Asking a father's permission to court his daughter?

[dakotagirl]

Lol…Whatevergirl is so right…it’s super retro!! I don’t think either way is wrong, but at least this way you would stand out from the crowd!!

 

[whatevergirl]

lol–and maybe dropping a handkerchief on the ground for a gentleman to pick up to know a woman is interested, might make a come back too. Ok…maybe not. When it comes to romance, I would have liked to have been born in the 1800’s.

 

[purplesunshine]

As a person who have loving but not so well behaved parents i’m glad guys don’t do this. I doubt I’d ever get married. My parents can make 20 questions look like a cerial box quiz.

 

[dakotagirl]

As a person who have loving but not so well behaved parents i’m glad guys don’t do this. I doubt I’d ever get married. My parents can make 20 questions look like a cerial box quiz.

Yes ma’am, I hear you. If the girl’s relationship with her parents is strained, maybe it’s not such a good idea.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Of course if the guy and girl are under age 19 or so… well, I think the little rats need to come in and ask permission and be supervised. And trusted as far as they can be thrown. At least until the young ladies are old enough to hopefully see through the jerks and users.

But the OP is in his late 20s. This antiquated dating is to me “playacting” from a long-gone era. Back then men felt more free to beat their wives too. Should we go back to that? And in some cultures, the younger daughters couldn’t get married till the older ones had. That would be a disaster in some families!

 

[purplesunshine]

Yes ma’am, I hear you. If the girl’s relationship with her parents is strained, maybe it’s not such a good idea.

Its not strained…its just that my parents, dad especially, are curious extroverts who can be judgmental and I’m a silly, compasionate introvert. I just really think that no one would date me after meeting my parents and not getting to know me first.

 

[whatevergirl]

Of course if the guy and girl are under age 19 or so… well, I think the little rats need to come in and ask permission and be supervised. And trusted as far as they can be thrown. At least until the young ladies are old enough to hopefully see through the jerks and users.

But the OP is in his late 20s. This antiquated dating is to me “playacting” from a long-gone era. Back then men felt more free to beat their wives too. Should we go back to that? And in some cultures, the younger daughters couldn’t get married till the older ones had. That would be a disaster in some families!

*Good points–back in the older days, while there were some charming antics that I wish would make a come back, there was a whole host of negatives that basically pushed women down…and certainly, I am glad women have the rights we have today. (that goes without saying) *

 

[BadTurkey]

Of course if the guy and girl are under age 19 or so… well, I think the little rats need to come in and ask permission and be supervised. And trusted as far as they can be thrown. At least until the young ladies are old enough to hopefully see through the jerks and users.

But the OP is in his late 20s. This antiquated dating is to me “playacting” from a long-gone era. Back then men felt more free to beat their wives too. Should we go back to that? And in some cultures, the younger daughters couldn’t get married till the older ones had. That would be a disaster in some families!

Couldn’t agree more.

 

[whatevergirl]

Its not strained…its just that my parents, dad especially, are curious extroverts who can be judgmental and I’m a silly, compasionate introvert. I just really think that no one would date me after meeting my parents and not getting to know me first.

*Yes, if this were to be put into action…the girl needs to be asked out first. I wouldn’t appreciate a man coming to my husband asking to date our daughter, and she didn’t even know! lol :ehh:

Imagine arranged marriages? I had a few aunts, rest their souls, who were married in Italy, through arranged set ups. And they were woefully unhappy. Can’t imagine not choosing who I’d marry! *

 

[flyingfish]

I think we all have a very romanticized view of “the old days”. I really doubt it was so beautiful and touching. Women likely often had relatively little say in who they married, and were unable to marry for love. Things like dowries and marriage for family alliances also played a part.

To hear people talk one might get the idea that “the old days” included a superb yet free matchmaking service where everyone could find the love of their life with relatively little effort.

