Asking for Prayer and Discernment in Unity...

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Please pray very carefully before attempting to answer this question.

---

In the Hebrew Scriptures there were 12 Tribes which corporately made up the nation of Israel. I’m looking for a similar idea, but with 12 overall denominational groups within Christianity.

For example, Catholicism, in my opinion would be one group. Some, however, might perceive both Catholic and Orthodox as one group. Other groups, likewise, would probably blend into each other as well-- such as perhaps High and Low Anglicanism, Wesleyanism, etc…

Although I’ve studied many different denomainations, I have to confess that I simply am not aware of all the denominations and how they might correspond to each other in 12 broader groupings.

If you do answer, please remember to pray in the Holy Spirit for discernment before you answer.

Likewise, if you simply feel that there are not 12 basic groupings, please feel free to state this as well. But do explain why you think this would not work (and be sure to pray as noted above before you answer).

if you have any further questions, just ask.

Thanks.

And Merry Christmas too.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

oops…

Could someone place this within the non-Catholic section. This was supposed to be something to prayerfully spur ecumenical dialogue.

Merry Christmas everyone.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Thank you for the move in locations

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

 

[twosweetgirls]

Hmm, at first thought I’d say that the Catholic Church isn’t merely a “christian group” or “denomination”. Rather, if I had to I’d classify beliefs as Catholic, then Protestant, then non-Christian.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Hmm, at first thought I’d say that the Catholic Church isn’t merely a “christian group” or “denomination”. Rather, if I had to I’d classify beliefs as Catholic, then Protestant, then non-Christian.

Me personally, I do believe the Catholic Church is not a denomination. That is, I believe she contains the fullness of truth as Christ himself set down to spead the gospel message. More to the point, I believe the Catholic Church is not merely a denomination. I believe she is The Church that Christ himself estalished.

For the sake of this thread, however, I am trying to work on the idea of “separated brethren”-- since we as Catholics do acknowledge authentic motions of the Holy Spirit moving among non-Catholic denominations.

The analogy I’m trying to use is that of Joseph and his brothers-- for during a time they were “separated brethren” beginning under treacherous situations but did eventually re-unite under rather strange conditions.

Me personally, I would consider the Church to be Joseph. Consequently, I’m assuming that other denominations would probably see themselves as Joseph too-- it’s a given considering the nature of this hypothetical question.

Nonetheless, working in this hypothetical formula, do you see any patterns within the spectrum of denomination (including Catholicism) which could likewise be broken down into 12 groups in a way that was simlar to how Israel was divided into 12 Tribes for example? :coffeeread:

 

[ryanoneil]

Likewise, if you simply feel that there are not 12 basic groupings, please feel free to state this as well. But do explain why you think this would not work

if you have any further questions, just ask.

I don’t know enough about denominations to group them.
What you are trying to work out? What has you thinking about this comparison?

Peace,

Ryan

 

[puzzleannie]

if you simply feel that there are not 12 basic groupings, please feel free to state this as well. But do explain why you think this would not work (/quote]
since there is no evidence of such a grouping other than to note that like the 10 lost tribes, many denominations have voluntarily separated themselves from communion and may very well be “lost”. the analogy limps and it is up to those who propose it to defend it.

 

[Volodymyr]

I think that IrishMelchite has such a list of various types - perhaps not 12. I am also not sure why you want Christian groups to be like tribes of Israel. But here is some list:

Orthodox
Old Believer
Monophysite
Nestorian
Roman Catholic
Anglican
Old Catholic
Pietist
Millenialist
Lutheran
Calvinistic
Anabaptist
Evangelic non Baptist

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I think that IrishMelchite has such a list of various types - perhaps not 12. I am also not sure why you want Christian groups to be like tribes of Israel. But here is some list:

Orthodox
Old Believer
Monophysite
Nestorian
Roman Catholic
Anglican
Old Catholic
Pietist
Millenialist
Lutheran
Calvinistic
Anabaptist
Evangelic non Baptist

Bingo!

Something like that is what I’m lookng for.

Now if it could be refined down to 12…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I don’t know enough about denominations to group them.
What you are trying to work out? What has you thinking about this comparison?

Peace,

Ryan

It’s more of an ecumenical inquiry than anything else.

As I noted above, I am trying to work on the idea of “separated brethren”-- since we as Catholics do acknowledge authentic motions of the Holy Spirit moving among non-Catholic denominations.

The inspiration came from the usage of “separated brethren” within the DECREE ON ECUMENISM UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

INTRODUCTION

1. The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided.(1) Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature.

