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Kei
Guest
If they are Christians this is a heresy to believe. It is called Marcionism.
The scroll with 7 seals is opened by the Slained Lamb.
The scroll with 7 seals is opened by the Slained Lamb.
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K
Kei
Guest
I know the answer varies wildly, but what are some of the Jewish interpretations of Creation through the fall?
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meltzerboy2
Guest
Some Jews believe in a literal Creation of 6 days. But many more believe that each day of the Creation may have lasted well over 24 hours. In other words, belief in evolution is not prohibited provided it is understood that G-d is in control of the evolutionary process. I think it is similar in Catholicism. However, insofar as believing in Creation as a myth is concerned, this goes too far for mainstream Judaism.
The “Fall” is not part of Jewish theology. Jews do not believe in original sin. Instead, they believe that people are born with the potential to do good.
The “Fall” is not part of Jewish theology. Jews do not believe in original sin. Instead, they believe that people are born with the potential to do good.
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Kei
Guest
Well, the exile from Eden, if you will, then.
I have heard it is believed they lasted a mere hour before eating the fruit.
I have heard it is believed they lasted a mere hour before eating the fruit.
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pablope
Guest
Thanks…you understood what I was intending to ask.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
Why not? There may be more amateurs and aficionados of the genre than you suspect.
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Athanasiy
Guest
The Jewish writers from Russian and the Ukraine, translated into English, but I think they’re more interesting to Jews. Shalom Aleichem is a Jewish writer, who was born in the 19th century in Central Ukraine, his childhood took place in Berdychiv. He wrote exclusively about the life of local Jews. The most iconic of his novels are “Milkman Tevye “and” Wandering Stars”. These two novels were repeatedly dramatized, on a stage of theaters of Ukraine, and were filmed as well. He wrote a beautiful living language, with a strong distinctive characters, the tradition of the Jews of his characters all the time wanted to break…
6 volumes of Shalom Aleichem had been published in the Soviet era.
A later Jewish writer of the 20th century, who wrote in Russian is - Isaac Babel. He praised the Jewish gangster in Odessa. His hero- Mishka Yaponchik. But Babel has praised the revolution as well. He has a series of novels about the Red Army, but there also are heroic Jews who fought in the revolution. There are two movies based on the novel of Babel , which are quite successful.
I am more interested in Shalom Aleichem, I need to find time to read his novels, but I agree that for Jews it is much more interesting to read, because it is the history and life of the Jewish people in those days.
6 volumes of Shalom Aleichem had been published in the Soviet era.
A later Jewish writer of the 20th century, who wrote in Russian is - Isaac Babel. He praised the Jewish gangster in Odessa. His hero- Mishka Yaponchik. But Babel has praised the revolution as well. He has a series of novels about the Red Army, but there also are heroic Jews who fought in the revolution. There are two movies based on the novel of Babel , which are quite successful.
I am more interested in Shalom Aleichem, I need to find time to read his novels, but I agree that for Jews it is much more interesting to read, because it is the history and life of the Jewish people in those days.
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Athanasiy
Guest
Very interesting.
Marcionism
I can see it
…"This belief was in some ways similar to Gnostic Christian theology; notably, both are dualistic, that is, they posit opposing gods, forces, or principles: one higher, spiritual, and “good”, and the other lower, material, and “evil”
I can’t understand , what is Gnostic , there?
No, no body denies that “evil has ndependent existence”, just people wonder why so many rituals are on the blood, and why God always wants the shedding of blood?
Some “dialogues with God” in the Old Testament historical books are actually perceived by these people as a dialogues with the Devil.
By the way for many former Christians if we add a conflict of co-existence with the Jewish people, provokes not only Marcionism but a departure from Christianity.
I know a few thinkers nationalists who openly say that Christianity is a religion created by Jews for the enslavement.
Among Marcionists there are even University professors, and among those who adhere to local folk beliefs and consider Christianity an enslaving faith, are also philosophers and ideologists.
I personally think that the local folk beliefs have interesting moral and spiritual points, but Christianity, or Judeo-Christianity certainly had made a far greater contribution in the moral and spiritual life of the people.
