Asleep in Christ - Defending our Saints

[nickybr38]

Right, guys, I asked the Apologists but sometimes I like seeing all the contrasting ideas on the forums too.

My non-denominational Christian friend asked me about the Intercession of Saints the other day and when I tried to explain the Catholic position she challenged me with this;

She believes that when we die we simply ‘go to sleep’ and we remain asleep and unaware until the Final Judgment Day. She quoted the story of Jesus and Lazarus and the little girl whom Jesus resurrected as proof of this because Jesus referred to Lazarus and the little girl as being ‘asleep’.

How on earth do I explain to her that we will be perfectly aware and alive after we die? That we CAN ask the Saints to pray for us because they are able to hear us?

Any thoughts?

 

[teeboy]

Show her the catechism where it says angels have intelligence and free will.

Tell her there is a man in Louisiana who was praying to Sacred Heart of Jesus that he’d find a wife. One day three angels appeared to him and told him he’d get married, have a daughter who’d be very sick, and he’ learn who St. Jude is.

After his daughter was born with a hole in her heart, he found out that his wife had been praying to St. Jude for a husband. Needless to say, they prayed much to St. Jude for the daughter who is now in her forties.

 

[zz912]

She should try reading other parts of her Bible more. Specifically the book of Revelation. The angels and saints are described there, and they are awake, alert to what is happening on earth, and bring the prayers of those on earth to God.

 

[someperson555]

well, the saints are “awake in christ”, but those of us who die and are not yet in heaven will not be consciouss, its impossible since we as humans are not spirits therefore we need our brains to be consciouss. the angels are purely spiritual beings therefore they dont require a brain and senses to comprehend and gather information.
ask yourself this, when you go to sleep, are you consciouss? can you make decisions while in a coma? no.
the saints are probably consciouss through christ’s body or by some miracle.

 

[nickybr38]

She should try reading other parts of her Bible more. Specifically the book of Revelation. The angels and saints are described there, and they are awake, alert to what is happening on earth, and bring the prayers of those on earth to God.

I presented Revelation 5:8 to her. She argued that this verse is only referring to angels. The ‘saints’ mentioned are ‘angels’. She’s quite insistent on this fact.

 

[teeboy]

Remaining asleep is what the Jews believed. Asleep but not afflicted by evil.

2nd Samuel Cpt7… He will build a house for me (Father).

 

[marty1818]

She believes that when we die we simply ‘go to sleep’ and we remain asleep and unaware until the Final Judgment Day. She quoted the story of Jesus and Lazarus and the little girl whom Jesus resurrected as proof of this because Jesus referred to Lazarus and the little girl as being ‘asleep’.

From the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible:

Mark 5:39 **not dead but sleeping: **Biblical writers often speak of “sleep” as a euphemism for biological death (Mt 27:52;Jn 11:11; 1Cord 15:6). Jesus uses this description to emphasize that the girl’s condition is only temporary and reversible.

The following verses may be helpful in defending the belief of a particular judgement. They are cited in The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Lk 16:22; 23:43; Mt 16:26; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Heb 9:27; 12:23

 

[pablope]

Right, guys, I asked the Apologists but sometimes I like seeing all the contrasting ideas on the forums too.

My non-denominational Christian friend asked me about the Intercession of Saints the other day and when I tried to explain the Catholic position she challenged me with this;

She believes that when we die we simply ‘go to sleep’ and we remain asleep and unaware until the Final Judgment Day. She quoted the story of Jesus and Lazarus and the little girl whom Jesus resurrected as proof of this because Jesus referred to Lazarus and the little girl as being ‘asleep’.

How on earth do I explain to her that we will be perfectly aware and alive after we die? That we CAN ask the Saints to pray for us because they are able to hear us?

Any thoughts?

Looks like a Jehovah’s Witness…who believe in “soul sleep.”

Try posting your question here: catholicxjw.com/

Briefly…it is in their misunderstanding of “sleep” when mentioned in the Bible, particularly, in the OT.

“Sleep” used in the OT meant death…but after death, there is the resurrection in Christ when in heaven.

Also, cite the passage in 1Peter, where it is written that Christ went to the spirits in prison prior to the resurrection.

carm.org/soul-sleep

jimmyakin.com/2012/01/quick-answers-to-soul-sleep.html

 

[nickybr38]

Looks like a Jehovah’s Witness…who believe in “soul sleep.”