But the Lord of Ages wisely and patiently follows out the plan of grace on our behalf, sinners that we are. In recent times more than ever before, He has been rousing divided Christians to remorse over their divisions and to a longing for unity. Everywhere large numbers have felt the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there increases from day to day the movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians. This movement toward unity is called “ecumenical.” Those belong to it who invoke the Triune God and confess Jesus as Lord and Savior, doing this not merely as individuals but also as corporate bodies. For almost everyone regards the body in which he has heard the Gospel as his Church and indeed, God’s Church. All however, though in different ways, long for the one visible Church of God, a Church truly universal and set forth into the world that the world may be converted to the Gospel and so be saved, to the glory of God.

The Sacred Council gladly notes all this. It has already declared its teaching on the Church, and now, moved by a desire for the restoration of unity among all the followers of Christ, it wishes to set before all Catholics the ways and means by which they too can respond to this grace and to this divine call.

Based on this reading, and looking for an acceptable typology within the Hebrew Scriptures, the analogy I’m trying to use is that of Joseph and his brothers-- for during a time they were “separated brethren” beginning under treacherous situations but did eventually re-unite under rather strange conditions.

As such, I am hopeful that we could work on the concept of us Catholics being “brothers in Christ” with other denominations just as Joseph was a “brother in Israel” with his other brothers-- even if we are all just as separated just as Joseph was separated form his own brothers.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Since there is no evidence of such a grouping other than to note that like the 10 lost tribes, many denominations have voluntarily separated themselves from communion and may very well be “lost”. the analogy limps and it is up to those who propose it to defend it.

I think you may be misunderstanding me puzzleannie.

I’m not suggesting that this is the way it is.

I’m suggesting this might provide a key for us to understand why it might be so.

The discussion is more of an ecumenical discussion designed to spur on valid ecumenical dialogue if possible.

Consequently, I fully acknowledge that this might not be the way it is. My own prayers regarding this did not bring on any answers– but, at the same time, I felt no warning about asking the question either. Therefore, after praying, I’ve simply asked the question to see what response would come, if any.

It could be totally off-base. But if it’s not, then it’s at least worthwhile to ask and see what comes of it, provided the Holy Spirit is truly at work with the request.

You seem to have prayed very carefully before attempting to answer this question. Was the response you gave above the answer to your prayer?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

This was another inspiration for searching this out further…

WHY DIVIDED?

God’s plans are often inscrutable. Only in the hereafter will it be truly possible to “see” and, therefore, to understand. But would it be possible to have a glimpse even now of the answer to the question that, for centuries, many believers have asked?

Why would the Holy Spirit have permitted so many different divisions and enmities among those who claim to be disciples of the same Gospel, disciples of the same Christ?

Yes, indeed, we can truly ask ourselves: Why did the Holy Spirit permit all these divisions? In general, the causes and historical development of these divisions are well known.

It is legitimate, however, to wonder if there is perhaps a metahistorical reason as well.

In searching for a metahistorical reason, I’m exploring this idea and am hopeful that we could work on the concept of us Catholics being “brothers in Christ” with other denominations just as Joseph was a “brother in Israel” with his other brothers-- even if we are all just as separated just as Joseph was separated form his own brothers.

As Pope John Paul II noted, regardless of the reason, this cannot be a justification for the divisions that continue to deepen.
Pope John Paul II:

The time must come for the love that unites us to be manifested! Many things lead us to believe that that time is now here, and as a result, the importance of ecumenism for Christianity should be evident.

Ecumenism is a response to the exhortation in the First Letter of Peter to “give an explanation [of] the reason for our hope” (cf. 1 Pt 3:15).

 

[ryanoneil]

How about adding The Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association to the list?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

How about adding The Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association to the list?

I have to confess that I have not actually heard of them before.

Are they actually Catholic?

 

[Cathy]

I think this is an interesting question, but I think the answer is that there are not 12 Christian groups. There is just one Church and one Shepherd. The one Church is apostolic, based on 12 original apostles, who are now represented by the (many more than 12) bishops.

One of the things that drew me into the Catholic Church was reflecting on my own journey into the one true Church. My journey included time in both Christian and non-Christian “churches.” Among them were: Salvation Army, Methodist, Anglican and, finally, Catholic. William Booth had been a Methodist minister until founding the Salvation Army. In founding the Salvation Army, he denied the need for a single sacrament. John Wesley had been an Anglican before founding the Methodist church. In founding the Methodist Church, the only sacraments he recognized were communion (which was not even a true sacrament, since it was only believed to be a symbol) and baptism. In founding the Anglican Church, Henry VIII denied that marriage was a sacrament. It is only Holy Mother Church who has the fullness of the Faith and all seven sacraments available to her children for their sanctification.

