Assalamu alaikum

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It appears Junvir is not participating in this thread anymore. How odd.:rolleyes:

Anyway, I do have a question for you OP, if you dont mind?

Is it okay for a Muslim to celebrate Christmas? I asked on another thread and got no Muslim response. Is it offensive to ask? :confused:
 
Anyway, I do have a question for you OP, if you dont mind?
You may ask me whatever you wish. I will always try to answer as honestly as I can.
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Damascus:
Is it okay for a Muslim to celebrate Christmas? I asked on another thread and got no Muslim response. Is it offensive to ask? :confused:
As Muslims, we should not celebrate Christmas. There are several reasons for this. For one, it is a Christian holiday that celebrates not just the birth of Jesus, pbuh, but of his birth as the Son of God and God in the Flesh. Those two things are the opposite of Islamic teaching. Another important reason is because we Muslims have our own identity. If we want to partake of the holiday cheer around winter time, we have our own means to do it. Ramadan is the first way. Though it is not the same month as Christmas, this is a very holy time for Muslims. Many Muslim families like to celebrate Ramadan by decorating and other things that people sometimes do for Christmas. The last day of Ramadan, Eid ul-Fitr, is celebrated here in America usually by taking the day off from work, waking early, having a small breakfast, and going to mosque or some other group for prayer. Many American Muslims also pass out gifts at this time. There is another Eid as well, called Eid ul-Adha and this often occurs during “Christmas time,” but because Muslims follow a lunar calendar, it sometimes occurs before or after the weeks surrounding Christmas. But because it often times does fall into the “holiday season,” many American Muslims have decorated their homes with decorations (being careful not to select decorations that might symbolize unIslamic things) and exchange gifts. So, instead of borrowing or stealing someone else’s holiday, we Muslims simply use our own holidays to participate in the holiday cheer. Because Islam demands we show respect to our friends and neighbors, whether or not they are Muslim, we are not “grinches” at Christmas time. We may exchange holiday greetings, attend celebrations that are not religious, that don’t have alcohol and pork present, like a company party or a family dinner if you are a revert, with Christians and others.
 
Alaykumu Salam!

Hello and welcome to the forum! It’s always a pleasure to have another Muslim join us because there is usually so much mis-understandings between Catholics and Muslims. Lets hope you can help rectify that.

Ili Liqa

(Not sure if either of those of those phrases was written right… but that’s how I was taught to say it.)
 
You may ask me whatever you wish. I will always try to answer as honestly as I can.

As Muslims, we should not celebrate Christmas. There are several reasons for this. For one, it is a Christian holiday that celebrates not just the birth of Jesus, pbuh, but of his birth as the Son of God and God in the Flesh. Those two things are the opposite of Islamic teaching. Another important reason is because we Muslims have our own identity. If we want to partake of the holiday cheer around winter time, we have our own means to do it. Ramadan is the first way. Though it is not the same month as Christmas, this is a very holy time for Muslims. Many Muslim families like to celebrate Ramadan by decorating and other things that people sometimes do for Christmas. The last day of Ramadan, Eid ul-Fitr, is celebrated here in America usually by taking the day off from work, waking early, having a small breakfast, and going to mosque or some other group for prayer. Many American Muslims also pass out gifts at this time. There is another Eid as well, called Eid ul-Adha and this often occurs during “Christmas time,” but because Muslims follow a lunar calendar, it sometimes occurs before or after the weeks surrounding Christmas. But because it often times does fall into the “holiday season,” many American Muslims have decorated their homes with decorations (being careful not to select decorations that might symbolize unIslamic things) and exchange gifts. So, instead of borrowing or stealing someone else’s holiday, we Muslims simply use our own holidays to participate in the holiday cheer. Because Islam demands we show respect to our friends and neighbors, whether or not they are Muslim, we are not “grinches” at Christmas time. We may exchange holiday greetings, attend celebrations that are not religious, that don’t have alcohol and pork present, like a company party or a family dinner if you are a revert, with Christians and others.
👍

You are the most honest and nice Muslim poster I have ever seen here at CAF.

May you be blessed with many years, and may I hope to be so bold to say I hope we can be friends!

You are good in my book!👍
 
You may ask me whatever you wish. I will always try to answer as honestly as I can.

