Asking the saints to pray for us or praying to the saints?

[Damo73]

I have been asked to prove that we can pray to saints, so first i need to understand. i believe it is asking them to pray for us, just like asking another christian to pray for you am i right ?

Biblical evidence only because they will not except anything else

 

[LilyM]

Yes, you’ve got it right. It gets confusing though because the word ‘pray’ is really just an old-fashioned word for ‘ask’. I believe the Supreme Court of the US still uses the word ‘pray’ in some of their official proceedings - you know how courts love that old-timey language

So we ask the Saints and Mary to intercede with Christ and the Father, just as we can be said to ‘pray’ to our fellow Christians when we ask them to intercede for us as well.

There’s some great resources about prayer to the Saints in the Catholic Answers library - click on the link at the top of the page

 

[Church_Militant]

I have been asked to prove that we can pray to saints, so first i need to understand. i believe it is asking them to pray for us, just like asking another christian to pray for you am i right ?

Biblical evidence only because they will not except anything else

As my Irish ancestors would say, “And don’t you have the right of it?”
Indeed you do.

One of the best Bible studies that I have found on this is from John Martignoni (which is one reason that I support his Bible Christian Society along with Catholic Answers) and is called The Communion of Saints and here are his notes.
Excerpt:

Catholic Teaching
A. Catechism of the Catholic Church #946-962
1. The Communion of Saints is the Church; #946
2. All members of the one body - Christ; #947
3. All Christians are connected through the Body of Christ; #953, 2 Cor 2:5, and 2 Cor 1:5
B. Communion of Saints-Underlying Principles
1. Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ; Rom 12:4-5, 1 Cor 12:12-13
a. Through baptism; Col 2:12; Rom 6:4,Gal 3:27
2. Physical death does not separate us from the Body of Christ; Rom 8:38-39
3. There is only one Body of Christ, in Heaven and on Earth; Eph 2:15-16; Eph 4:4
4. The Church is the Body of Christ; Eph 1:22-23, Col 1:18,24
C. Just as we can pray for one another, we can suffer for one another; Col 1:24

Give it a listen and pass it on. (I hope you’re in RCIA already! )
Pax tecum,

 

[CARose]

Yup, you’ve got it right. One of the answers you can give is in Revelations where they talk of the Elders taking prayers of the saints to the Altar. These saints (whose prayers the elders are in the process of assisting with) could be the deceased Saints, or more likely, they are the living saints, the Christians, as those who are already deceased are either in Heaven (not needing prayers), are in Hell (prayers won’t help them) or in Purgatory (your Protestant friends most likely don’t believe in Purgatory, so you won’t need to deal with this option and why these prayers could be from and for them).

John Martignoni has some excellent talks on the subject. Go to www.biblechristiansociety.com and you can download for free his talk on the Communion of Saints to address this topic specifically. He gives scripture references and helps you tie it all together. If you aren’t comfortable downloading MP3’s, he’ll send you the talks on tape for $1 to cover shipping.

I highly recommend his talks. They’re easy listening and very informative.

God Bless,

CARose

 

[CARose]

Wow CM,

That’s a great synopsis of his talk!!

Well done!

CARose

 

[Church_Militant]

I’ve downloaded his talks a lot without the least problem. I have them ALL. [SIGN]LOL![/SIGN]

 

[apple72]

I have been asked to prove that we can pray to saints, so first i need to understand. i believe it is asking them to pray for us, just like asking another christian to pray for you am i right ?

Biblical evidence only because they will not except anything else

yes it is asking the saints to pray for us. in asking for their intercession in our petitions to God.a very good example also is the Hail Mary prayer and this is also a very significant prayer in saying that we don’t worship the Blessed Mother the last line of the Hail Mary “Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” Yes our Blessed Mother Mary is the co-redemptrix and our mediator to the Blessed Trinity.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

CCC 2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, (cf. Jn 19:27) for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. I am relieved that Catholics have not stopped praying to Mary. But I don’t blame people for not knowing this. It is very very common in this country for the Catholic clergy and for Catholic school teachers to teach their people and students that prayer TO Mary is inadmissable, God forgive them! I have been pulled up a few times by students when invited to speak to them about prayer and icons. “Father, we don’t pray to Mary, and we don’t pray to Saint Patrick.” I can only think, how sad! Their grandparents certainly did, and back into antiquity it was part of the Church’s tradition.