I like the analogy mentioned by Alex Jones: that of the Barque of Peter surrounded by the little lifeboats of the thousands of other groups which call themselves churches. I prefer to take refuge on the Barque of Peter.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

How about adding The Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association to the list?

I guess what I’m trying to do is break down distinct groupings (if possible),

For example, under the our own Catholic faith, we have 23 “particular Churches,” or Rites, all of which acknowledge a primacy of jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome and are in full communion with the Holy See and each other.

Within Catholicism, these particular Churches are the one Latin-Rite or Western Church (which uses a number of different liturgical rites, of which the Roman Rite is the best known) and 22 Eastern Catholic Churches.

Of the latter particular Churches, 14 use the Byzantine liturgical rite.

As such, all these 23 Churches would be considered One Church: The Catholic Church (and, in our faith, the Catholic Church is the One True Church as well).

 

[ryanoneil]

I have to confess that I have not actually heard of them before.

Are they actually Catholic?

No they are Schismatic. The Chinese government formed it when they made being Catholic illegal. It’s been in the news lately when they named a new Bishop without Papal approval.

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=22230

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I think this is an interesting question, but I think the answer is that there are not 12 Christian groups. There is just one Church and one Shepherd. The one Church is apostolic, based on 12 original apostles, who are now represented by the (many more than 12) bishops.

One of the things that drew me into the Catholic Church was reflecting on my own journey into the one true Church. My journey included time in both Christian and non-Christian “churches.” Among them were: Salvation Army, Methodist, Anglican and, finally, Catholic. William Booth had been a Methodist minister until founding the Salvation Army. In founding the Salvation Army, he denied the need for a single sacrament. John Wesley had been an Anglican before founding the Methodist church. In founding the Methodist Church, the only sacraments he recognized were communion (which was not even a true sacrament, since it was only believed to be a symbol) and baptism. In founding the Anglican Church, Henry VIII denied that marriage was a sacrament. It is only Holy Mother Church who has the fullness of the Faith and all seven sacraments available to her children for their sanctification.

I like the analogy mentioned by Alex Jones: that of the Barque of Peter surrounded by the little lifeboats of the thousands of other groups which call themselves churches. I prefer to take refuge on the Barque of Peter.

I agree with everything you’ve said Cathy.

In fact, many of the reasons you’ve given for conversion match my reasons as well. For me, two of the major deciding factors (along with the issues of disunity) were the errors of Sola Scriptura coupled with a firm recognition of the accuracy of the the Catholic nature of Mary herself as the Mother of God. Adter this, once I started to really investigate the Church Fathers and reading the Cathechism of the Catholic Church in addition to strong Catholic apologetic websites, the transistion was fairly rapid.

Indeed, I could not actually live with my own conscience if I were to reject what I knew to be true. But it wasn’t a sense of guilt in converting to Catholcism. It was sense of relief and finding the fullness of truth-- something which I was thankful for toward my previous denomination eventually leading me toward.

I need to stress, however, that I do not believe there are actually 12 Churches, I believe there is only One Church: The Catholic Church.

I think that many of these denominations have dealt with the Church just as treacherously as Joseph’s brothers did when they plotted to kill him and then sold him into slavery.

Likewise, I think that many of these denominations will be just as surprised a Joseph’s brothers were – when they found that their brother was alive all this time and actually keeping them alive too while in a conceiled position of power – when these “churches” realize that the Catholic Church was right all along and protecting them even though they tried to kill her.

Perhaps you are right and there are not 12 distinct groupings. However, for the sake of categorizing other denominations into a number that is more easy to weild than 4,000 or so, I am trying to break them down into 12 distinct groupings.

Volodymyr provided an intesting possible starting point.

Do you have any thoughts on this “categorization” beyond what your prayerful answer above indicated?

Again, I am asking for prayer and discernment in unity.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

No they are Schismatic. The Chinese government formed it when they made being Catholic illegal. It’s been in the news lately when they named a new Bishop without Papal approval.

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=22230

Peace,

Ryan

Ahhhh…then no-- I would not consider them a distinct grouping per se.

 

[Cathy]

Do you have any thoughts on this “categorization” beyond what your prayerful answer above indicated?

Again, I am asking for prayer and discernment in unity.

While any particular “taxonomy” would certainly be controversial, I think your point about the parallels with Joseph and his brothers is very interesting, and good food for thought.