Try posting your question here: catholicxjw.com/

Briefly…it is in their misunderstanding of “sleep” when mentioned in the Bible, particularly, in the OT.

“Sleep” used in the OT meant death…but after death, there is the resurrection in Christ when in heaven.

Also, cite the passage in 1Peter, where it is written that Christ went to the spirits in prison prior to the resurrection.

carm.org/soul-sleep

jimmyakin.com/2012/01/quick-answers-to-soul-sleep.html

She is not a Jehovah’s Witness but this is exactly what she believes! Thank you!

I will send her those articles and see if she’s open enough to read them.

Thanks!

Hopefully if I can hash this out she will be more open to hearing WHY we feel it’s okay to ask the Saints to pray for us.

 

[teeboy]

Just to add.

Death in OT was result of sin.

Jesus brought the girl back from death as in ressurection.

This is somewhat foreshadowing the Eucharist. The communion we recrive heals us of our sins. Just as Jesus healed the soul of the dead girl.

He came to heal the contrite of heart.

 

[zz912]

I presented Revelation 5:8 to her. She argued that this verse is only referring to angels. The ‘saints’ mentioned are ‘angels’. She’s quite insistent on this fact.

What a novel personal opinion she has. Perhaps you will ask her where in the Bible she is mentioned to be given authority to intrepret Scripture? Because the Church IS mentioned in the Bible, and the Church IS given authority to interpret (and canonize) Scripture. And the Church says those are saints, distinct from angels.

Rev 5:8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

Well is she also saying that the elders are NOT the 12 Apostles and 12 patriarchs? Because Jesus Himself said:

*Matthew 19:27 Then Peter said to him in reply, “We have given up everything and followed you. What will there be for us?” 28 Jesus said to them, “Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. *

She must also be ignoring other parts of Revelation:

Rev 6:9 When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. 10 They cried out in a loud voice, “How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” 11 Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.

Here we see holy martyrs who are in Heaven, who are awake, alert, know what is happening on earth (i.e. they know that their blood has not been avenged on earth). So this is BEFORE the final judgement, and before the Second Coming.

And finally, don’t forget in the parable of Lazarus, point out that both men are awake, alert, and know what is going on down on earth. The rich man asks for water, from Abraham (who should be asleep in her opinion), and asks to send a warning to his family back on earth. Don’t forget Jesus SPEAKING with Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration.

Simply, her personal opinion is unbiblical.

 

[animalis]

In Hebrews there are a number of illusterious examples purposed to the readers. And in the midst of these people we read, “but now they desire a better, that is to say, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for he hath prepared for them a city.” (Heb 11:16)

Here are more verses on being an example or seeing spiritual authority as an example:

“Take, my brethren, for an example of suffering evil, of labour and patience, the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord.” (Jas 4:10)

“Be ye followers of me, brethren, and observe them who walk so as you have our model.” (Phil 3:17)

“Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.” (1 Cor 11:1)

“be thou an example of the faithful in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, in chastity.” (1 Tim 4:12)

“Neither as lording it over the clergy, but being made a pattern of the flock from the heart.” (1 Pet 5:3)

 

[mskejj]

Right, guys, I asked the Apologists but sometimes I like seeing all the contrasting ideas on the forums too.

My non-denominational Christian friend asked me about the Intercession of Saints the other day and when I tried to explain the Catholic position she challenged me with this;

She believes that when we die we simply ‘go to sleep’ and we remain asleep and unaware until the Final Judgment Day. She quoted the story of Jesus and Lazarus and the little girl whom Jesus resurrected as proof of this because Jesus referred to Lazarus and the little girl as being ‘asleep’.

How on earth do I explain to her that we will be perfectly aware and alive after we die? That we CAN ask the Saints to pray for us because they are able to hear us?

Any thoughts?

You can refer her to Mark 12:26-27 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."

And of course there is the Transfiguration (Matt 17:1-5) in which Moses and Elijah appear to Jesus…they are not asleep or unconscious but very much alive…And the resurrection of the dead at the end of the world had certainly not happened at that time!

 

[tabycat]

And of course there is the Transfiguration (Matt 17:1-5) in which Moses and Elijah appear to Jesus…they are not asleep or unconscious but very much alive…And the resurrection of the dead at the end of the world had certainly not happened at that time!

:thumbsup:There is one thing about people who believe in soul sleep and the Transfigutation, some will come and say that Moses and Elijah were only ‘awake’ during the Transfiguation and went back to ‘sleep’ afterwords.