Marcionism
I can see it
…"This belief was in some ways similar to Gnostic Christian theology; notably, both are dualistic, that is, they posit opposing gods, forces, or principles: one higher, spiritual, and “good”, and the other lower, material, and “evil”
I can’t understand , what is Gnostic , there?
No, no body denies that “evil has ndependent existence”, just people wonder why so many rituals are on the blood, and why God always wants the shedding of blood?
Some “dialogues with God” in the Old Testament historical books are actually perceived by these people as a dialogues with the Devil.
By the way for many former Christians if we add a conflict of co-existence with the Jewish people, provokes not only Marcionism but a departure from Christianity.
I know a few thinkers nationalists who openly say that Christianity is a religion created by Jews for the enslavement.
Among Marcionists there are even University professors, and among those who adhere to local folk beliefs and consider Christianity an enslaving faith, are also philosophers and ideologists.
I personally think that the local folk beliefs have interesting moral and spiritual points, but Christianity, or Judeo-Christianity certainly had made a far greater contribution in the moral and spiritual life of the people.
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Midge
Guest
I would have to say that none of the New Testament is anti-Semitic, and a growing number of Jews agree, as the release of the “NRSV Jewish Annotated New Testament” demonstrates.
The New Testament is a product of its time, written mostly by Jews (with the exception of the gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles), and may appear anti-Semitic at times only because Jewish Christians appear to have been in competition with non-Christian Jews for Roman approval of freedom of worship.
Under Roman law, Jews were exempt from offering sacrifice to pagan gods and paying the penalty that went with it (often capital punishment). Christians may have wanted to be validly recognized as Jews early on and thus be allowed the same privileges, but Rome would not give Christians such recognition.
Therefore, with this is mind, the older the text in the New Testament, one has to realize that Christians were receiving more and more persecution from Rome and growing a gap wider and wider from their Jewish brethren–and thus the type of language you often come across. Christians felt they were as entitled to the same rights and freedoms as any Jew, especially since in their eyes the Jewish Messiah had come and they were his only real followers.
But Rome and Jewry disagreed. And thus you can see this growing hatred and disagreement from the Christian side in the New Testament expressions as time progressed. It’s not anti-Semitic because at the same time you read Christians wanting to call themselves Jews, such as at Revelation 2:9 & 3:9.
The Gospel of John is from a very late time of composition. It draws the Jewish clergy as caricatures, placing drama from the 2nd century into first century situations when Jesus was alive to explain how Christians might deal with the then present fight for the right to the title “Jew” in Roman civilization when that Gospel was composed around 100 C.E. or perhaps just a little later.
The New Testament is a product of its time, written mostly by Jews (with the exception of the gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles), and may appear anti-Semitic at times only because Jewish Christians appear to have been in competition with non-Christian Jews for Roman approval of freedom of worship.
Under Roman law, Jews were exempt from offering sacrifice to pagan gods and paying the penalty that went with it (often capital punishment). Christians may have wanted to be validly recognized as Jews early on and thus be allowed the same privileges, but Rome would not give Christians such recognition.
Therefore, with this is mind, the older the text in the New Testament, one has to realize that Christians were receiving more and more persecution from Rome and growing a gap wider and wider from their Jewish brethren–and thus the type of language you often come across. Christians felt they were as entitled to the same rights and freedoms as any Jew, especially since in their eyes the Jewish Messiah had come and they were his only real followers.
But Rome and Jewry disagreed. And thus you can see this growing hatred and disagreement from the Christian side in the New Testament expressions as time progressed. It’s not anti-Semitic because at the same time you read Christians wanting to call themselves Jews, such as at Revelation 2:9 & 3:9.
The Gospel of John is from a very late time of composition. It draws the Jewish clergy as caricatures, placing drama from the 2nd century into first century situations when Jesus was alive to explain how Christians might deal with the then present fight for the right to the title “Jew” in Roman civilization when that Gospel was composed around 100 C.E. or perhaps just a little later.
