Ask an Atheist

[Ronald_E]

QUOTE=sambos671;4338106]There is no evidence of this in the natural order. I can buy that the more advanced a species is the more complicated its desires or takes on desires become but that does not equate to an orderly and peaceful environment. Like I’ve mentioned before rational thought would indicate that an orderly and peaceful environment is probably best established by totalitarian rule. Humans operate though out of a need for liberty. You would think that our rational ability would move us in this direction but no the “enlightened thinkers” move towards liberty.
Still in order to have a peaceful environment can be accomplished by violence and total subjection of all else. Morality is irrelevant and an inefficient way of accomplishing these goals (which I doubt man has).

In my opinion, comparisons between human behavior and the behavior of other known species are largely flawed because of our intellectual capacity in comparison to the others. Our present level of intellect gives us the ability to strive towards the reality we feel will best suit our needs, but it is not necessarily sufficient to accomplish this. Our efforts are still limited by many things, not the least of which are the limits of our intellect. Superstitions (religion, faith) and emotions (hatred, racism, love, fear) still control many of our decisions and cloud our perceptions of reality. Environment (both political and physical), and access to resources (food,water, fuel) also play a significant role in our abilities to become self realized.
Obviously a man who is locked in a cell may be less concerned about his right to vote than his physical freedom. That same man may willing to re-enter that same cell if it means he’ll have access to food and water; if otherwise he he did not. What we value is not intrinsic but rather subjective. But since we all have things in common, we will all have a certain number of similar values. Again, most of us a fear of death, no sane person like pain. Those realities are going to influence the behavior of all of us.
Ultimately, every aspect of human behavior and morality (even empathy) can be explain in purely physiological and psychological terms. Of course this does not mean that there is not a God, but absolutely and undeniably morality (a we define it)would exist even with out one. I’ll ask you to compare crime rates against the percentages of Christians in an individual nation. Nations with low percentages of Christians tend to also have lower rates of crime (particularly violent crime rates). Again, not necessarily a denial of your faith, but certainly puts into question just how tied morality and faith in Christ really are.
I will make this short All. There is a quote in the bible in which Christ states that He will put His law in the hearts of everyone.
Must go now, my spouse is waiting for the computer.

 

[Allnamesused]

as an athiest… how do you know whats wrong and whats right.

how do you know that killing a people is wrong? where do you base your morals? there are no morals in science.

therefore it must be that your morals have to come from somewhere else ( such as religion)

Good questions. I have actually answered those exact questions in detail in previous posts. They may not be good answers, but they are my take on the subject. I just don’t want to re-type it all again.

 

[Allnamesused]

I will make this short All. There is a quote in the bible in which Christ states that He will put His law in the hearts of everyone.
Must go now, my spouse is waiting for the computer.

A common belief held by various faiths. Listen, it may be true, I just don’t see evidence of it.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Ben2, Thank you for your kind and thoughtful response. When I think of infanticide I just go crazy because I can see how it could be stopped through our sacrifice and opening ourselves to sacrificial suffering that would unite us to the unborn children in a spiritual way.
I can see Mary with Jesus in her womb journeying to see Elizabeth alone on a dangerous road. I see Jesus sending our the 72 with nothing except what they had on their backs and trust in Him. I see His 3 years of open communication with everyone by journeying to their towns. I see Him leaving the safety and comfort of His home and family to ask us to become part of His family. And then I see Him give up everything for us.
I wrote Pope Benedict a letter in Sept of '06 asking him to lead us on a pilgrimage to Darfur to care for the widows and the orphans. I wanted to join him and receive Communion from him their. I could see that our faith has the means to make this happen and be an action of ultimate faith and the reality that God is Love. It would unite in sacrificial love.
I received a letter in return telling me that he also is concerned for their suffering and asked if I had read his first encyclical letter “God is Love”.
My wife just sat down beside me and turned on the radio. Here is what I am listening to right now, “Winter, spring, summer or fall all you have to do is call and I’ll be there. You’ve got a friend.”
All of the different gifts in the Body of Christ are being used fragmentally and are doing holy works but are not united in the struggle to stop abortion.
I can see very clearly how we can unite and show others the truth of our faith first in the action of God’s Love and then with the words to explain why. This is how Our Lord and His Holy Family started and lived.
There is so much more I could clarify.
God Bless You Ben2

