy or not, it sometimes does work.
 
Pascals Wager may be based on flimly logic, but it sure got THIS atheist to think about life in a different way. It was this wager that got me to thinking about the “What IF” of God. So, flimsy or not, it sometimes does work.
I just meant it’s flimsy coming from a completely neutral stance. In such a case each and every deity has an equal shot.

Now if one is to narrow down the selection, over time theism in itself may outweigh atheism (you know, as you weed out Thor, Krishna, Allah, etc for whatever reason makes their existence implausible).

In other words, if you approach Pascal’s Wager from a position that says:

“Of all the deities out there, The Christian Trinity is most plausible” then the wager might be logical because you have isolated a deity to compare to no deities.

I hope that made sense. (I need more coffee)
 
I just meant it’s flimsy coming from a completely neutral stance. In such a case each and every deity has an equal shot.
You do realize that the difference between monotheism and polytheism is just as vast as between atheism and polytheism, don’t you? 🙂

:shamrock2:
 
Hopefully wild,

Let me understand. You are an Athiest because you haven’t heard any good arguments in favor of the divine. Is this correct? Or do you have a problem with the divine in relation to your views of Justice, Morals, etc…?
Uh, I guess both a little.
 
Some people don’t like the word “atheism” because they think it’s ugly or it presumes the existence of God, so to speak. What are your thoughts on “atheism”?
It’s true, most people don’t like the word because it is felt that we don’t need such a word, just like we don’t need words for non astrologers and non alchemists.
 
I’d like to make a blanket statement. The purpose of this thread is NOT to defend my beliefs as an atheist, and so I do not wish to go over all the arguments. I’ve been there before as I’m sure all of you have as well. The purpose of this thread was simply to answer any questions anyone might have about me and my life and my views on atheism. That sort of thing. I’m not up for any debates, I’ve been through them all and I guess you could say I’m burnt out. So please, no more challenges. I thank you ahead of time.
 
I’d like to make a blanket statement. The purpose of this thread is NOT to defend my beliefs as an atheist, and so I do not wish to go over all the arguments. I’ve been there before as I’m sure all of you have as well. The purpose of this thread was simply to answer any questions anyone might have about me and my life and my views on atheism. That sort of thing. I’m not up for any debates, I’ve been through them all and I guess you could say I’m burnt out. So please, no more challenges. I thank you ahead of time.
Are you an Athiest or an Agnostic?
 
You do realize that the difference between monotheism and polytheism is just as vast as between atheism and polytheism, don’t you? 🙂

:shamrock2:
Pascal’s Wager ONLY carries weight if you can dismiss all other gods and only get down to the Trinity.

That’s all I’m saying. Nothing to do with polytheism.

From the position where the OP is, Thor has just as much a chance at being the “correct god” as does Jesus, hence Pascal’s wager is not logically sound.
 
Pascal’s Wager ONLY carries weight if you can dismiss all other gods and only get down to the Trinity.
Even then, if your “belief” is based solely upon a what if scenario, then do you really believe? Imagine I approached you and said “Do you believe in Santa Claus”? You of course say “No”. Then I say, “I’ll give you $10 if you believe in Santa”. Now if you say “Sure! for ten dollars I’ll believe in Santa. Whatever you want”. In that situation could it be said that you really believe in Santa? Of course not. The same is true if you claim to believe in a god simply to avoid going to hell just in case he actually exists. Keep in mind, if the Moslems or right wing xtians are correct all you Catholics are still going to hell. The very definition of damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
 
BTW, in the same way, this question is also very relevant for proponents of Darwin’s ‘Theory of Evolution’ :

Why do you WANT to believe in Darwinian evolution?
 
Even then, if your “belief” is based solely upon a what if scenario, then do you really believe? Imagine I approached you and said “Do you believe in Santa Claus”? You of course say “No”. Then I say, “I’ll give you $10 if you believe in Santa”. Now if you say “Sure! for ten dollars I’ll believe in Santa. Whatever you want”. In that situation could it be said that you really believe in Santa? Of course not. The same is true if you claim to believe in a god simply to avoid going to hell just in case he actually exists. Keep in mind, if the Moslems or right wing xtians are correct all you Catholics are still going to hell. The very definition of damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
You bring up another great point, though admittedly I was only focusing on the probabilistic blunders of Pascal’s Wager (i.e. 500,000+ deities since human civilization + 1 option of atheism = any deity having a 1 in 500,001 chance of being the “correct” one).

As you mentioned, even if we do get past the probability (by narrowing down the 500,000 to just 1 deity) then you must ACTUALLY believe, genuinely in that deity and not feign the faith (for I assume any deity worthy of worship would be intelligent enough to know your intentions).

Excellent post.
 
BTW, in the same way, this question is also very relevant for proponents of Darwin’s ‘Theory of Evolution’ :

Why do you WANT to believe in Darwinian evolution?
LOL. You’re too cute.

I WANT to accept that which is well substantiated by physical evidence for two reasons:
  1. To not look a fool in my profession.
  2. To be that much closer to the truth.
Why do you WANT to hold onto your preconceived beliefs so badly as to be intentionally ignorant of evidence?
 
Ok can you define what you mean when you say athiest? Is it simply and only that you do not be in anything that can be considered divine?
Yes, this is rather important in this discussion. Please OP, give us your definition of atheism (for it seems no two people necessarily agree on this).

It seems most atheists (with whom I’ve spoken) define atheism as sort of the null hypothesis, namely that they’ve yet to see any physical evidence of a god and so they take the so-called “default position”.

For many religious people, it seems the aforementioned definition is one of agnosticism and not atheism, and they tend to define atheism as the affirmative rejection of any god(s).

In other words, some define atheism to be the “prove it” position while other define it to mean “I’m 100% certain there is no god” position.

I personally tend to shy away from the latter definition and accept the former, and I even argue that there really is no such thing as an agnostic (or that EVERYONE is agnostic since no one is with 100% knowledge of the supernatural). In my opinion you are either a theist or an atheist. You cannot “kind of” believe. If even one fiber in your body believes in a deity then you are a theist.

So what’s your take on it?
 
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