ASK FATHER: Priest tells woman not to wear veil at Mass

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Ever been to Afghanistan? I have, and I’ve lived in Saudi Arabia.

You’re pulling from a different cultural context. Burqas - which were referenced in the post you responded to - and the Saudi Arabian abayya are indeed strict and fundamentalist. They’re not just headscarves. And trust me that you feel different when you’re wearing one. I wore one every time I left the house for three years.

Although I disagree with the poster that says they’re chosen. They’re enforced - even in places that aren’t in those fundamentalist cultures. Those women know no other way, and essentially have no choice.

But they’re certainly not wearing the equivalent of a gorgeous Hermes scarf. It’s an oppressive garment. Not a pretty one.
 
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Pup7 said:
Ever been to Afghanistan? I have, and I’ve lived in Saudi Arabia.

You’re pulling from a different cultural context. Burqas - which were referenced in the post you responded to - and the Saudi Arabian abayya are indeed strict and fundamentalist. They’re not just headscarves. And trust me that you feel different when you’re wearing one. I wore one every time I left the house for three years.

Although I disagree with the poster that says they’re chosen. They’re enforced - even in places that aren’t in those fundamentalist cultures. Those women know no other way, and essentially have no choice.

But they’re certainly not wearing the equivalent of a gorgeous Hermes scarf. It’s an oppressive garment. Not a pretty one.
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The poster I was replying to was asking about the motives of women who choose for themselves to cover their heads in church, not asking whether there ought to be a rule again that requires women to have their heads covered. Even when this was the rule of the Church, however, it was never a rule that applied to everywhere a woman went! Even in Islamic countries…well, look at Queen Noor. She dresses more like Princess Grace than like the women forced to wear a full-on burka.

I don’t see how it is better to go from society telling you that you have to cover your head to a situation where you may not do so without having your motives challenged. Unlike men, women may go into church with their heads covered, if they so choose (although most people consider it impolite to wear a hat suitable for a man on the premise that such a hat looks wrong in church on anyone).
 
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Jordan isn’t a fundamentalist nation, though. Not even close. Jordanians dress like Westerners and the women who wear abayyas there (there is a difference in an abayya and a burqa) do so by choice. In Saudi Arabia, it is not a choice, it is law for Muslim women. For non-Muslims, it’s not law - but unless you want to make yourself a gigantic target for the Muta’awa (the so-called religious police), you’ll wear one.

it’s extremely difficult to compare Islamic nations because they operate on a pendulum. The UAE, for the most part (think Abu Dhabi and Dubai) is quite liberal - and yet there are at least two of the Emirates that aren’t, that are more like Saudi Arabia. In Saudi, the abayya is mandatory. And of course most know that in Afghanistan under Taliban rule and jurisdiction, a burqa is the required garment for women.
 
Pup7 said:
Jordan isn’t a fundamentalist nation, though. Not even close. Jordanians dress like Westerners and the women who wear abayyas there (there is a difference in an abayya and a burqa) do so by choice. In Saudi Arabia, it is not a choice, it is law for Muslim women. For non-Muslims, it’s not law - but unless you want to make yourself a gigantic target for the Muta’awa (the so-called religious police), you’ll wear one.

it’s extremely difficult to compare Islamic nations because they operate on a pendulum. The UAE, for the most part (think Abu Dhabi and Dubai) is quite liberal - and yet there are at least two of the Emirates that aren’t, that are more like Saudi Arabia. In Saudi, the abayya is mandatory. And of course most know that in Afghanistan under Taliban rule and jurisdiction, a burqa is the required garment for women.
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OK, but this thread isn’t about whether women ought to be forced to wear head coverings anywhere. The thread is about whether it was OK for a priest to forbid a woman from wearing a head covering and actually getting up during a homily and making a connection between choosing to cover one’s head and having a “holier than thou” attitude.

Why would it be any better to make rash and unflattering judgments about a woman based on whether she chooses to cover her head than to do so because she does not? No one is running down any of the rest of us and telling us we have to get ourselves a veil if we’re going to be decent. No, at present the busybodies are going after those of us who do wear them–that is the direction our pendulum has swung.

I think if we don’t want some self-appointetd religious police telling us we must wear something in particular in order to be acceptable, we should also object to a self-appointed religious police force who makes it their business to tell us we may not wear things that are not only totally acceptable but well within the boundaries of precedent. As long as the women wearing the veils aren’t doing double-duty as a self-appointed clothing police, I think it is best to let them be and refrain from making assumptions (good or bad) about their motives.

I don’t mean it is out of place to ask out of curiosity or because someone is thinking of doing it themselves, provided there is no implication that the question is asking for a justification. There doesn’t need to be one. “I just like them” is sufficient.
 
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PetraG said:
No one is running down any of the rest of us and telling us we have to get ourselves a veil if we’re going to be decent. No, at present the busybodies are going after those of us who do wear them–that is the direction our pendulum has swung.
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At least on this forum, that has not been my experience. I’ve seen far more posts suggesting that women who cover their heads are more reverent and somehow more obedient to (nonexistent) Church law than women who do not.