Hi Ron,

I know that the Church’s charity organization Caritas has an arm in Darfur because we have donated for this specific cause. Have you thought of maybe volunteering with them, that is if you are able? I think this is a subject very close to your heart so this might be something worth investigating. God may well be calling you to this but discernment is needed.

I believe greatly in prayer. I think even if you are where you are right now, your prayer works wonders in Darfur. The little sacrifices and moritifications we make if we offer it to God goes a long way. I think of St Therese of Lisseux and all the monastic and contemplative nuns who have never left their monasteries, and yet who I am sure, have changed the world for the better just as much as those in the “active” orders. This actually requires a lot of trust and a lot of humility because most of the time, you never see the fruits of your prayer. One just needs to trust that God is bringing about something wonderful with our prayers and that He knows what He is on about.

A year ago, I saw: “Shame” a documentary on Mukhtaran Bibi, a gangrape victim in Pakistan. It is probably the most (name removed by moderator)iring film I have ever seen. As I watched, it dawned on me that the courage that Mukhtaran Bibi showed and the change she brought about was one of the fruits of places like Carmel.

If we do not seem to be united in our efforts, we can perhaps pray for that and maybe little by little this will come about. All in God’s time.

And it doesn’t matter which wound you salve, the wound in Darfur or the one in your neighbourhood, you are still salving the Body of Christ. And with that I am sure, He is pleased.

 

[sambos671]

I’ll ask you to compare crime rates against the percentages of Christians in an individual nation. Nations with low percentages of Christians tend to also have lower rates of crime (particularly violent crime rates). Again, not necessarily a denial of your faith, but certainly puts into question just how tied morality and faith in Christ really are.

having some experience with Statistics I would question aspects of that assertion such as ( Having lived in several 3rd world nations myself) how are the reporting of crimes. There are many cases of rapes and violent crimes in these countries that are simply ignored and many of them are Islamic. You right about not having another enlightened animal with which to study to verify our statements. However, Logically looking at things logically though the consept of fairness justice or liberty eludes me. Though many things could be looked at in the human behavior from a psychological perspective most psychologist will tell you that its not a perfect science because how complicated human thought and behavior are. Eternity is another consept I have a problem with from an evolution stand point.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
So, you’re not interested in how we see:

• Birth control is at best violence to spousal relationships, and at worst murder?
• That the Consecrated Host is really (in reality) Jesus?
• That the self-infliction of hell is necessary for justice to exist?
• That the Holy Trinity is simply a truth which has been given to us by God Himself?
• That our Mother Mary’s chastity was the result of her wisdom and holiness?
• That God gives us free will as an absolute gift which He will not violate while himself possessing the ability of omnipotence, one aspect of which is omniscience?
• That there is an absolute “ground-level” basis for the orderliness of the universe, which can only be from God?

Since you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about when saying these things are “crazy”, other than that they SEEM crazy due to your own ignorant-of-our-way of thinking, you might want to know why “the crazies” don’t think they’re crazy so that you can help become “not so crazy”.

I’m not going to -]re/-] [re?] debate Catholic theology-],/-] “,” and not “.”?] I’m not going to convince you and you’re not going to convince me.

So why am I here “mocking” Catholics? I’m not mocking you-],/-] “,” and not “.”?] it’s just that I’m through with sitting -]ideally/-] [idly] by while people continue to go on assuming that the existence [add: of] god is a given and that -]there’s/-] [theirs] is the only proper way to consider him.

I’m not interested in debating you, or anyone else. I don’t DO debate.

When someone shows me how amazingly uneducated they are about things that they obviously think they do know something about, it’s time for them to be informed that they need some educating.

