Asking a father's permission to court his daughter?

[flyingfish]

I’d like to agree with you saying that the ‘feeling is love’, and it does feel kinda hard without it, but I know that love, really, objectively what it is, not the way it subjectively expresses itself within our culture, but it’s essence, is to seek the good of the other, it’s an act of will, and a gift from God, not merely an emotional attachment. I wish I had the constancy of my grandparents’ and great grandparents’ generation who could learn to love eachother, grow into love, not just ‘fall for’ someone, but I don’t, and it makes me sad.

The kind of love that seeks the good of the other, an act of will is love we should have for every single human being. That is what it means to “love your neighbor as yourself.”

To have a happy and successful marriage you need something more than this kind of neighborly love. You need romantic love. You need attraction, you need desire.

Can you make due without? Probably. I don’t see why you would want to try though, it’s far better to have it, when people lose it they frequenly divorce.

 

[Kindness]

I’m sure the “good old days” are just like now - some good, some bad. In the so-called up tight Victorian era prostitution was an enormous trade in London. I remember reading historic texts from that era too about how horrified some of the more upstanding members of the community were to see young teenagers rolling around and doing unmentionable things which each other during the haymaking season in the countryside in broad daylight.

Human nature has not changed and romance, desire, and sexual attraction were just as present in all forms in the past as now. Marrying for romantic love is a strong theme in most cultures and societies and histories. One strong reason families were more involved in marriage was the total lack of social security. You had to be sure basic needs would be met. Would this young man be able to feed and provide shelter to a family? A dowry was to help a new young family establish themselves. An economic transaction yes, but necessary for survival not as a quaint custom.

So much changed because of industrialization due to opportunity. Before then in the western world people lived in one community for most of their lives and transportation and communication were very slow. It could take you 3-4 hours to drive your cart out of your valley and into the market town to trade, what now might be a fifteen minute car drive. People generally had a very good knowledge of people in their local communities.

Now that we can all move around freely and are not dependent on the opinion of a small community many of the older customs just don’t make sense. It sounds like the OP is looking for the security of the past in a young-fogey kind of way as the current ways of meeting someone are more haphazard and intimidating. I would say don’t give up on romantic, passionate love and think you just had one shot at it. Don’t entangle yourself in lots of self imposed rules and regulations and kill the passion in yourself because of fear. I think step out, take more risks and allow yourself to be foolish, make mistakes and live a free and exciting life. None of which is incompatible with being Catholic. You are still so young! No need to decide to be middle aged due to lack of imagination.

 

[dixieagle]

I have maybe exaggerated a little here, but you know what I mean, there are many traditionalists who add to the Church’s teaching on purity and marriage a ‘system’, often based in some loose way around the traditions of a pre-modern agrarian society, with rules to be followed to aid discernment and avoid occasions of sin. While many of these systems have much to commend them on a rational level, they do seem to sap dating of its’ romance and spontaneity. I guess this is a general tendency I have toward cultivating a persona which embraces ultra-traditional expressions of spirituality, but a deeper private revulsion at the joylessness and pharisaism I perceive in this persona of mine.

First, no one has the right to “add to the Church’s teaching on purity and marriage” though folks will try. We do not live in a “pre-modern agrarian society”; it reminds me of the courtship of the John Wayne and Maureen O’Hara characters in “The Quiet Man”!

We have two grown daughters, now both married and in their twenties. They are devout, practicing Catholics. Had either of their now-husbands asked for our permission to “court”, I would have thought him odd in the extreme.

If a young lady’s parents think that she is old enough to date, then she should be mature and sensible enough to discern whether a young man is suitable (and will find out pretty quickly if he is not!) If the girl has been brought up correctly, she should be up to the task.

If the young lady is still living at home (an increasingly rare situation these days for girls in their twenties) then the boy/young man should meet her parents; that’s just siimple courtesy.