 

[whatevergirl]

I think we all have a very romanticized view of “the old days”. I really doubt it was so beautiful and touching. Women likely often had relatively little say in who they married, and were unable to marry for love. Things like dowries and marriage for family alliances also played a part.

To hear people talk one might get the idea that “the old days” included a superb yet free matchmaking service where everyone could find the love of their life with relatively little effort.

*You read my mind. lol
Seriously…much truth in what you say, as per my post above, about my aunts who largely were forced to marry men in Italy, 20 yrs their seniors, and were abused, etc. So, why do we have that phrase…’‘the good old days?’’ If they weren’t so good, afterall.

I think back to my own dad, and mom’s courtship. My dad asked my mom’s dad for permission to date her, but of course, after asking my mom out first, and realizing things were getting serious. He wore a suit a lot of the time on their dates, my mom in beautiful modest dresses, with white gloves! Those are the good times, I speak of…I only know these stories from what they told my sister, when they were alive, and I was little. *

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Let’s also not forget how complicated that can get, asking dad permission to court his daughter. Remember not long ago a poster and about 45 pages of drama when the father refused to allow this and the daughter went along with it and the poor young man was strung along to the point of heartsickness.

There were downsides to that whole ritual too.

 

[chevalier]

I am a man in his late 20’s. Is it still appropriate for an adult courtship to begin by asking the lady’s father’s permission to court his daughter? I feel more comfortable talking to men than women, and it would give me more courage to talk to a lady if I knew I had made my intentions clear to her father. Would it seem completely inappropriate though?

You can’t solve the matters of your heart between men. Courting is not done between men. You can’t avoid difficult conversations with a woman by talking to her father. The father *never *has authority over matters of the heart of his daughter and at your age, which is presumable not that much older than your prospective girlfriend’s, the father does not have authority over things such as curfews and such like.

On a more profound level, I feel caught between two ways of engaging in the search for a wife. On the one hand, I can see the advantages of the old-fashioned ways, with their strict stages (father’s permission, followed by a period of courting (chaperoned) then a period of ‘walking out’ (unchaperoned), a series of parties at which the man and woman’s friends offer their advice, then another permission from the father, then engagement, leading quickly to marriage) which I can see would lead quickly and efficiently to marriage, and is deeply rooted in tradition and community.

The father’s permission cannot supplant the daughter’s consent and the lack of the father’s permission cannot remove the woman’s consent.

Quickly and efficiently leading to marriage is *not *more important than making sure that the woman has made a *free *decision and is offering *full and free *consent.

Quickly and efficiently leading to marriage is not more important than making sure one is making the right choice, either, whether one is a man or a woman.

On the other hand, the one and only serious relationship I have ever had was much more spontaneous and romantic, we didn’t make a contract, we were in love with eachother, and, although I’d be more careful not to over-step the line this time, it felt like a relationship I could care about, and we got to know eachother on our own terms, it never felt like a burden or a duty.

So you clearly see.

I also worry that going too ‘traditional’ is in fact about living in a fantasy world which no longer exists, even in mainstream Catholic parish communities.

Yes. And I’m not sure it’s a bad thing. The father’s strong presence removed some dangers and temptations, but already in the 19th century did the popes remind people that a woman was *not *“perpetually underage”. A woman is an adult being just like you or I. By the way, traditional customs have much to do with dynastic reasoning, it starting from the king and going down to the last unfree tenant. Marriage brought families together, produced heirs of mixed lineage, affected inheritance and so on. The king wouldn’t leave his daughter free to marry whomever she wished, instead he used her to forge an alliance or at least there was some leeway as to the exact person but there were requirements of suitable standing on the candidate’s part. The lords repeated the pattern, the gentry did and everyone did. But these days we don’t normally run dynasties.

This said, *don’t *ignore the father. He *is *an authority figure, deserves respect and you need to have healthy dealings with him. It would be great to have his support, too, but don’t allow yourself to try to settle the matter with him rather than with the woman.