Abdullah, I have read your previous posts and will take you at face value. My question for you: Why is it that when the 6 Muslim holy men got removed from an airplane it seems like all the powers of Islam come to the fore in the media and in the court system to demand justice, from lawyers to p.r. guys to whatever it takes - yet, Muslims in the U.S. can never seem to find a voice denouncing terrorist acts perpetrated by Muslims up to and including murder (e.g. the nun who was shot dead in retaliation for Papal comments that the shooter did not like)?
 
Alaykumu Salam!

Hello and welcome to the forum! It’s always a pleasure to have another Muslim join us because there is usually so much mis-understandings between Catholics and Muslims. Lets hope you can help rectify that.

Ili Liqa

(Not sure if either of those of those phrases was written right… but that’s how I was taught to say it.)
Wa alaykumus salaam,

Your spelling is fine. When writing Arabic words with English letters, you can usually spell the same word several different ways. This is so mostly because English vowels are slurred.
👍

You are the most honest and nice Muslim poster I have ever seen here at CAF.

May you be blessed with many years, and may I hope to be so bold to say I hope we can be friends!

You are good in my book!👍
You are too kind. Yes, we can certainly be friends. Insha Allah, I hope we can learn much from each other.
Abdullah;1747231:
You may ask me whatever you wish. I will always try to answer as honestly as I can.

Abdullah, I have read your previous posts and will take you at face value. My question for you: Why is it that when the 6 Muslim holy men got removed from an airplane it seems like all the powers of Islam come to the fore in the media and in the court system to demand justice, from lawyers to p.r. guys to whatever it takes - yet, Muslims in the U.S. can never seem to find a voice denouncing terrorist acts perpetrated by Muslims up to and including murder (e.g. the nun who was shot dead in retaliation for Papal comments that the shooter did not like)?
Please forgive me but English is not my native language. What does “face value” mean? I haven’t heard that expression before. Thanks.

As to the rest of your question, assuming your expression has not altered the meaning; Muslims in the US do denounce acts of terror and violence. A quick internet search reveals the following websites:

religioustolerance.org/islfatwa.htm
groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm
islamfortoday.com/fundamnetalism.htm
islamdenouncesantisemitism.com/
islamdenouncesterrorism.com/
harunyahya.com/32terrorism_main_soc05.php
thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=63

The problem isn’t that Muslims aren’t condemning terror and violence, they are, it is that it is not as widely reported as one would hope. I do not know why.
 
Please forgive me but English is not my native language. What does “face value” mean? I haven’t heard that expression before. Thanks.

As to the rest of your question, assuming your expression has not altered the meaning; Muslims in the US do denounce acts of terror and violence. A quick internet search reveals the following websites:

religioustolerance.org/islfatwa.htm
groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm
islamfortoday.com/fundamnetalism.htm
islamdenouncesantisemitism.com/
islamdenouncesterrorism.com/
harunyahya.com/32terrorism_main_soc05.php
thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=63

The problem isn’t that Muslims aren’t condemning terror and violence, they are, it is that it is not as widely reported as one would hope. I do not know why.
The expression does not affect the meaning of the question. Taking you at “face value” simply means that I am going under the assumption that you are exactly what you say you are in your posts. No more, no less. I assure you that you can take me at face value.
Let me offer you my correction to your sentence that begins “The problem isn’t that Muslims…”: The problem is that no one has to get on a computer and do searches for the example I provided - 6 Holy men bumped off a plane. Muslims manage to get that issue on the front page of all newspapers as well as the lead topic on countless news and discussion programs on TV. The media is inundated with stories such as this. Muslims should be just as aggressive in getting the opinions you allude to above on internet sites onto the front pages and lead stories on the evening news. And frankly, I find it impossible to think that if Muslims held a “Million Man Muslim March” in Washington denouncing terrorism that I or anyone else would have to do internet searches to find the story. It would cover front pages of newspapers and magazines and would be the lead story on all the evening news. And it would be the right thing to do.
Good luck to you.
 
