Assertive secular apologetics--too harsh?

[st_felicity]

I participate on another forum (which is not a religious forum at all) where the debate is about abortion. I had adopted a “harsh Truth” sort of tone and a condescending sort of tone purposely to get these people who are used to listening to the pro-death mantras and sleepily repeating them as if there is no other reality than “her body, her choice” to hear something. Granted–I may have stretched the boundaries of “polite”, but I have not engaged in name-calling–I have been “harsh” and unrelenting–and it was a conscious decision–not out of anger. I was aiming at the “good-cop (charitable Christian voices)-bad cop (my harsh, slightly condescending, logic)” sort of method.

I must note that from the pro-choice side there is frequent name-calling and rude behavior–I would say about 80% of the pro-choice posts are overtly rude and hostile. I would also guess that the pro-choice voices are primarily younger adults–18-35 year olds.

Recently, a fellow pro-lifer privately addressed my harshness to me and said we should always aim to extend Christian charity. My explanation included that I was trying to shake them up a bit in a way that I believed wouldn’t allow this secular group to dismiss the “religious nuts” out of hand and to meet them more where they are at–listening to the demagogues. Besides–isn’t correction sometimes considered the “charitable” thing to do?

Well, needless to say, the concern my fellow pro-lifer has presented make me question my purposeful decision to be overtly assertive (but not overtly rude).

What are the opinions of my purposeful attempt that is in fact pretty harsh on a secular forum? Is this wrong or counter-productive?

 

[thessalonian]

It’s a difficult question and one that requires personal discernment I think. We should strive toward gentelness but sometimes we need to be blunt. I have been blasted for being arrogant because I boldly state that Catholicism is the fullness of the truth. I’ve been kicked off boards before for being assertive in this regard as you speak. I see no reason to back down.

Counterproductive? The Lord knows. I’ve had a few good rousing debates that at time got “assertive”. I found one of the chaps online a few years later and he was going through RCIA. He thanked me for sticking to my guns. I had a several week long discussion with an anti-catholic about 6 months ago. I was what you would call assertive. Eventually the negotiations broke down. Recently he emailed me telling me he was looking for more, was reading Keatings Catholicism and Fundamentalism, and asked if he could ask me questions.

Finally Jesus was not always what we would call gentler. Pearls before swine and brood of vipers are a couple of phrases that come to mind. Those were in fact loving phrases believe it or not.

Bottom line, dicernment is key. Prayer is not optional in this regard. We must always be acting and speaking in love. (not pride). Sometimes that love is toughlove.

My 2 cents.

Thess

 

[Sgt_Sweaters]

What’s the old saying? “The truth hurts.” Some things are deemed overly harsh, when in fact they are completely necessary. For instance, I have several acquaintances and friends that object to the use of graphic visual aids when discussing abortion (e.g., those used by The Center for Bio-Ethical Reform). However, such means are necessary when the pro-aborts have hijacked the debate with soft euphemisms and just a general obfuscation of truth.

Like with the photos, some words are unjustly deemed harsh.

Some people, like you said, will lazily throw out the same tired lines to support their position, and you have to wake them up. Call evil what it is.

But do it with the love of Christ, first and foremost in your mind. We are not pro-life because we oppose the pro-aborts, but rather because we support a risen King. Fr Pavone has pointed out that we are able to be pro-life because death has been conquered.

Okay to be harsh? I think so. But do it right.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Hello friend with that particular group:nope: You gotta do what you gotta do

 

[KathleenElsie]

As long as you are not attacking the person but the action my opinion is:

GO FOR IT WITH PRAYER AND LOVE FOR THE SINNER NEVER THE SIN

Those that promote abortion need a wake up call.
There are many young girls and women that had abortions that need understanding and love. Many of them believed wrongly that they were doing no wrong and now know the truth. These are the ones that I pray for daily. These are the ones we need to reach out to and love.

 

[st_felicity]

Lisa4Catholics:

Hello friend with that particular group:nope: You gotta do what you gotta do

Well…I may have gone a tad over the line a coupla times, but I afterward I did explain to the particular individual that though I may have sounded mean–my intention is not to berate her, but rather help her avoid some of the pitfalls that society is too ready to escort people to, but turn its back when people need the helping hand.

Where I may have failed in the charity department was suggesting that people get paid for what the person I was conversing with does for free I said I can see what motivates those women–but not what she gets out of the deal with her boyfriend who really has no connection to her except what they delude themselves into believing. In so many words–I didn’t name call, but…I think she’s pretty young and my explainations of the value of chastity and the deconstruction of women by the contraceptive mentality was just flying over her head. So I was BLUNT.

 

[Mickey]

On such a serious matter such as this, I don’t feel you were out of line. You are defending the lives of the innocent unborn.