I have maybe exaggerated a little here, but you know what I mean, there are many traditionalists who add to the Church’s teaching on purity and marriage a ‘system’, often based in some loose way around the traditions of a pre-modern agrarian society, with rules to be followed to aid discernment and avoid occasions of sin. While many of these systems have much to commend them on a rational level, they do seem to sap dating of its’ romance and spontaneity. I guess this is a general tendency I have toward cultivating a persona which embraces ultra-traditional expressions of spirituality, but a deeper private revulsion at the joylessness and pharisaism I perceive in this persona of mine.

I tip my hat to your honesty with yourself. :tiphat: There are sometimes such moments when we need to choose between traditions which are dear to our heart and the requirements of reason which might at times be more in line with a modern view than a traditional one (although I reject the idea of “going with the times” as being a top priority). I suppose some of the traditional people find a way to combine the traditions involving the father with the woman’s freedom and equality, but I submit that following a custom outwardly while inside thinking it’s just a facade, is hypocrisy, even if it’s well-intended. If a custom is deficient it needs to be changed rather than subverted while keeping the appearance of following it.

As for “rules” which people make and add to the rules that God made in the commandments and the Church expounded via the teaching of the Popes and Councils, a line must be drawn between the Magisterium of the Church and the creations of lay propriety. Yes, we are called to respect the laws of the land, its customs and so on and St. Paul explicitly says that love obeys the good customs. But coming up with a set of artificial rules that serve first of all a ritualistic purpose and the purpose of satiating people’s need of a rigid system (some people have that need, others don’t or less so), is not the answer. And let’s not confuse a zeal for purity with a zeal for 1890.

 

[DL82]

let’s not confuse a zeal for purity with a zeal for 1890.

I like this!

I think part of this comes down to a stupid tendency I have to make things less fun than they need to be:shrug:

I suppose back in the days of matchmakers and dowries, people married folks without any of the giddy rollercoaster of emotional love. That didn’t make their choice any less free, any less complete, it just meant that it was often more about sacrificial love than passionate love, about finding someone to be good breeding stock, to be a good companion, a good bread-winner or home-maker. The idea that people learn to love their spouses, which is still seen in South Asian culture and was common in Europe until the Great War, just has a certain sad beauty about it.

Maybe I identify with that sadness because I feel like I’ve thrown away the one chance I had at the giddy rollercoaster of modern love, and now I am just happy to settle for one who will be a warm companion, support in my work and spiritual life, and mother of my children. That sounds rather sad, to talk of settling for such a thing, but I feel like, without the distortion of feelings, I will be able to love her more. With my ex, I was never able to answer the question ‘if I didn’t feel for her, would I love her anyway?’ and without knowing that I can never know if I truly loved her or just used her for my own pleasure. I just feel like I’m stripping away the Hollywood fantasy version of love and facing reality here, the reality which the majority of cultures have known for the majority of time.

At the same time, I’m hearing all this stuff as I’m writing it, and thinking, ‘cheer up you miserable git!’

 

[chevalier]

While it’s true that it would be wonderful for the father - saves big on shotgun shells - the guy is not looking to date the father, but his daughter.

And those are expensive!

Some people may say the courtship system is sexist and old-fashioned. However, I think the modern way of dating involves a lot of broken hearts and wasted time. I did not participate in the courtship system, but my husband did ask my mother’s permission to date me and for her blessing in proposing marriage. (My father isn’t in the picture.) I think it takes a lot of courage to do that, and shows respect and honor. But I suppose all this depends on the girl in question. Just my opinion!

Well, to be honest, I felt my post above didn’t fully reflect my sentiment on the matter and I was about to write that well, it didn’t say I never would do that, that circumstances mattered a lot and the attitudes also. In your example, I see you’re taking it in a spiritual way and that I find agreeable. Parents do have a certain spiritual responsibility for their children and a certain link which is not like between siblings, and marriage marks a big turn there. In a way, when a man marries a woman, he does remove her from the spiritual care of her father as the big man and himself becomes the big man in her life (not eliminating the father but affecting the focus). In this context it would seem proper.