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30miller:
The expression does not affect the meaning of the question. Taking you at “face value” simply means that I am going under the assumption that you are exactly what you say you are in your posts. No more, no less. I assure you that you can take me at face value.
I think I understand now.
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30miller:
Let me offer you my correction to your sentence that begins “The problem isn’t that Muslims…”: The problem is that no one has to get on a computer and do searches for the example I provided - 6 Holy men bumped off a plane. Muslims manage to get that issue on the front page of all newspapers as well as the lead topic on countless news and discussion programs on TV. The media is inundated with stories such as this.
I don’t know why you assume we “managed” to get this story on the news. The media decides what to report. We Muslims have no power over that. We issue condemnations of terror and violence, it is not our fault the media is not as interested in that as a story of 6 Muslims being removed from a plane.
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30miller:
Muslims should be just as aggressive in getting the opinions you allude to above on internet sites onto the front pages and lead stories on the evening news
We are aggressive in condemning terror. But we can’t make the media report anything it doesn’t want to. The media will report what will be the biggest news, I think, and we can not be blamed if they don’t think our condemnation of terror and violence is as newsworthy as the violence itself. I am sorry you feel and think this way.

As a personal favor, I ask you provide proof that Muslims have the control you believe we have over the media. This is a serious claim and one that needs proof. Thank you.
 
Assalamu alaikum!!
How are you Abdullah? I was born in the Middle East you know and many of my best friends are Muslim. Great to have you here and hope you enjoy your stay!

-unworthy
 
I don’t know why you assume we “managed” to get this story on the news. The media decides what to report. We Muslims have no power over that. We issue condemnations of terror and violence, it is not our fault the media is not as interested in that as a story of 6 Muslims being removed from a plane.

We are aggressive in condemning terror. But we can’t make the media report anything it doesn’t want to. The media will report what will be the biggest news, I think, and we can not be blamed if they don’t think our condemnation of terror and violence is as newsworthy as the violence itself. I am sorry you feel and think this way.

As a personal favor, I ask you provide proof that Muslims have the control you believe we have over the media. This is a serious claim and one that needs proof. Thank you.
Abdullah,
The 6 Holy Muslims on the plane was only an example. There are countless others all the time. Some others are Muslim threats to European cartoonists that they disapprove of and claims of Korans being flushed down toilets at Gitmo by U.S. authorities (I always wondered how one gets a book that size down a toilet). One just never hears the voice of our Muslim brothers standing with us against terrorism. Your proof is all over the media every day. We never see Muslims speaking out. You’re right, this is serious business and that is why I asked the question in the first place.
So I will take your response for what you say at face value and that is that it is the medias fault.
I disagree. Were the 6 Holy Muslims simply puppets of the media then? You say that they with their own wherewithall could not get on the media - but they were on every show, everywhere in this case. w/their lawyers, etc. Did the media force them to go on?
The true serious answer is that Muslims haven’t put the effort to publicly stand with the U.S. against terrorism. Otherwise their voice would be heard and they would be seen doing that. Muslims are not as helpless as you would present them. They can do anything they put their minds to - they have proven that again and again throughout history.
 
Here is a portion of a papal document for you as well, Lumen Gentium for starters:
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention

Must I go on?:confused:
 
To Damascus,

At last I’m back to this thread… I got lost… so I have to search for “sunni muslim” because that was the word I remember…

Admit I got the wrong term “exclusivity” … but many religious denominations are at least insinuating they are the right “path” to salvation … and even our own priests and bishops are not exempted from this… each sect has to shepherd their own flock or else they loss them to other sect… right? That’s why the protestants are saying that “confession to a priest” is not acceptable to them… and the catholic always hit back with the “bible only” basis of the protestants… we insist that tradition is as important… then endless arguments will follow… so what we call this attitude? if not exsclusivity? well we can term it “holier-than-thou” attitude… i other words my religion is better than yours… etc. etc…

that’s the reason of my first post: that Jesus died for all mankind… for the jews and gentiles… (in the modern day lingo) for christians and non-christians. for the muslims, for the budhist, for every man…( I am a catholic…but a struglling catholic because I want to be enlightened … not blindly follow the doctrine… that in my God given intellect is somewhat against logic and against the bible. (of course, I know what advice my priest will tell me… “that my faith is shollow” because I am asking too many questions.

if we will trace back history, it is only in recent generations that the Roman Catholic Church allowed reading of the bible by lay people… because the protestants have made the bible public … meaning every is given the opportunity to read the bible. The Roman Catholic feared that when ordinary people read the bible they might interpret it not according to the officiial intepretation of the Vatican… well I believe that God in His omnipotent has given averyone the intellect to decide for himself … and that’s include the reading of the biible.