If Catholics do not pray to Mary, then that is a major difference in the life and piety of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Orthodox most definitely pray to the Mother of God and to the Saints. A quick glance in an Orthodox prayerbook will verify that at once.

 

[Magicsilence]

CCC 2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, (cf. Jn 19:27) for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. I am relieved that Catholics have not stopped praying to Mary. But I don’t blame people for not knowing this. It is very very common in this country for the Catholic clergy and for Catholic school teachers to teach their people and students that prayer TO Mary is inadmissable, God forgive them! I have been pulled up a few times by students when invited to speak to them about prayer and icons. “Father, we don’t pray to Mary, and we don’t pray to Saint Patrick.” I can only think, how sad! Their grandparents certainly did, and back into antiquity it was part of the Church’s tradition.

If Catholics do not pray to Mary, then that is a major difference in the life and piety of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Orthodox most definitely pray to the Mother of God and to the Saints. A quick glance in an Orthodox prayerbook will verify that at once.

Rest assured that prayer to the Blessed Virgin has been central to many of the lives of the saints, and that in Churches around the world, a small group of old ladies gather to say the rosary after Daily Mass every day.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[Verita]

I have been asked to prove that we can pray to saints, so first i need to understand. i believe it is asking them to pray for us, just like asking another christian to pray for you am i right ?

Biblical evidence only because they will not except anything else

I advise you to be careful with this issue. Even if you can get them to accept that asking Saints to pray for you is Biblical, they may turn around and insist that this isn’t in fact what Catholics do. My sister did this to me. After all of the Biblical and logical evidence had taken care of all of her arguments she went back to “Yes, but Catholics really are asking Saints to do things for them, not just asking Saints to pray with them.” This of course coming from someone who doesn’t really know anything about Catholicism, but I couldn’t convince her on that.

Another thing to watch for is having the “one mediator between God and men” (1 Timothy 2:5) verse thrown at you. It’s a favorite. However, what many Protestants fail to notice is the first verse of the same chapter which says “I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—” How then can we request, pray and intercede for someone and yet not be a mediator? The answer is simple. It is only because of Jesus’ sacrifice that we are able to be in a relationship with God that allows us to pray the way we do today. Jesus bridged the infinite gap between Holy God and sinful man. Through him our prayers can now reach the Father. And that is how he is the one mediator. All of our mediation is only possible through him.

 

[dch1983]

I have been asked to prove that we can pray to saints, so first i need to understand. i believe it is asking them to pray for us, just like asking another christian to pray for you am i right ?

Biblical evidence only because they will not except anything else

This is not exactly the “proof” you are probably looking for, but someone put it to me very bluntly once: If we can ask the person in the next pew to pray for us, why not ask the Christians who have done God’s will and who are with Him in heaven? Seems like a very good thing, when put that way…

 

[rr1213]

What examples do we have in Scripture of living people on earth asking the saints in heaven to pray for them or to intervene with God for them? If there are such references, please post the biblical citations.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

IAfter all of the Biblical and logical evidence had taken care of all of her arguments she went back to "Yes, but Catholics really are asking Saints to do things for them.

Is this not done in the Catholic Church any more?

In my own Church we ask the Mother of God, and the Saints and the Angels (especially our Guardian Angels) to do things for us all the time. It is such a normal part of life that nobody would think to question it.

 

[LilyM]

Is this not done in the Catholic Church any more?

In my own Church we ask the Mother of God, and the Saints and the Angels (especially our Guardian Angels) to do things for us all the time. It is such a normal part of life that nobody would think to question it.

Oh I’m sure there are plenty around here who do, Father, I know I do - along the lines of ‘St Anthony help me find this lost object’ etc.

But I think there’s a greater awareness of the connection of the Blessed Virgin and the Saints and Angels to the power of God, thanks to whom, after all, the favours granted through the saints are even possible.

 

[Verita]

Is this not done in the Catholic Church any more?

In my own Church we ask the Mother of God, and the Saints and the Angels (especially our Guardian Angels) to do things for us all the time. It is such a normal part of life that nobody would think to question it.

I hope there are not Catholics who ask Saints to do things for them by there own power. Such as, “St whoever, please heal me”. In my opinion, this would be very wrong. No doubt there probably are some Catholics who do this out of misunderstanding. They should be saying “St whoever, please pray to God that I can be healed.” Everything we ask for is done by the power of God, the Saints are only adding their petitions.