However, please note that in this context, the permission would not be the father’s personal right nor would it serve his interest or his “dynastic” policies. It would be something to make sure the daughter doesn’t pass into irresponsible hands and withholding that “permission” for selfish reasons would be sufficient cause to go without it. This *should *be in line with the “secular traditionalists” and if they accord the father the right to dispose of his daughter like of material goods or otherwise for his own benefits or for the furtherment of his own private ideas about life (e.g. no men with less than 1.5 yards chest cavity, no men without an advanced degree, no men who haven’t done X or Y, no men who don’t come from a respectable family…), then they are wrong. And no going over the woman’s head whether by the candidate or by the father.

Live in this century. If you are a man of honor, you don’t need chaperones to protect the purity of the woman you love or avoid near occasions of sin.

Yes, and I’d be offended by a contrary suggestion.

Lol…Whatevergirl is so right…it’s super retro!! I don’t think either way is wrong, but at least this way you would stand out from the crowd!!

And that’s precisely the motivation which worries me.

I could wear a sword and talk to the father in Middle English. So what? It’s 2009!

lol–and maybe dropping a handkerchief on the ground for a gentleman to pick up to know a woman is interested, might make a come back too.

That one I want back! Actually, there are women who still remember some of those “tricks” or invent new ones as they go. I have in me some fond appreciation of that.

And in some cultures, the younger daughters couldn’t get married till the older ones had. That would be a disaster in some families!

That’s a prime example of some of the old “rules” being those of expediency and not of morality. Granted, if the man wanted a supportive traditional landlady to pass a share of good blood and good education to his children and the woman wanted an honourable husband who would be a respectable man and provide respectable living to her and the children, and the romantic things mattered less… Say, if Lord X wants *a *daughter of Duke Y, then sure, let him take the oldest one that’s still single instead of picking the youngest! But most of us are neither Lord X nor a daughter of Duke Y.

 

[chevalier]

I like this!

:tiphat:

I think part of this comes down to a stupid tendency I have to make things less fun than they need to be:shrug:

I so roger that. Wet Blanket off line, I have some clowns on my left.

I suppose back in the days of matchmakers and dowries, people married folks without any of the giddy rollercoaster of emotional love. That didn’t make their choice any less free, any less complete, it just meant that it was often more about sacrificial love than passionate love, about finding someone to be good breeding stock, to be a good companion, a good bread-winner or home-maker.

Or, in other words, they were looking for someone to marry, simply put.

The idea that people learn to love their spouses, which is still seen in South Asian culture and was common in Europe until the Great War, just has a certain sad beauty about it.

For all I know about traditional Europe, marriage out of love was regarded as some great but achievable only be a few, getting out of the whole rest a nostalgic sigh before their returned to their daily routine with a spouse chosen for utilitarian concerns.

Maybe I identify with that sadness because I feel like I’ve thrown away the one chance I had at the giddy rollercoaster of modern love, and now I am just happy to settle for one who will be a warm companion, support in my work and spiritual life, and mother of my children. That sounds rather sad, to talk of settling for such a thing,

That thing is no “such a thing”, it is extremely important, a very high charge and something honourable to be esteemed. There is no settling there; in fact, it’s already an achievement to become deserving of that (like we men ever do). But what’s settling is settling for someone you aren’t interested in just because you think you won’t have “better”.

but I feel like, without the distortion of feelings, I will be able to love her more. With my ex, I was never able to answer the question ‘if I didn’t feel for her, would I love her anyway?’ and without knowing that I can never know if I truly loved her or just used her for my own pleasure. I just feel like I’m stripping away the Hollywood fantasy version of love and facing reality here, the reality which the majority of cultures have known for the majority of time.

You will probably yet spend long hours thinking about that. I wish you a satisfying conclusion.