If they refuse to be educated, usually refusing the education because they imagine, wrongly, that that means they are trying to be “converted”, and they continue to “mock” as “demented” what they think they understand but in reality don’t, then they are simply being “noise” and doing so simply to shout down their imagined adversaries by “mocking” them.

So, are you interested in why we see the above enumerated things as “not crazy”, or are you just interested in more ignorant mocking?

:shamrock2:

 

[Allnamesused]

I’m not interested in debating you, or anyone else. I don’t DO debate.

When someone shows me how amazingly uneducated they are about things that they obviously think they do know something about, it’s time for them to be informed that they need some educating.

If they refuse to be educated, usually refusing the education because they imagine, wrongly, that that means they are trying to be “converted”, and they continue to “mock” as “demented” what they think they understand but in reality don’t, then they are simply being “noise” and doing so simply to shout down their imagined adversaries by “mocking” them.

So, are you interested in why we see the above enumerated things as “not crazy”, or are you just interested in more ignorant mocking?

:shamrock2:

OK. Educate me as to how hell is self-inflicted and necessary. BTW…I see Catholics mocking the beliefs of other faiths on this forum all the time.

 

[Allnamesused]

However, Logically looking at things logically though the consept of fairness justice or liberty eludes me. Though many things could be looked at in the human behavior from a psychological perspective most psychologist will tell you that its not a perfect science because how complicated human thought and behavior are. Eternity is another consept I have a problem with from an evolution stand point.

I would encourage you to check this link out:

greatergood.berkeley.edu/greatergood/archive/2005fallwinter/FallWinter0506_deWaal.pdf

Don’t know why it didn’t properly link. You’ll have to cut and paste. This article and many other demonstrte that morality also exists amoung other “lower” species and how through the evolutionary process this is possible.

 

[Allnamesused]

Your going to bring the world to them? As if they do not control their own world or environment. I have sat back the last 10 years and submitted questions to myself of Gods existence after being raised in a strict Protestant religion in a small town environment.
I can tell you after spending many years on the east coast, you will not find many people with half the morals of small town folk in the Mid-West who, yes, spend a lot of their time in Protestant Churches. I have learned the errors of my ways as a Protestant, and wish to learn as much as I can about Catholicism. But, these Protestant people here live the simple life with their heads in their Bibles, happy and hard working with high morals.

Maybe you should sit idly by, do and say nothing and let those who put faith in God and believe in the natural way of things be. Everyone would be better off that way.

People do not need to have a litteral belief in the book of genisis to behave morally. People can be more and understand that evolution is a reality and that the universe is older than 6-10 thousand years old. Supersticious beliefs are fine when you keep them to yourself, but when you start voting based soley upon totally disproven ignorance then that becomes a problem for all of us. I am just trying to get the word out. I live in a nation where people are actually voting for a canidate who recently had a witchdoctor protect her from witches, who believe that the Catholic Church is of “Satan” and that the universe is about 8000 years old. She’ll likely be the canidate for president in 4 years. What’s worse is that they are voting for her not inspite of her wacked out beliefs but because of them!

 

[FollowTheWay]

For all those that are atheists on this board:

I understand that most atheists become atheist because of traditional christianity, whether Christian or Catholic the American church has been about themselves, and is no longer even close to the actual church many centuries ago, there is no community and they believe that a building is the church (of course im not talking about everyone) Whatever your background is I would like to encourage you to check out home church’s, they have several websites to find one close to you. If you PM me I can give the links and discuss it further. If there is anyone that is christian or catholic and feels the same way please feel free to PM me.

 

[JMJ_coder]

For all those that are atheists on this board:

I understand that most atheists become atheist because of traditional christianity, whether Christian or Catholic the American church has been about themselves, and is no longer even close to the actual church many centuries ago, there is no community and they believe that a building is the church (of course im not talking about everyone) Whatever your background is I would like to encourage you to check out home church’s, they have several websites to find one close to you. If you PM me I can give the links and discuss it further. If there is anyone that is christian or catholic and feels the same way please feel free to PM me.