 

[edward_george]

I read once (I think it was Peter Kreeft–and if I’m not mistaken, he was quoting someone else) that the Catholic Church has a conservative mind and a liberal heart. I believe that this reflects the fact that while the Church has a rational, moralistic approach to things, it is willing to be charitable and not condemn those who violate that which it advocates as morality. After all, we should hate the sin and love the sinner.

Just my thoughts.

May Mary, the Mother of God, intercede on the behalf of the unborn.

-ACEGC

 

[rayne89]

Felicity maybe you should site some examples of what you wrote so people can give you their thoughts on it.

 

[st_felicity]

rayne89:

Felicity maybe you should site some examples of what you wrote so people can give you their thoughts on it.

I thought I did a couple of posts above–you want another example? After being accused of being illiterate imbiciles–I took apart a persons post citing 18 grammatical errors, and well…okay…here’s a cut and paste of the particular post that was referenced by the fellow pro-lifer that brought the concern to my attention. In a few prior posts I had pointed out that the person I was conversing with was “playing at being adult” living at home on the parent’s dime and having sex with her boyfriend which is irresponsible and not what adults ought to do. She continually says she will do what she wants and that is that using birth control is responsible.

On thread “A”
GK: He is my man and I am happy to please him.

Felicity responds:
Sorry, darlin’, there is NOTHING that says he’s your “man”. He may be your friend and sex partner, but there is no commitment except what you delude yourself into believing exists. If he chose to dump you, there is NOTHING that could stop him and there is nothing he risks–He is NOT yours and likewise you are not his. You are two people playing at being adults. Grow up and be respectful of yourself and others–accept responsibility for your actions and live up to consequences. Otherwise, you are just a bratty child living at home on Mom and Dad’s dime who doesn’t like the fact that an actual adult is telling you that you are a selfish, self-absorbed, illogical, adolescent-thinking, sexually active irresponsible train-wreck waiting to happen. The facts is the facts–however sad they be.

GK: So suddenly you are in my brain and know what decisions I have mad and have not made? Who died and made you God? You know nothing about me or my life and so you can not make assumptions. You are an *** for doing so.

Felicity responds:
So I’m a troll, an idiot, and an ***. Wow…you’re just wiping the floor with me–I feel so insignificant–your logical and reasoned point of view just boggles my dim-witted intellect–(again, sorry if the subtle art of sarcasm escapes your pubescent mind).

Another thread “B”
Felicity responds:
I’m sorry to be so blunt here…but the “choice” was made when the woman spread her legs and did the man. She CHOSE to roll the dice and count on her “protection”–(that is also part of why I’m against BC–FALSE sense of security). Unless it’s rape–a choice was made: risk pregnancy by engaging in that which brings about a baby.

 

[st_felicity]

On 5/23/2005 11:51:58 AM, genesiskenshin wrote:

Genesis…I am trying to be patient with you because I wiped the floor with you only a thread ago, but you silly assertions and attempts to belittle me belie your youth, inexperience, and immaturity. Here…I’ll try to explain it one more time:

GK:
(ME)Au contraire, it does. You saying humans shoud abstain from pleasurable sex because it can create babies. Pleasurable sex in dophins can create baby dolphins. Please take science class from elementary school.

Felicity responds:
Of COURSE sex is for pleasure as well as procreation. I have never said two adults in a committed (i.e. married) relationship should not have sex. I suggested that if they wish to avoid having children–they need to avoid having sex the ONE WEEK the woman is in the fertile part of her monthly cycle. It is VERY easy to determine that ONE WEEK for most women who aren’t abusing their bodies with chemical contraception. There are VERY CLEAR signs of fertility if you know what to look for. As I said–humans can determine when they are fertile and use their reasoning abilities to decide if having sex and possibly becoming pregnant is a risk they want to take. I assume dolphins aren’t as worried about providing for their young as we humans are–else they would have elaborate bureaucracies to deal with orphaned baby dolphins, or abandoned baby dolphins just as we do. See–that’s what I meant by silly–you have no parallel here–it is simply another deflection from the real issue–personal responsibility.

GK:
(Me)Machines are not the proper way to test this. MAchines are not human and can not act human. And if you want to have sex with a person that is HIV positive that is prerrogative. That is why you use two methods. You are nothing more than an ignorant kid. That much is obvious from your arguments since they are not thought out fully.

Felicity responds:
Again–your poor critical reading skills are showing. The only way one can claim the effectiveness of condoms that you originally claimed is through testing them in a controlled environment using machines. Unwittingly you verified my point in your response–I agree. And the results from ACTUAL use is 14 + pregnancies in every 100.

About using two methods to prevent the contraction of HIV–what two methods? Condoms and what? If a person can get pregnant 14% of the time, isn’t that user error also true for “protecting” against HIV?–14% of the time some virus may be introduced during the sex act?

Ignorant kid? That is too funny–methinks she doth protest too much.

