[ask] sufficient grace for everyone is dogma?

[Liulaoshi]

Hi Everyone, I am a newbie here.
First I’m sorry for bad grammar because english is not my mother language.
I have been recently in a discussion with a sedevecantist friend.
She said that God don’t give sufficient grace to non-catholic.

But i remember it’s a catholic dogma which she refuse.
I try to explain her that’s a catholic dogma.

but she challenge me to prove it.
she asks me to show her an infallible church document which declare that God give everyone sufficient grace to attain salvation.
She asks me to tell her what’s infallible church council which declare it so.

Can you all help me ? thank you so much.

May Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy blessed Mother always be wih you.

 

[adamhovey1988]

First I’m sorry for bad grammar because english is not my mother language.

Don’t mention it, we have people from all over the world here. (I am American, and speak English as a first, but not only language).

I have been recently in a discussion with a sedevecantist friend.

I’d be careful with that

She said that God don’t give sufficienct grace to non-catholic.

What does she mean by that? I could be mistaken, but that sounds very calvinist.

But i remember it’s a catholic dogma which she refuse.
I try to explain her that’s a catholic dogma.

but she challenge me to prove it.
she asks me to show her an infallible church document which declare that God give everyone sufficient grace to attain salvation.

If she is a sedevacantist, she probably would accept anything after a certain year, anyway.

She asks me to tell her what’s infallible church council which declare it so.

Can you all help me ? thank you so much.

May Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy blessed Mother always be wih you.

I am not an expert in this area, but I will wait here with you for someone to answer.

 

[Zaccheus]

Does you friend truly believe that God does not want everyone to be saved?
If God desires that all be saved why would God withhold from anyone the grace they need for salvation?

If you friend believes Christ died on the Cross to save us, then how would God deny anyone the chance to be saved?

 

[Liulaoshi]

Thank You so much Mr.Adam, I really appreciate your companion.
Yes, my friend is a sedevecantist. Radical Sedevecantist.
She asks me so many things and i can’t answer hers.
She rejects Vatican II and says that Post-Vatican II’s Church is Evil product.
I try to help her, but i can’t…
i don’ have sufficient knowledge to explain my faith to her.
Yes, I believe that There is no Salvation outside The Church, I fully accept it as a Dogma.
But i believe also that God give everyone sufficient grace to find the truth in Catholic Church, I believe God love everyone and try so hard to make everyone believe in the Church which built by His Only Begotten Son.
That’s why i need help from anyone in this forum to make her back to Her Former Faith.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[Liulaoshi]

Thank you so much Mr Zaccheus,
Yes My friend Trully believe it.
She said that non catholic all will perished in eternal damnation.
She said that Pope Francis is not the real pope also.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[Vico]

…. she asks me to show her an infallible church document which declare that God give everyone sufficient grace to attain salvation. …

There are a few documents from the councils of the Catholic Church that show the dogmas. One place to find these are in the Denzinger book, Sources of Catholic Dogma. The online source is:

http://patristica.net/denzinger/

Despite men’s sins God truly and earnestly desires the salvation of all men. (Sent. fidei proxima.) – see Council of Quiersy No. 318 Denzinger and Council of Trent No. 819 in Denzinge, and No. 1294 Denzinger Pope Alexander, Condemned in a Decr. of the Holy Office, Dec. 7, 1690

The sinner can and must prepare himself by the help of actual grace for the reception of the grace by which he is justified. (De fide.) – See Council of Trent No. 819 in Denzinger.

God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.) – See Second Council of Orange and Council of Trent No. 828 in Denzinger.

The phrasing above comes from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott.

Two more teachings (common and certain) and not listed above are also given in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma

b) God gives all the faithful who are sinners sufficient grace (gratia saltem remote sufficiens) for conversion. (Sent. communis.) – Lateran Council IV, in 1215.
c) God gives all innocent unbelievers (infideles negativi) sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.) – Pope Alexander VIII, in 1690.

 

[dscath]

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

In my opinion sufficient grace is OFFERED to everyone, the offer of sufficient grace IS NOT ACCEPTED by everyone.

 

[Genesis315]

Just to add to Vico’s post above, which provides the dogmatic texts, God does not necessarily give sufficient grace for salvation to each person all at once. For example, he may first give us the grace to pray. With that we can pray for the grace to follow the commandments, the grace of final perseverance, etc. He also doesn’t necessarily give us all the same grace at the same time–in fact, it may only happen at the eleventh hour for some (see Christ’s parable of the worker’s in the vineyard).

So a person who is a non-Catholic today may not have received sufficient grace (yet) to be converted and saved, but that doesn’t mean God will deny them what is needed to come to salvation.

In opposition to Protestants who similarly claimed that the existence of non-Christians meant that God did not give sufficient grace to all, St. Robert Bellarmine explained:

De Gratis et Libero Arbitrio, lib. 2, cap. 8

This argument only proves that not all people receive the help they need to believe and be converted immediately. It does not, however, prove that some people are deprived, absolutely speaking, of sufficient help for salvation. For the pagans to whom the Gospel has not yet been preached, can know from His creatures that God exists; then they can be stimulated by God, through His prevenient grace, to believe in God, that He exists and that He is the rewarder of those who seek Him: and from such faith, they can be inspired, under the guidance and help of God, to pray and give alms and in this way obtain from God a still greater light of faith, which God will communicate to them, either by Himself or through angels or through men.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Christ said in Scripture “My grace is sufficient”. I take Him at His word.