At the same time, I’m hearing all this stuff as I’m writing it, and thinking, ‘cheer up you miserable git!’

I hear thee. I mean ye. I mean you. Errr…Whereat ye all stare?

Tag along, bro’! It’s gonna be better after you’ve done some thinking and simply breathed some air. I suggest a relaxing walk for now and focusing on work for a while later. I’ve finally got around to jotting down the Ph.D. paper myself that saw 8 pages in 2.5 years.

He wore a suit a lot of the time on their dates, my mom in beautiful modest dresses, with white gloves!

That’s a beautiful image.

Let’s also not forget how complicated that can get, asking dad permission to court his daughter. Remember not long ago a poster and about 45 pages of drama when the father refused to allow this and the daughter went along with it and the poor young man was strung along to the point of heartsickness.

There were downsides to that whole ritual too.

We haven’t heard from the poor dood for a while.

 

[Guitar]

I think we all have a very romanticized view of “the old days”. I really doubt it was so beautiful and touching. Women likely often had relatively little say in who they married, and were unable to marry for love. Things like dowries and marriage for family alliances also played a part.

To hear people talk one might get the idea that “the old days” included a superb yet free matchmaking service where everyone could find the love of their life with relatively little effort.

The whole notion of asking permission to court (unless it is pure tokenism) inherently acknowledges and accepts either (or both) of one of two things:

1. the parents/friends/family have some deep understanding of the girl’s nature, better than her own or at least well in tune with her own, and therefore some ability to discern who would be the perfect spouse for her and to function as “gatekeepers” who pick out things (good and bad) she can’t be trusted to see for herself, OR
2. even if point 1) is a complete fiction, they are entitled to a say in the matter regardless.

There would have been no point asking my father’s/parents’ permission to court me.

My father would have said “it is entirely a matter for her to decide”. He had his personal views but fully acknowledged that I am an adult human being responsible for my own decisions and that those decisions should be made free of complicating emotional or personal pressure in either direction.

My mother would have “refused” permission to anyone who was not an exact carbon copy of my father, based on her complete inability to even begin to see I had no need of, in fact fled screaming from, what she needed in a husband.

And what would my suitor have done had they refused the requested permission?

Gone away with his tail between his legs? What would that have said about his interest in me to start with?

Or continued to court having been “refused” permission"? Why ask my parents in the first place then, if he was going to court anyway regardless of what they said?

It makes no sense to me either way, and on top of that kinda gives the impression it is between him and them - umm, no sorry, the go/no-go decision rests with me, actually.

I can accept it as a survival mechanism in societies where parents could decide for their children who they did and didn’t marry, or at least could make things socially and economically difficult to the point where going along with parents’ wishes was the only thing that made practical living viable. Or, where the circumstances of life were such that one could truly understand parents wanting to discourage particular choices - stories abound of mean and nasty parents trying to thwart the course of true love between their daughter and her sailor sweetheart, but on the other hand I can truly imagine a parent not wanting a daughter to be left alone for two, five, or even ten or twelve years at a time, as sometimes happened, with no certain knowledge of whether her husband was still alive or would ever be seen again, and with him home for no more than a few months at best when he was around. But, as Liberanosomalo says, though, most of us don’t live there anymore.

As far as I am concerned, any man who thought permission to court had anything to do with any family member other than me would have demonstrated from day one that he was not someone I could share the rest of my life with. Either he is going through the motions prepared to bat on regardless of the answer, or he does not accept that I am a self-determining adult human being and the person best qualified to determine the choice of my life partner.

I don’t think for a minute that most young men wondering about this question and tradition intend any insult or put-down to the object of their affections. I just don’t think they’ve been able to put themselves in her shoes and see what it looks like from the other side of the equation.

(NB I am leaving aside cases such as Libernanosomalo has mentioned before where everybody that knows the girl has bad vibes. That is not what I am talking about here.)