 

[dixieagle]

Of course if the guy and girl are under age 19 or so… well, I think the little rats need to come in and ask permission and be supervised. And trusted as far as they can be thrown. At least until the young ladies are old enough to hopefully see through the jerks and users.

But the OP is in his late 20s. This antiquated dating is to me “playacting” from a long-gone era. Back then men felt more free to beat their wives too. Should we go back to that? And in some cultures, the younger daughters couldn’t get married till the older ones had. That would be a disaster in some families!

(bolded text mine) I think that this is a very perceptive point. It is something that I have been pondering lately, as I see a number of Catholics (and others) adopt the dress, manner, and lifestyles of bygone eras.

I guess it is an attempt to regain the innocence of days long gone, in an era that is ever more scary and decadent. However, I’m not sure that marching briskly backwards is ever effective, though it may make one feel temporarily safer.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

But it’s playacting and bizarre, Dixieagle.

As for the notion that one needs to be on an emotional rollercoaster…



Don’t confuse an upset stomach with love.

They’ve done brain imaging on people “in love” and the same regions light up for insanity too.



Compare it to firecrackers. Whee! Sparkly. Noisy. Fun.

Would you try to heat your house by that?

Or is it better to have a slow-burning quiet hot coal fire going with an endless source of fuel?

Real love is that fire. No rollercoaster and sparks. That is the immature Hollywood love. The one that people get married in and when the thrill passes they wake up one day and this is how they look.

Love is a decision. It’s not an emotion. Emotions come and go. I would say that if one thought one had such a love once and it is gone, it wasn’t the real thing to begin with.

That emotional roller coaster can delude us and prevent us from seeing the totality of a person and the lack of wisdom of a particular choice. Back in the haymaking cultures when women were given in marriage at age 15 or 17, perhaps they did need to be protected from cads and users and grifters, and men who had wives in various villages who did not know about each other. And a discerning father could help protect his daughter from that.

15 year old girls are known to confuse rollercoasters with real love.

Real love isn’t instantaneous. It comes from real knowlege of a person, which takes time to develop. Not an emotion that comes instantly from meeting someone and attributing our deepest longings to them and projecting our hopes and dreams on a near-stranger who may not be up to the task of meeting all our emotional needs in life.

THAT is not love!

I would suggest that people who haven’t found “love” like their grandparents have maybe don’t have their grandparents’ patience. Yes, the initial spark of attraction should be there. But if it is not fueled by similar values and choices and morals, it will not catch fire. It will fizzle out. Likewise, if all you have is fire but nothing substantial to burn, it will burn rapidly for a while but burn itself out quickly. You need to get to know someone to really love them. And to be loved in return. And it doesn’t matter if someone’s father loves you, if she doesn’t, you’re not going to have that long-lasting dependable love that keeps you close to hearth and home for a lifetime.

 

[dixieagle]

But it’s playacting and bizarre, Dixieagle.

Completely agreed; I was trying to get at the reason behind such behavior.

 

[SeekingWisdom]

I think that the notion of HAVING to ask a woman’s father before she knows herself, is rather antiquated. However, I certainly know the value of having family approval. Even though I am “over 35” , there are certain family members whose approval of my future spouse I would seek before getting married. But, because there is a slightly older than me female who is opposed to me getting married to anyone, I would not seek that person’s opinion, but a few others, definitely. I am orphan, so no parents in the picture, just other relatives, which makes it more tricky, because siblings and cousins are your equals, more or less, and their opinions are usually based on more selfish motives than parents.

 

[Kindness]

QUOTE=Liberanosamalo;6107643

As for the notion that one needs to be on an emotional rollercoaster…



Don’t confuse an upset stomach with love.

They’ve done brain imaging on people “in love” and the same regions light up for insanity too.

I’m not sure if you were referring to my post Lib but I did not intend to imply that an “emotional rollercoaster” = love. My thoughts are more along the lines that as much as shared faith, values and common goals etc. are very important in building a marriage relationship so is attraction and qualities that bring joy such as sense of humor, sense of fun and an ability to celebrate. It is possible to go overboard and overlook every other quality in favor of erotic or romantic love. In the same way a marriage of two people matched on everything but with no physical attraction or spark is missing an essential quality to a long-lasting happy marriage.