Great, you added another group to the growing tally of Protestant denominations. All we need do is wait until next week when you or your buddy splinters from this group and founds yet another.

As for “there is no community and they believe that a building is the church”

By faith we know that God is “present everywhere and fills all things”; yet we know that we are not ordinarily sensitive to this presence. We need reminders of the heavenly dimension which surrounds and upholds us. The church building becomes for us a sacred space, a visible icon of the kingdom of God. Our worship becomes a sacred time wherein we come collectively into God’s presence to be united with Him and each other for sanctification.

(Light for Life, vol. 2, pg. 92)​

 

[JMJ_coder]

OK. Educate me as to how hell is self-inflicted and necessary. BTW…I see Catholics mocking the beliefs of other faiths on this forum all the time.

One way to think about it, in terms familiar to this world, is an addiction. Imagine a man who is addicted to alcohol, or drugs, or gambling (or whatever). There are many reasons why he may be addicted - perhaps, he is deluded into thinking it makes him happy, maybe even he is trying to punish someone (himself or a loved one). Regardless, the effect is devastating. It destroys his life. He is, in effect, living a hell on earth. No matter the number of interventions, or the help provided, he chooses to remain addicted. No one has forced it on him, he has done it to himself, it is self-inflicted.

 

[Allnamesused]

One way to think about it, in terms familiar to this world, is an addiction. Imagine a man who is addicted to alcohol, or drugs, or gambling (or whatever). There are many reasons why he may be addicted - perhaps, he is deluded into thinking it makes him happy, maybe even he is trying to punish someone (himself or a loved one). Regardless, the effect is devastating. It destroys his life. He is, in effect, living a hell on earth. No matter the number of interventions, or the help provided, he chooses to remain addicted. No one has forced it on him, he has done it to himself, it is self-inflicted.

We need some terms defined. What is hell? There are a variety of definitions. Some believe that scriptures indicate that it is an actual physical location where one lives in fiery torment for an eternity. Others describe it as the souls eternal existence separated from God; an intense sadness from which there is no hope for redemption. It is neither a location nor is it physical. This is described as the unavoidable consequence of having an eternal soul and having chosen to reject the love of God. Hell in this definition is essentially the default existence of our soul if we haven’t chosen God.
In the first definition, it’s undeniable that hell is an imposed consequence. God specifically sends you there to suffer eternally. This is an absolute contradiction to the belief that God is all-loving and merciful…there’s just no way around it. If you believe that God sends sinners to hell for eternity then he neither loves them (ergo not all-loving) nor is he merciful (imposing a punishment that massively exceeds the crime is the definitional opposite of mercy).
The second definition of hell is, to my understanding, the present Catholic teachings regarding the subject. It assumes that God is still all-loving and merciful; has done everything that he can to allow us to avoid an eternal existence without him and is greatly saddened when we fail in this regard. Of course, it ignores the fact that god is creator of all things. He created the fact that an eternal existence without him is a possibility in the first place. He also created the terms under which one can avoid an eternity without him. He also created the reality that makes salvation only possible during our brief mortal existence and prohibits it during the remainder of our eternity. God also created the reality where there are countless alternatives to Christianity in the world each seeming more plausible and valid to those individuals indoctrinated in them. The Catholic God insists that for guidance we depend upon a book written nearly 2000 years ago by humans and filled with inconsistencies and known falsehoods, and a Church that over the past 2000 years has not always proven itself to be the paragon of virtue and Christian values. Furthermore the fact that an all-loving God would knowingly allow those he loves so much to spend an eternity in anguish when he has the power to end it certainly seems to place into serious doubt just how much he truly loves us and how merciful he might actually be.