(ME)If I want to kill the blob in me, I will. You won’t ever stop me or anyone else for that matter. But by no means are you to dictate to people your morals about sex as your morals are not everyones. THat is also where you show the fact that you are a kid. Stop listening to your mother, who obviously has no brain of her own either.
(ME)No, I am simply saying that you ought to do research since ignorant on the subject. This is true, your postings show that. I don’t need to be civil to a kid who refuses to do her own research at unbiased sites.

Felicity responds:
There’s that hostility and paranoia again–honestly–do you think you’re saying something new? And the attempt to portray me as a child is truly pitiful–if anyone has followed our discussions, I think they can see who it is that presents reasoned arguments with less emotional hammering(whether they agree is a different story…)

(Me)I don’t need to be nice, and I don’t care what you think. I will be mean if I feel like it. I will talk down to you, because obviously you know nothing of what you speak.(ME)I am far from paranoid, but the hell if I am going to let some government run my sex life, or a church for that matter. Learn how think on your own. Go to the CDC website. They are the most unbiased website out there. They are strictly there from a scientific standpoint. No religion, no government, they don’t say things according to their own personal morals. Only scientific. You planned parenthood sites are the furthest thing from being unbiased. Yes, I have visited those sites and visted clinics too when I was freshman in college.

Felicity responds:
My point proved. (head shaking in bewilderment)

AND THE KICKER…

Felicity responds:
Planned Parenthood is biased–but not in favor of MY position…"

(Me)THen why do they advocate adoption and keeping the baby? I have yet to see a planned parenthood site that advocates abortion."

FELICITY RESPONDS:
Are you truly this clueless? Planned Parenthood DOES have a misleading name…This explains why you think I’m using Pro-life biased sources–you don’t know what Planned Parenthood is…do a Google search to get their site and come back and chat when you’re better informed. Truly–Genesis–this really proves who knows what she is talking about and WHO DOESN’T. Look it up.

 

[st_felicity]

Those are (I think) the worst of it–as I said–i have adopted the condescending–get a life–respect life–be responsible know it all attitude. This is a secular forum filled with youngish minds and I chose the attitude specifically because i could have used a dose of reality and Truth–spoken clearly to me --when i was such a wrong thinker.

Okay…is THAT too much of an attitude for THAT particular venue? I’m not trying to convert anyone to Catholicism, I’m trying to get people to see what abortion is and be responsible. My religion has only been referenced once I think in response to being charged with being a “Christo-Nazi” .
So?

 

[jennstall]

Hmmm. I think there’s a lot of name-calling there, Felicity, and generally that is going to only make people feel defensive. I honestly believe you’ve done more harm than good to your own arguments and it doesn’t seem very charitible and Christian to me. I think if you dialed it back you might have more useful discussions and more interesting results. You cannot open anyone’s heart by beating them over the head and suggesting that they are simply not as intelligent as yourself if they don’t get it.

Jen

st_felicity:

Those are (I think) the worst of it–as I said–i have adopted the condescending–get a life–respect life–be responsible know it all attitude. This is a secular forum filled with youngish minds and I chose the attitude specifically because i could have used a dose of reality and Truth–spoken clearly to me --when i was such a wrong thinker.

Okay…is THAT too much of an attitude for THAT particular venue? I’m not trying to convert anyone to Catholicism, I’m trying to get people to see what abortion is and be responsible. My religion has only been referenced once I think in response to being charged with being a “Christo-Nazi” .
So?

 

[st_felicity]

jennstall:

You cannot open anyone’s heart by beating them over the head and suggesting that they are simply not as intelligent as yourself if they don’t get it.

Jen

I hope it’s clear that where the conversations says “(Me)” that is actually the OTHER person speaking–SHE is calling ME a “kid”, “brainless”, “ignorant”, let alone a "troll, an “idiot” and an “a**” I asked her to be civil–and she comes back with “I don’t have to be nice” and “I will be mean if I feel like it” --those are HER words–if anyone is confused because I forgot to label her part of the conversation “GK” in a couple of places. All my responses start with “Felicity responds:”

Granted I did say that her critical reading skills were lacking and that she has a “pubescent mind” but whoa–please don’t mistake what she said to me for something I said to her.

 

[dirtydog]

jennstall:

generally that is going to only make people feel defensive. I honestly believe you’ve done more harm than good to your own arguments and it doesn’t seem very charitible and Christian to me.