That’s why even if I question many of the practices of my religion, the Roman Catholic Church, I still remain a Catholic hoping for more enligthenment… and I see this forum an opportunity to be enlightened by poeple who has matured in faith.

And what are these practices that I need to be enligthened?
  1. about purgatory… I searched the bible but could not found any reference to purgatory… and other verses are more clear in saying that … when a man dies, his body returns to dust and his spirit returns to God… so where is purgatory?
  2. I am still not enligthened about the rosary though i have been following the prayers with others… but back in my mind I"m at a lost. Why should we repeat the prayer 50 times, when we can say it once with full heart? please enligthen me.
  3. About the graven images of saints, of angels of Jesus…I know the reason of this, my priest has told me… but if you are in my country (Philippines is 90% catholic) or in south america, you will be aghast of how the faithful kiss the feet of the graven images during the lenten season… and kneeling before these graven images… in your God given intellect can you accept this?
well i hope you will not accuse me of not answering this thread… but please gave me enlightenment… not argument.
 
This was started as a “meet and greet” thread but has drifted into other topics which should be posted in Apologetics or elsewhere. Thread is now closed.
 
To Damascus,
Agast? Hardly. I kiss Icons. Doubt I would be agast. I would likely join in.

That too is another thread, and our Sunni Muslim friend here has been tolerant enough with all this talk, and I feel bad that he has to see such a horrible example of witness here.

PM me with notice when you get these threads started and I will be there.

OP, I apologize for all this nonesense. But, I needed to stop it somehow.
 
As a personal favor, I ask you provide proof that Muslims have the control you believe we have over the media. This is a serious claim and one that needs proof. Thank you.
Abdullah,
Me too. I am curious to see what citations will be used. Is it possible we have another poster who makes all kinds of accusations with no citations only personal opinion?

As you can see, I dont put up with that. Abdullah has every right to demand citations.
 
Abdullah,
Me too. I am curious to see what citations will be used.
Damascus, please do me a personal favor. As it is in any serious inquiry - scientific or otherwise, it is much easier to disprove a statement than to positively prove it. E.g. no sense trying to “prove” the “theory of gravity” if a ball goes upward when I “drop” it. (Kind of like when Galileo couldn’t exactly prove Copernicus’s theory that the earth revolved around the sun and not the other way around. But Galileo believed and, as that one played out much later, it was eventually proven. If Galileo and Copernicus had been prevented from sharing their “personal opinions” as to their theory, chances are that the sun might still be revolving around the earth. Hope that is not Damascus’s point).
So please tell me anywhere in the mainstream media (i.e. major newspapers, network TV, cable TV, major rallies called for this purpose, etc.) that you have ever seen “mainstream” Muslims, as a signifficant group, denounce terrorism. Surely, they had to sometime if Abdullah is on point. Abdullah’s links have not reached one-tenth of one -tenth of one percent of the population (U.S. or otherwise). No one I have ever spoken with on this topic would give this group anything other than an “F” for whatever effort they claim to have made in this regard. Just as you shoot an arrow to hit a target, first you identify your target. Who is their target audience for their anti-terrorist message if Abdullah’s links are where they are aimed? Certainly not the millions of us, myself prominently included, who would like to hear that message from our “allies” (?) in this war on terror. Not in the least.
And Damascus himself gives Abdullah and his people little credit if he agrees with Abdullah’s claim that however hard they try, they can’t get their message out there. I don’t buy it. They can, if they want. No one I know buys it either. Muslims are very accomplished people and to be respected in many ways. But not if we simply enable explanations such as Abdullah has offered thusfar.
Abdullah’s proclamations must work both ways - i.e. “this is a serious claim and one that needs proof”. I ask him to prove that Muslims as a significant group (a majority at least, I would hope) have made the effort to get this message out and have been rebuffed by the media.

Is it possible we have another poster who makes all kinds of accusations with no citations only personal opinion?

Is it possible to get more than one post in before being falsely accused? Forgive me - I thought “forum.CATHOLIC.com” more than likely stood for a site that would give someone a chance to offer their side before being slandered by intruding better-than-thou bloggers.
But I do apologize for any “only personal opinion” I may have included. I did not realize that this website did not accept personal opinion. Damascus may want to check out one or two of the other threads here. I think I remember seeing a personal opinion or two out there somewhere.