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laylow
Guest
Well, the reality that Pilate becomes more innocent in the later Gospels (especially John), it is quite clear that the Christians tried to pin Jesus’ death on the Jews.
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DannyM65
Guest
Hi there,
I am new to this forum.
I liked your initial post.
I would like to ask you (in all seriousness), why are you, or, consider yourself, to be Jewish?
Best Wishes,
Danny
I am new to this forum.
I liked your initial post.
I would like to ask you (in all seriousness), why are you, or, consider yourself, to be Jewish?
Best Wishes,
Danny
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Midge
Guest
You are correct.
While Rambam was not alive during the 16th century during the time of the Protestants coming on the scene, it was his work that came to light during that period that helped Jews counter their proselytizing efforts that would come much later, during mostly the 18th to 19th centuries.
In fact, the great Protestant proselytizing of the Jews eventually led up and climaxed into the Holocaust of the early 20th century. I was writing thinking readers were aware of this aspect of history as I did mention that after the Holocaust Jews began to return to speaking about Judaism in ways that predated Maimonides.
While Rambam was not alive during the 16th century during the time of the Protestants coming on the scene, it was his work that came to light during that period that helped Jews counter their proselytizing efforts that would come much later, during mostly the 18th to 19th centuries.
In fact, the great Protestant proselytizing of the Jews eventually led up and climaxed into the Holocaust of the early 20th century. I was writing thinking readers were aware of this aspect of history as I did mention that after the Holocaust Jews began to return to speaking about Judaism in ways that predated Maimonides.
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BartholomewB
Guest
The Jewish Annotated New Testament is on my list but I haven’t gotten around to it yet. Do the editors clearly state that Luke was not Jewish? From my own (not very extensive) reading on the subject, the consensus seems to be that he was not a native of Judea, but he could have been from one of the Diaspora communities. Whether or not he was Jewish is a question that is now impossible to answer with any degree of certainty one way or the other, according to most of the books I’ve read.
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Midge
Guest
Early believers in Jesus as the Messiah saw themselves as the Jewish nation of Israel, the nation of Judah, whether Hebrew or Gentile. So to claim the nation of Jews as guilty of killing Jesus would make themselves guilty too.
Instead, academics say, it appears that Jewish Christians had very negative views of Jewish non-Christians, even blaming some of them for Jesus’ being handed over to the Romans to be crucified.
Did it go further than this? Likely not on a national level, but on a personal level, perhaps yes. And did the Christians hate these particular Jews? Some of them may have. But some of them obviously lived the gospel of Jesus’ love and forgiveness even here. It’s hard to say who loved and who hated exactly.
Of course, as I mentioned above, I do not offer my personal convictions or views on matters. If you have further objections, I suggest you take it up with the scholars behind “The Annotated Jewish New Testament.”
Instead, academics say, it appears that Jewish Christians had very negative views of Jewish non-Christians, even blaming some of them for Jesus’ being handed over to the Romans to be crucified.
Did it go further than this? Likely not on a national level, but on a personal level, perhaps yes. And did the Christians hate these particular Jews? Some of them may have. But some of them obviously lived the gospel of Jesus’ love and forgiveness even here. It’s hard to say who loved and who hated exactly.
Of course, as I mentioned above, I do not offer my personal convictions or views on matters. If you have further objections, I suggest you take it up with the scholars behind “The Annotated Jewish New Testament.”
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Midge
Guest
The general consensus among academics is the Luke was a Gentile.
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laylow
Guest
I have no objection, just curious as to what people think. There are new testament scholars who believe that these Christians used these tactics in the Gospels to hammer home that the Jews rejected their own Messiah.
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laylow
Guest
Sorry off topic, have you seen the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel? Of course the name Midge made me think of it.
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Midge
Guest
I actually have. And yes, I get asked about that a lot since the show aired.
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Moses613
Guest
Yes, there has to be a specific reason and not everyone gets reincarnated. I’ve heard some rabbis say though that in our age, everyone had a previous life. Not sure why. It’s not a universal opinion, of course.
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Moses613
Guest
Yes, I’ll have to get back to you on that.
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