I disagree - else Christ would have calmly and meekly urged the tax collectors to leave the temple forthwith. Sometimes, a kick in the arse is required. Kudos for being the arse kicker! The only people on the defense over your remarks are those who have a secular or perhaps satanic agenda against you. Keep up the good work. For all those who are coming against you, remember that you are also influencing those who come to these sites with an open mind and an accepting heart. Preaching the truth may not work on your adversaries, but it may be working miracles on those following the battle.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

jennstall:

Hmmm. I think there’s a lot of name-calling there, Felicity, and generally that is going to only make people feel defensive. I honestly believe you’ve done more harm than good to your own arguments and it doesn’t seem very charitible and Christian to me. I think if you dialed it back you might have more useful discussions and more interesting results. You cannot open anyone’s heart by beating them over the head and suggesting that they are simply not as intelligent as yourself if they don’t get it.

Jen

Jen I am familiar with that board if you would like to give it a try go right ahead

 

[st_felicity]

dirtydog:

The only people on the defense over your remarks are those who have a secular or perhaps satanic agenda against you. Keep up the good work.

Well…thank you for the encouragement, but I wouldn’t go so far to say “satanic agenda.” I think the particular girl in the above posts is just VERY immature and ignorant of the repercussions. Yes, I agree that the pro-choice agenda is part of Satan’s plan, but I also believe that the person who addressed her concerns to me about the nature of my method of argumentation was trying to be a good Christian in correcting me.

For all those who are coming against you, remember that you are also influencing those who come to these sites with an open mind and an accepting heart. Preaching the truth may not work on your adversaries, but it may be working miracles on those following the battle.

That is also something I am aware of–and I regret those times when I did let my frustration get the better of me specifically because of that. However, since I’ve adopted this dispassionate attitude about that forum–I really didn’t think I’d said anything out of line.

 

[slinky1882]

st_felicity:

Well…thank you for the encouragement, but I wouldn’t go so far to say “satanic agenda.” I think the particular girl in the above posts is just VERY immature and ignorant of the repercussions. Yes, I agree that the pro-choice agenda is part of Satan’s plan, but I also believe that the person who addressed her concerns to me about the nature of my method of argumentation was trying to be a good Christian in correcting me.

That is also something I am aware of–and I regret those times when I did let my frustration get the better of me specifically because of that. However, since I’ve adopted this dispassionate attitude about that forum–I really didn’t think I’d said anything out of line.

You are in my prayers and I want to thank you for trying. All I have to say is to be careful as much time spent can be thrown out the window of one loses their cool. Out of curiosity, where is this board??? May God grant you the Grace to Love through Mercy and Justice and keep up the good work. Thanks and God Bless.

 

[st_felicity]

slinky1882:

You are in my prayers and I want to thank you for trying. All I have to say is to be careful as much time spent can be thrown out the window of one loses their cool. Out of curiosity, where is this board??? May God grant you the Grace to Love through Mercy and Justice and keep up the good work. Thanks and God Bless.

Gimme theose prayers! and thank-you!

About where the forum is–trust me…you don’t wanna know…it can suck up a lot of time and break your heart–but I’ll PM the link to you for when you’re feeling a bit masochistic.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

st_felicity:

Those are (I think) the worst of it–as I said–i have adopted the condescending–get a life–respect life–be responsible know it all attitude. This is a secular forum filled with youngish minds and I chose the attitude specifically because i could have used a dose of reality and Truth–spoken clearly to me --when i was such a wrong thinker.

I understand what you’re saying, but I personally would take a different approach, because I think young people these days actually have heard straight truth. I also think that they are good at detecting condescention and may tune out.

Just a wild guess since I didn’t see the forums. It’s hard to know what to advise instead. I have some ideas but no sure fire formulae.

Okay…is THAT too much of an attitude for THAT particular venue? I’m not trying to convert anyone to Catholicism, I’m trying to get people to see what abortion is and be responsible. My religion has only been referenced once I think in response to being charged with being a “Christo-Nazi” .
So?

They must see you as someone who would limit their freedoms for reasons beyond their comprehension.

One trick, and it is a trick, is to get them to believe that you are actually interested in THEIR concerns. I might even spend a bit of time “character building,” laying low and gaining confidence. You don’t have to lie, just be noncommittal like, “that’s an interesting way to look at it; I’ve never thought of it that way” when you really mean “you are nuts.”

Once they have supplied enough statements that they start to contradict themselves, then you sweetly ask them how this and that can be true at the same time. Let them think it through themselves and find stumbling blocks. That will plant the seeds of doubt, and they may take them back to their leaders to get briefed on what to say. If they come back with standard mantra then you may as well not even argue with them because they aren’t thinking for themselves.

After all, I don’t think we’re called to get into people’s faces, because I don’t think that’s a good way to call them to the Lord. I’m kind of that way, though. Any time a person is using emotions or manipulative tricks to try to convince me of something I automatically raise my shields. I refuse to even shop at a car dealer who runs ads where they yell into the microphone. Call me old fashioned, but I like a tiny bit of dignity even though many think I’m pretty crude.

As much as I’d like to take credit, the idea of being sneaky wasn’t original. Here’s where I got the idea:
1 Thess 5:2:

For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief at night.

Alan