As you can see, I dont put up with that.

As you can also see, neither do I. (Now, what exactly has been proved by that?)

Abdullah has every right to demand citations.

And I have “every right to demand” Abdullah’s citations as well.
 
Opinions are fine on certian threads of course! But when you are implying that the media is fair and honest about all we get and we would get news if it were happening, I dont think so. If you can say that if the media does not report it its not happening, I dont think so. I guess you have more faith in the media than I do.

I dont know if you are right or wrong, but Abdulla is wondering where you get this idea from.

So am I.

But, you brought up this claim, not to get to know about Abdulla’s religious beliefs but you made some accusations he cant possibly defend himself against. It just does not seem fair.

It gets me just as upset when some posters here blame catholics for every bad thing that ever happened in the world.

I understand that bad horrible things have happened. I just dont see how you can say that the media is trustworthy in giving us all the news about everything.

I hope you see my point?
 
welcome to the forum abdullah.i would like to know when muslims speak about christianity,what first come to their mind;is it catholic,baptist etc? it is unfortunate that many christian groups e.g. in general,baptist,pentecostal etc do not consider catholica as christians.do you consider us(catholics) christians??thanks,lg
 
Opinions are fine on certian threads of course!
Glad to hear that. How can I tell which ones allow opinions?

But when you are implying that the media is fair and honest

Please,please,please - Would posters simply read and respond to my words and not their own paranoias? Not only did I never say or imply that but it would have shown much more courtesy and fairness on Damascus’s part to simply have asked me if I was implying that instead of blogging it in a declarative statement. Then I would have simply responded “NO” - because, in fact, I think the media is just the opposite and I would never have transmitted Damascus’s implication either in my message or in my metamessage. (personal opinion! Hope this is one of those “certain threads”).

If you can say that if the media does not report it its not happening, I dont think so.

I agree. See how easy it works with a dialogue.

I guess you have more faith in the media than I do.

No. (See above).

I dont know if you are right or wrong,

You haven’t even touched in the least on MY point - so I am sure you don’t know if I am “right or wrong”. Let me try again (and if you don’t understand, please ask about it instead of putting words in my mouth, thank you): Can’t Muslims as a group in this country communicate/demonstrate publicly a stand that they are with the U.S. in denouncing terrorism? Simple example of a response : Call for a “Million Muslim March against Terrorism” in the nation’s capital. Such as this has obviously been done before with other issues and was certainly carried by all the mainstream media. I’ve never heard the unified Muslims’ voice in this regard and I have never heard of any attempt of theirs to do that that was stifled by the media. Have you? If not, let’s ask them to make that effort. OK? We can then support them in that effort.

but Abdulla is wondering where you get this idea from. So am I.

Please. You don’t have to “interpret” Abdullah’s thoughts for him. Quite frankly, I think he is a far better communicator of his point of view than you are of either Abdullah’s or your own viewpoints (my opinion, of course). Neverless, I am trying to address your own “wonderings” here.

But, you brought up this claim, not to get to know about Abdulla’s religious beliefs but you made some accusations he cant possibly defend himself against. It just does not seem fair.

I don’t like to put words in others’ mouths like some bloggers here - but here is an example of a simple response Abdullah might have made (and it has nothing to do with “possibly defending himself” as I was looking for his inside opinion of his religious group only and was not charging him personally with anything): “I get your point, 30miller - you don’t hear it on ABC,NBC,CBS,CNN,FOX, or in theNY Times,Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, etc. - but they simply refuse to hear our voice. We are powerless to get them to carry it.”
If Abdullah had responded with that, I would personally have become an advocate by his side to make sure that their message was heard.

It gets me just as upset when some posters here blame catholics for every bad thing that ever happened in the world.

I totally agree. But this thought only follows your own personal thoughts - nothing I said. I have never and would never blame Muslims (as I take Damascus’s INFERENCE) for every bad thing …etc. In fact, I first and always blame our own sinfulness and turning away from God as the thing to “blame” for the state of the world today.

I understand that bad horrible things have happened. I just dont see how you can say that the media is trustworthy in giving us all the news about everything.

I don’t see how I can say it either - because I didn’t. And wouldn’t.

I hope you see my point?

Ditto.
 
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