I have been with my dh for 14 years, married for 13. We have had many ups and downs like any marriage, including one of our children enduring years of chemotherapy. Through everything we are bonded in many ways and an important aspect is that we find each other attractive, appealing and fun to be around. Life has its challenges and a solid marriage and family life can include plenty of hum-drum: working, washing dishes, changing diapers. If you don’t have a partner that helps you see the joy and positive in life you are adding much more challenge. You also will be having a sexual relationship with that person for many years and hopefully it brings you both much joy and happiness. You could admire a man for his great faith and sterling qualities but do you also want to wake up next to him every morning? Long term desire is not a fantasy.

 

[LilyElain]

lol–and maybe dropping a handkerchief on the ground for a gentleman to pick up to know a woman is interested, might make a come back too. Ok…maybe not. When it comes to romance, I would have liked to have been born in the 1800’s.

Agree…and I am 27…I happen to like old fashioned things and I “dated” and “courted” and personally the courting allowed less hurt on both sides. I think it depends, as many have said, on the woman. My sister would probably kill a guy if he did that but I like that kind of treatment…

 

[BadTurkey]

Agree…and I am 27…I happen to like old fashioned things and I “dated” and “courted” and personally the courting allowed less hurt on both sides. I think it depends, as many have said, on the woman. My sister would probably kill a guy if he did that but I like that kind of treatment…

Honestly, if a girl asked me to ask her father for permission to date her, I’d run for the hills. Luckily, I haven’t come across one yet, although I did have one girl tell me that she broke that rule for me.

 

[L2P2]

I agree with the posters who say that asking the father first would be perceived as antiquated and odd by 99% of practicing Catholics.

However, there is a middle term here: Meeting the woman, perhaps going out on a date or two, and then not persisting with the relationship until both meet the respective families. How well your family views your potential spouse is a very important component in developing a good and lasting marriage.

My family has experience both with “modern” and arranged marriages, and I can’t say one is better than the other. One set of my husband’s grandparents had a marriage arranged in southern Italy in the pre-modern agrarian manner that the OP describes. Fourteen children and a number of beatings later, my husband’s grandmother died at 41. My father’s mother, in a modern, American, “shotgun” marriage, had to suffer living with a chronically unemployed alcoholic who threw a t.v. at her once and broke her arm.

My maternal grandparents, by contrast, met in the U.S. but sought approval from my great-grandmother in Northern Ireland before proceeding to get married. My mother more or less employed a similar system with me. After I met my now-husband, I introduced him to my parents after a couple dates, and my mother immediately (as in same day) required that my husband meet my grandmother.

We are not marital models in many, perhaps most, respects, nor is there anything close to perfect harmony among each of us and our extended families. But we’ve been together for twenty years, and, barring unforeseen circumstances, will be together for many more.

 

[SarahR]

I haven’t read through the other posts. My perspective as a 32 year old… I would say that for a 17 or 18 year old young person it would be a sweet gesture. But being older than that, my apologies but to me it comes across as very weird.

Seems like he wouldn’t think she has a brain or could make a decision for herself but however her father’s opinion matters primarily. Assumes a relationship between father & daughter that may not be there. Almost sounds like he may be preoccupied in the ideals of the rules and form. It may make the woman wonder what other “rules” he has in mind that she isn’t used to.

 

[spellinggirl]

It absolutely depends on the woman. If you think she would like that sort of thing, go for it. However, I would say that most women nowadays (myself included) would find this demeaning and sexist. That woman is not a child… she is an adult, and can make her own decisions. Her father my even find your request a little strange.

 

[shannyk]

Let’s also not forget how complicated that can get, asking dad permission to court his daughter. Remember not long ago a poster and about 45 pages of drama when the father refused to allow this and the daughter went along with it and the poor young man was strung along to the point of heartsickness.