Let me provide you an analogy:
Imagine that the next time I met my friend Steve I ask him “Hey Steve, how’s your son Tommy”?
He replies, “Not well…he has fallen into the pit I dug in my backyard and can’t get out. He’ll likely starve to death over the next 20 - 30 days”.
"Oh my gosh, " I reply “that’s horrible. Can’t you get him out”?
“Well yes…of course I could, but here’s the deal: Two years ago, I warned him not to get near that pit, and here he goes, two years later and falls into it. He deserves his fate, and if I rescued him…which I easily could…he would not learn a lesson from this sad experience. Like I said, I warned him to stay away from that hole”.
“But…but…he’s just 8 years old…you’re his father. You can’t just let him starve to death in that hole”!
“Listen, I love Tommy more than anything. I love him with my whole heart, but he was warned two years ago…he deserves his horrible fate”.
“Do you know why he got so near that hole in the first place…like you said, you did warn him”?
“Well…my neighbor, he likes to put toys and candy in the hole…you know…to tempt Tommy to enter it. Tommy was attempting to get a Power Ranger out of the hole”?
“WHAT! Why do you allow this”?
“Well, my neighbor likes to lure children into harms way, and I allow him to do it…I could stop him if I wanted to, but I don’t. Anyway, like I said, I told him two years ago when he was 6 to avoid the hole. If he loved me he would have listened. Do you know how saddened I am by this whole situation?”.

Ask yourself, what’s your opinion of Steve’s parenting skills? If Steve allows this to happen, does Steve truly love his son? How is Steve attitude any different from that of a God who would all his children to suffer eternal hell. At least the son’s torment will be over in 20 -30 days; God mercifully allows us to suffer for an eternity if we stray”.

 

[JMJ_coder]

We need some terms defined. What is hell? There are a variety of definitions. Some believe that scriptures indicate that it is an actual physical location where one lives in fiery torment for an eternity. Others describe it as the souls eternal existence separated from God; an intense sadness from which there is no hope for redemption. It is neither a location nor is it physical. This is described as the unavoidable consequence of having an eternal soul and having chosen to reject the love of God. Hell in this definition is essentially the default existence of our soul if we haven’t chosen God.
In the first definition, it’s undeniable that hell is an imposed consequence. God specifically sends you there to suffer eternally. This is an absolute contradiction to the belief that God is all-loving and merciful…there’s just no way around it. If you believe that God sends sinners to hell for eternity then he neither loves them (ergo not all-loving) nor is he merciful (imposing a punishment that massively exceeds the crime is the definitional opposite of mercy).
The second definition of hell is, to my understanding, the present Catholic teachings regarding the subject. It assumes that God is still all-loving and merciful; has done everything that he can to allow us to avoid an eternal existence without him and is greatly saddened when we fail in this regard. Of course, it ignores the fact that god is creator of all things. He created the fact that an eternal existence without him is a possibility in the first place. He also created the terms under which one can avoid an eternity without him. He also created the reality that makes salvation only possible during our brief mortal existence and prohibits it during the remainder of our eternity. God also created the reality where there are countless alternatives to Christianity in the world each seeming more plausible and valid to those individuals indoctrinated in them. The Catholic God insists that for guidance we depend upon a book written nearly 2000 years ago by humans and filled with inconsistencies and known falsehoods, and a Church that over the past 2000 years has not always proven itself to be the paragon of virtue and Christian values. Furthermore the fact that an all-loving God would knowingly allow those he loves so much to spend an eternity in anguish when he has the power to end it certainly seems to place into serious doubt just how much he truly loves us and how merciful he might actually be.