 

[KnightforChrist]

As a Catholic I’m constantly asked this question by protestants…eg. “Praying to saints”

After we go through the scriptures which have been referenced already above in this thread, I ask the same question which we always ask, “**Can you or someone else pray for yourself or another person to Jesus when in need ?” **, as this is usually the time when we get such requests…They reply yes as usual…

Although I move on to why can’t we then ask the saints in heaven to pray for us as well, and I try to get them to ponder that they can, I like to finish up with a final question/point…

Who would you rather having pray for you…A mortal being on earth who most likely is not in a state of complete grace with God or someone who is in the presence of Christ ???

(I know more prayers are better, including those from us mortals, but I’m making a point about the saints prayers for us)

And then I also ask while making the point, “And why would you even want to reject the prayers offered for you by one of these saints ??” Why reject something that can only help you more ???"

 

[scylla]

rr1213 regarding scriptural references, even though Catholic faith is based first upon Jesus then the Bible is based upon that understanding from Jesus who allows us to love even past death.

I would scroll up and read Church Militants post to get references from Scripture about the references from the Bible about having Saints pray for you.
Since Catholics don’t believe in soul sleep or the belief that people in Heaven have no idea what is going on here then this needs to be approached from a Catholic understanding of God to understand it.

Catholics believe in God that allows love to continue past the earthly death. So people in Heaven still love us and are able to rejoice in our Salvation. Since we see this in Scripture as before they pray for us as the prayer of a righteous person avails much. Since they are much more righteous than us it is only proper to have them pray for us.

Catholics are prohibited from witchcraft, divination, or seances which is commonly the accusation that people who misrepresent Catholic understanding, use to attack the communion of Saints. Since we are not using evil sources but rather relying on the power of God to allow people in Heaven to participate in the Body of Christ this is a completely false accusation.
Not only false but also dishonest, but most who disagree don’t disagree with actual Catholic belief and don’t realize that they are disagreeing with a caricature of Catholic belief.

By the way…
I especially ask people in Heaven to pray for me when I go talk to Jehovah’s Witnesses. After I pray to the Holy Spirit to work through me and allow me the humility to not get in the way.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Mickey]

Since Catholics don’t believe in soul sleep or the belief that people in Heaven have no idea what is going on here then this needs to be approached from a Catholic understanding of God to understand it.

Good point. It has always bewildered me that many protestants have this understanding of a disconnect between this world and the next. I always hear the phrase, “Why do you ask dead people to pray for you?”

Dead people! Dead people!!! How utterly offensive. The saints are alive in Christ! They are more alive than you or I.

I just don’t get it.

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I hope there are not Catholics who ask Saints to do things for them by there own power. Such as, “St whoever, please heal me”. In my opinion, this would be very wrong. No doubt there probably are some Catholics who do this out of misunderstanding. They should be saying “St whoever, please pray to God that I can be healed.” Everything we ask for is done by the power of God, the Saints are only adding their petitions.

Why would God desire that His saints have no freedom of action to affect matters here on Earth?

 

[Mommyof02green]

In my opinion, everyone gave you some good answers, especially C.M.

I just also want to point out:

Revelation 5:7-9 He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne. When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. They sang a new hymn: "Worthy are you to receive the scroll and to break open its seals, for you were slain and with your blood you purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue, people and nation. (NAB)

And

**Revelation 8:3-4 ** Another angel came and stood at the altar, 3 holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. (NAB)

Question: Who are the elders?
Answer: My interpretation of the passage is that the elders are the Saints in Heaven.

Question: Are there more then 24 Saints in heaven?
Answer: Yes, there are. 24 has a specially meaning, I personally do not know the specially meaning. (I still have to work on that). However I do know that numbers have special meaning:

Examples:

3- everything perfect. “Jesus rising on the 3rd day”
7- makes everything complete. “7 days of creation”
12- universal completeness. If you have 12 of anything you have all of it. --12 tribes of Israel.

24 is double 12… so maybe they are connected. I don’t know.
Also if they want to take the number 24 literally then you have to ask about the 144,000 is that number literal???

Question: Who are the Holy Ones?
**Answer: ** My interpretation is they are the people of God here on Earth. i.e. you and me.

Question: How did the Angels and the Elders receive the prayers of the holy ones??
Answer: The holy ones (the people on Earth) must of ask the Elders (Saints) and Angels to give their prayers to God. After all God is not going to hand them to the Elders (Saints) and Angels only for them to give them back to God. Once God receives a prayer He “keeps” it right???