There were downsides to that whole ritual too.

Yeah…and if you’re going to do this you’d better know she has a good relationship with her father too. I think most fathers would, at the age the OP is, think it quite ridiculous.

My own father would say “why the heck do I care? Go ask her!”

It’s a nice sentiment, but probably doesn’t play out well in the world we live in, unless you’re a Duggar. (and as much as I enjoy the Duggar family, that whole thing was a fiasco!).

 

[cthulhubryan]

I did not ask my wife’s father for courting her, but I did ask him for her hand in marriage. I had yet to meet him and had only heard about him from his ex-wife so I was scared. It was the right thing to do. Then again, My father-in-law is 40 years older than I am so it would depend on the age of her father as well. If he is a ex-hippie from the 60’s he might not care.

 

[DL82]

Thanks for all the posts, they’ve given me a lot to think about. I guess I’m just feeling a little bit disjointed because I’m living in a student community (graduated, worked for a bit, then came back to study for my doctorate, ought to graduate at 28, it’s hard seeing so many folks my age with a good income and still living on a research stipend). There are so many students from different countries, all living away from home and attending church here, although I’m in my home country, I’m a convert so not used to Catholic traditions in some ways. I guess I’m just finding my feet, finding an identity, and at the same time hoping to find a wife (and write my thesis somewhere along the way, so no pressure!)

Thanks again for your ideas. I’m probably just putting barriers in the way. It’s good to get a wake-up call sometimes.

 

[agp2176]

Well, I for one think it is a splendid idea! Ah, you’re a romantic one after my own heart!

That said, it is so wonderful if only from the symbolism of the gesture. My wife and I are both an older couple (I’m 52 she’s 49). We met in 2005 and have married for 2 years. But, when it came time to ask for her hand in marriage, I called her dad and asked his permission. I then asked the same of her mum. Granted, it was more a romantic gesture than anything else, but it was something that I felt I had to do. Oh – it was a phone call as opposed to in person because of distance. I wanted to vow to them that I would take good care of thir daughter, never lie to her and place her harm’s way, and, as the song The Power of Love by Frankie Goes to Hollywood says – protect her from the hooded claw, keep the vampires from her door

I dunno – I miss those old ways of quiet civility. Life is to much ‘me me me’ today, and not enough ‘may I, please’.

God bless you in your journey

Tony

 

[purplesunshine]

Well, I for one think it is a splendid idea! Ah, you’re a romantic one after my own heart!

That said, it is so wonderful if only from the symbolism of the gesture. My wife and I are both an older couple (I’m 52 she’s 49). We met in 2005 and have married for 2 years. But, when it came time to ask for her hand in marriage, I called her dad and asked his permission. I then asked the same of her mum. Granted, it was more a romantic gesture than anything else, but it was something that I felt I had to do. Oh – it was a phone call as opposed to in person because of distance. I wanted to vow to them that I would take good care of thir daughter, never lie to her and place her harm’s way, and, as the song The Power of Love by Frankie Goes to Hollywood says – protect her from the hooded claw, keep the vampires from her door

I dunno – I miss those old ways of quiet civility. Life is to much ‘me me me’ today, and not enough ‘may I, please’.

God bless you in your journey

Tony

Hand in marriage…yes…that is still cute and appropraite…to go on a date? I don’t see how that in any way could be construde as appropriate for anyone over 20

 

[psr13]

I gotta say that typically when the man asks the dad the man and woman have gotten to know each other. They would probably both know that they want to date, or maybe the girl has told him to ask her dad. Maybe in the past when the guy asked the girl had no idea. However, I believe in families where this still occurs it comes as no surprise.

 

[LilyElain]

I suppose it would be nice after a couple dates…but asking the Dad before you ever went out might be a little much…
I love romantic gestures, however if I did not want to go out with said gentleman, it could get tricky…