Let me provide you an analogy:
Imagine that the next time I met my friend Steve I ask him “Hey Steve, how’s your son Tommy”?
He replies, “Not well…he has fallen into the pit I dug in my backyard and can’t get out. He’ll likely starve to death over the next 20 - 30 days”.
"Oh my gosh, " I reply “that’s horrible. Can’t you get him out”?
“Well yes…of course I could, but here’s the deal: Two years ago, I warned him not to get near that pit, and here he goes, two years later and falls into it. He deserves his fate, and if I rescued him…which I easily could…he would not learn a lesson from this sad experience. Like I said, I warned him to stay away from that hole”.
“But…but…he’s just 8 years old…you’re his father. You can’t just let him starve to death in that hole”!
“Listen, I love Tommy more than anything. I love him with my whole heart, but he was warned two years ago…he deserves his horrible fate”.
“Do you know why he got so near that hole in the first place…like you said, you did warn him”?
“Well…my neighbor, he likes to put toys and candy in the hole…you know…to tempt Tommy to enter it. Tommy was attempting to get a Power Ranger out of the hole”?
“WHAT! Why do you allow this”?
“Well, my neighbor likes to lure children into harms way, and I allow him to do it…I could stop him if I wanted to, but I don’t. Anyway, like I said, I told him two years ago when he was 6 to avoid the hole. If he loved me he would have listened. Do you know how saddened I am by this whole situation?”.

Ask yourself, what’s your opinion of Steve’s parenting skills? If Steve allows this to happen, does Steve truly love his son? How is Steve attitude any different from that of a God who would all his children to suffer eternal hell. At least the son’s torment will be over in 20 -30 days; God mercifully allows us to suffer for an eternity if we stray”.

You see contradictions where there aren’t any. You see things, also, in an almost purely pain/pleasure, reward/punishment light. Hell is the the privation of God. Whether it will be a physical location, just a state, both or some other we don’t know. We don’t know the exact nature of hell aside from the fact that those in hell are completely without hope and without the goodness of God (from whence comes every goodness). The pains are horrible (beyond imagining). Those in hell will also be reunited with their souls and together will suffer eternally.

As for your analogy, Steve wouldn’t be a very good parent, but that is not how God works. God doesn’t dig holes. Imagine instead living somewhere and their is a big canyon. God tells you not to wander near it, but you do and you fall in. God comes by and throws you a rope, you tell Him to bug off. God sends the National Guard and you tell them your happy in the canyon and they too can bug off. God comes by every second of every day and begs you to let Him rescue you, but you just ignore Him and maybe even put cotton in your ears to deaden His calls. Is it then God’s fault that you let yourself die in the canyon?

 

[Dameedna]

I’m so late in this thread but something just went ding-a-ling when I read the first page so decided to reply anyway.

The OP called himself a “true” atheist. That’s veeeeeeeeeery interesting

I called myself that for a long time, and had to eventually change my terminology because people just kept pestering me for a definition of a “true” athiest. They kept saying…as opposed to what? For some reason, I recognized that not all self-appointed atheist(who had since converted) were ever actually atheists. I was differentiating myself from them with the use of the word “true”

I alway’s find it now interesting, when I hear the same thing. I know what you mean I understand what you mean by true. I can even actually explain it

Cheers

P.S This post was really only for the OP’s benefit, and if he’s disappeared, please ignore, I just couldn’t go through 14 pages of text.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Mr JMJ,

the bible is a very interesting book because it shows us a exactly what the new church is supposed to look like according to the NT. It also tells us in Galatians 1:8

“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”

according to the NT there is no religion, in fact Christ is completely against it. Its a community of believers that called themselves “followers of the way”.

you cant put new wine in old wine skins, and the church has been trying to do it since the 1st century and have continually failed.

Maybe if more people spent less time trying to prove atheists wrong, and instead try to love on them and have community with them we wouldnt be in the situation were in.

 

[Allnamesused]

You see contradictions where there aren’t any. You see things, also, in an almost purely pain/pleasure, reward/punishment light. Hell is the the privation of God. Whether it will be a physical location, just a state, both or some other we don’t know. We don’t know the exact nature of hell aside from the fact that those in hell are completely without hope and without the goodness of God (from whence comes every goodness). The pains are horrible (beyond imagining). Those in hell will also be reunited with their souls and together will suffer eternally.