Most posts criticizing the practice are concerned with the implication that all women ought to be doing this, but stopped doing so out of disobedience or irreverence.
 
JulianN said:
At least on this forum, that has not been my experience. I’ve seen far more posts suggesting that women who cover their heads are more reverent and somehow more obedient to (nonexistent) Church law than women who do not.

Most posts criticizing the practice are concerned with the implication that all women ought to be doing this, but stopped doing so out of disobedience or irreverence.
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When anyone makes a post that implies they can read the state of someone else’s soul by looking at what is (or is not) on her head, I object to it all the same, whether the busybody thinks all women ought to wear a veil or thinks that no women ought to. The Church has the authority when it comes to spiritual disciplines of this kind, and in our day the Church has seen fit to allow women the latitude to make their own decisions.

There is no prohibition either way. If people want to talk about being submissive and humble, well, maybe the Church sees that being submissive and humble to minding our own business is discipline enough? If there is a current discipline, that it is it.

In the original case, however, a pastor might have more prerogative to set the dress code in his own church. I would be very surprised, however, if there are any bishops out there defending pastors who make prohibition of head coverings for women part of their dress codes. I would think that the bishop would tell the pastor to tone it down, rather than telling the woman that a bared head is required to get into that pastor’s church.
 
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JulianN said:
At least on this forum, that has not been my experience. I’ve seen far more posts suggesting that women who cover their heads are more reverent and somehow more obedient to (nonexistent) Church law than women who do not.

Most posts criticizing the practice are concerned with the implication that all women ought to be doing this, but stopped doing so out of disobedience or irreverence
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I guess we all have different perspectives, but I have not seen much, if any, of the type of posts you describe. If anything, it has been the opposite: a number of posters in the last few threads on this subject have been very disparaging of women wearing veils (or other headcoverings).

It’s interesting that it tends to be such a contentious subject when it comes up; I really don’t know why that is.
 
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Pup7 said:
Didn’t say nor imply that it was…I was addressing your comment.
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Well, but even you say there is variation even in how Islam interprets what it means for a woman to cover her head. It is pretty clear that allowing women to choose to cover their heads isn’t going to lead to a burka requirement in canon law.

On that account, I’m not sure why this is anything for those who don’t want to wear head coverings to get worked up about.
 
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PetraG said:
Well, but even you say there is variation even in how Islam interprets what it means for a woman to cover her head. It is pretty clear that allowing women to choose to cover their heads isn’t going to lead to a burka requirement in canon law
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There’s no variation in Islam.

There is government variation. The Koran is unmoving. It’s the interpretation that changes based on the powers that be.
 
Pup7 said:
There’s no variation in Islam.

There is government variation. The Koran is unmoving. It’s the interpretation that changes based on the powers that be.
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Yes, well, the same thing could be said of the Bible, but 30,000 denominations later…
(although the Jews and the Muslims at least tend to learn Scriptures in a definitive language, rather than countless translations…)
 
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Oh, and they could flag it and allow it to be tracked. That way, someone could come here and only spend the time it takes to read the threads in which someone actually changed their mind!!

Think of the time saved, LOL!!
 
What is the Mass?

Us at calvary, right?

Pretty sure nobody at the foot of the cross was wearing their ‘Sunday’ best.

I think what really matters is what’s in our hearts. Yes, sometimes that is presented through our attire but sometimes it just isn’t.

There are mornings I’m so depressed and struggling so much with going that I just grab whatever is on the floor. And that, for me, takes a great deal of effort. I’m pretty sure God doesn’t mind. I’m pretty sure He’s just happy I managed to pull myself to His feet.
 
PetraG said:
Yes, well, the same thing could be said of the Bible, but 30,000 denominations later…
(although the Jews and the Muslims at least tend to learn Scriptures in a definitive language, rather than countless translations…)
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Don´t want to derail the thread, but there is a differnece - the koran is seen as dictated from god, the bible inspired and lead by the holy ghost. The first is much more difficult to interprete differently in time.
 
I haven’t read the entire thread but is there anyone here in this forum who wears a mantilla? I think they’re beautiful but since I’ve seen only two or three women in my church wear them, not to mention I’m of the shorts and flip flops variety of Catholic, I’d stand out like a sore thumb if I wore one.
 
I wear one. Years ago when I was considering it, I wondered how it would look to wear one along with jeans, because that’s what I used to wear to Mass at the time. In fact, I even started a thread here about it, but it was a looong time ago. Anyway, since then I see no reason that a mantilla has to match your outfit and still wear it with casual pants (though I rarely wear pants to Sunday Mass).

However I do not wear shorts to Mass, and I suppose it might look kind of incongruent, at least to me. If you’d like to try it, maybe wear a casual but modest skirt or pants with it at first and see how you feel.
 
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