 

[flyingfish]

I like this!

I think part of this comes down to a stupid tendency I have to make things less fun than they need to be:shrug:

I suppose back in the days of matchmakers and dowries, people married folks without any of the giddy rollercoaster of emotional love. That didn’t make their choice any less free, any less complete, it just meant that it was often more about sacrificial love than passionate love, about finding someone to be good breeding stock, to be a good companion, a good bread-winner or home-maker. The idea that people learn to love their spouses, which is still seen in South Asian culture and was common in Europe until the Great War, just has a certain sad beauty about it.

Maybe I identify with that sadness because I feel like I’ve thrown away the one chance I had at the giddy rollercoaster of modern love, and now I am just happy to settle for one who will be a warm companion, support in my work and spiritual life, and mother of my children. That sounds rather sad, to talk of settling for such a thing, but I feel like, without the distortion of feelings, I will be able to love her more. With my ex, I was never able to answer the question ‘if I didn’t feel for her, would I love her anyway?’ and without knowing that I can never know if I truly loved her or just used her for my own pleasure. I just feel like I’m stripping away the Hollywood fantasy version of love and facing reality here, the reality which the majority of cultures have known for the majority of time.

At the same time, I’m hearing all this stuff as I’m writing it, and thinking, ‘cheer up you miserable git!’

Why don’t you acquire the services of a professional matchmaker? From everything you wrote it seems to me that you aren’t interested in pre-industrial society courtship ritual but simply have trouble dating and meeting women. A professional matchmaker can help you meet women without you having to go places to find them.

With my ex, I was never able to answer the question ‘if I didn’t feel for her, would I love her anyway?’

I don’t understand what you mean, the “feeling for her” is love. You want to have that feeling, it’s what makes you want to be with the woman. Without it relationships are hard to sustain.

 

[DL82]

Why don’t you acquire the services of a professional matchmaker? From everything you wrote it seems to me that you aren’t interested in pre-industrial society courtship ritual but simply have trouble dating and meeting women. A professional matchmaker can help you meet women without you having to go places to find them.

I don’t understand what you mean, the “feeling for her” is love. You want to have that feeling, it’s what makes you want to be with the woman. Without it relationships are hard to sustain.

I don’t have any trouble meeting women, I think I have several opportunities to date faithful Catholic ladies who I know. In fact, I am currently discerning with a good woman, I can see how she would be good for me, and how I could be good for her. We are very different, but both have very busy independent lives, and neither of us feel the need to be in constant contact or to be too mushy about our love (neither of us trust our feelings, me because I don’t have that feeling, her because she’s been hurt by men she’s loved in the past). We have both agreed that we need to get to know eachother better before we decide whether to date or not. It’s a long distance thing, which is difficult given how little we talk, but I know we keep thinking of eachother and praying for eachother, I admire her love for her family and her outgoing social side, she admires my devotion to prayer and service to the Church, so between us I can see how we could build a well-rounded household of the faith, but… I’d like to agree with you saying that the ‘feeling is love’, and it does feel kinda hard without it, but I know that love, really, objectively what it is, not the way it subjectively expresses itself within our culture, but it’s essence, is to seek the good of the other, it’s an act of will, and a gift from God, not merely an emotional attachment. I wish I had the constancy of my grandparents’ and great grandparents’ generation who could learn to love eachother, grow into love, not just ‘fall for’ someone, but I don’t, and it makes me sad.

 

[iluvmybabies]

I’m hispanic and I am supposed to have approval of father no matter what age I am…but this time I decided not to follow through…It’s been working out ok, we are engaged on our own terms and keep our families updated on our situations…

If that’s her wishes for you to court her in that manner then go for it if not then don’t even bother! That is very romantic of you, my fiance wanted to do that too but I broke tradition and we try to work things out and have a great friendship above all else!

i think that’s the key start as friends or grow with friendship and continue on!

Good luck and GOD BLESS!