As for your analogy, Steve wouldn’t be a very good parent, but that is not how God works. God doesn’t dig holes. Imagine instead living somewhere and their is a big canyon. God tells you not to wander near it, but you do and you fall in. God comes by and throws you a rope, you tell Him to bug off. God sends the National Guard and you tell them your happy in the canyon and they too can bug off. God comes by every second of every day and begs you to let Him rescue you, but you just ignore Him and maybe even put cotton in your ears to deaden His calls. Is it then God’s fault that you let yourself die in the canyon?

You are correct God doesn’t dig holes, he just creates hells from which there is no national guard to save you. Hell only exists because God created it and because he wants it to exist. The fact of the matter is, the most evil and horrible sin any of us can ever commit is measurable and finite, and for our finite sins we will face the infinite terror of hell. Where is the justice of an infinite punishment for what is by definite a finite sin? Where is the mercy? I will not deny that Hell exists, but only that if it does then the one who constructed it is an individual who certainly lacks the all-loving and merciful characteristics you attribute to him. If hell exists, then Fred Phelp’s is correct…God loves who he loves and infinitely hates who he hates. I’m not saying that there’s anything wrong with punishing evil doers, but make the punishment fit the crime. Furthermore, do you honestly believe that any sane person who honestly understood the consequences of his actions (as you describe them) would ever really choose infinite torment over eternal pleasure. Of course not! The only true sin is ignorance, the failure to understand what’s at stake. This is why, JPII preached of Universal Salvation…the notion that in the fullness of time all might have the truth revealed to them and upon knowing the truth all will receive salvation. This is of course a massive departure from long standing Catholic teachings, but it’s what makes sense if you wish to believe that God is not in fact a monster.

romancatholicism.org/jpii-quotes.htm

 

[Dameedna]

Maybe if more people spent less time trying to prove atheists wrong, and instead try to love on them and have community with them we wouldnt be in the situation were in.

I have come across a woman who embraced the essence of the religion, and she accepted me completely for who I was.

She didn’t care what my beliefs were, and I didnt’ care what hers were. We loved each other, and she is still my best friend. She changed me as a human completely. Was the first time in my life, that I understood the power, of christ…the power of unconditional love.

Wether it’s make belief, an ideal, a human evolutionary trait it actually doesn’t matter. It works.

Thanks to my christian friend and you are right Mr poster. More love, less judgement. Most christians haven’t gotten to that point yet however. They are still too busy figuring out the rules, to understand the essence of their faith tradition.

 

[Dameedna]

This is of course a massive departure from long standing Catholic teachings, but it’s what makes sense if you wish to believe that God is not in fact a monster.

romancatholicism.org/jpii-quotes.htm

At some point, you have to choose love, over the God that is presented to you.

The athiest has a chose, to a degree. They can "choose’ to believe in religions that teach of an eternal punishment, or reject it because of who they are.

Atheists are what they are, not because they don’t love God. They simply love too much, to support the notion of traditional religion.

Athiests will give up a hope for a self-rewarding etneral life before they will give up their ability to love all humanity and support a believe where a human will burn for eternity. Christians, present the athiest with absolutely nothing, but the horror of their doctine. We’d rather die…and we will.

But it’s okay…I just “don’t understand”.(Say’s the christian).

I do understand, I simply don’t accept it. I don’t agree.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

OK. Educate me as to how hell is self-inflicted and necessary. BTW…I see Catholics mocking the beliefs of other faiths on this forum all the time.

Hell is the irrevocable choice of something other than God “lived out” through eternity.

Hell is necessary because justice is necessary. Justice is giving one what is truly owed and is best for one. Hell is merely God’s allowing persons their free will choices even unto eternity.

Our free will is more important than our “comfort”. Our free will IS our personhood, and will not be violated by God as God does not un-create, and to violate our free will is to un-create us as persons.

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

We Catholics should inform those of other faiths of where they are wrong, and what the correct “answer” to their wrong is, but it is uncharitable, and therefore unCatholic, to mock others.

Are we (rather often) sinners who DO uncharitable things? Yup!

:shamrock2: