Assistance with friend

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psychologist101

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a friend of mine in the graduate program where i am now attending has been married 2 years, is 28, and is about to have a vasectomy. we share an office together, and i overheard him making the appointment for tuesday of next week.

i know that this is terribly wrong and evil in itself. he is agnostic, and doesnt seem to care about religion at all. however, i feel that as catholics we should prevent -fully inform- (or at least try) as much as possible the errored decisions of people in general.

they have no children, and from what he tells me he doesnt like them at all. i am staring at his wedding pictures right now on his picture board, and its obvious he and his wife were married in a catholic church.

there are 5 couples in the graduate program here that are willingly choosing to be childless their entire life. my officemate has reccomended the same urologist to 4 other guys or husbands of girls in the program, and it looks like they are all wanting to be fixed.

i quietly asked him about why he was going to make such a permenant decision, and he told me that he wants to make positively sure that he cant ever have kids, with anyone.

i asked how his wife feels, and he said she had been nagging at him to make the appointment sooner than tuesday.

i asked him if he realized that most, if not all, christian deniminations considered sterilization a very grave sin, and he said he knew what they thought. he said that his sterilization in no way harms of affects the world or any other person other than himself, so it really cant, if at all, be bad.

he asked me:“just how does me getting a vasectomy affect you, society, or any other person negatively?” “forget about God’s rules, just for a minute. how is the cutting of my vas deferens going to harm the planet?”

i didnt know what to reply, because i couldnt think of a single reason. if he doesnt care about God, then what reason is there morally to stop him from doing it?

so how do i at least try and give it a shot to change his mind?? he is very, very educated and very sharp. the discussion we had about it left me feeling like he knew alot more then me, and that i didnt have any ground to stand on.

ive also noticed that among the graduate and higher education students who are married, that most of them do not want children, period. my officemate thinks children are a burden, and he has no intention of “losing 22 years of his life” when he could be doing whatever he wants.

does anyone have any suggestions at all? why are all these people like this, and why do they reject such beautiful gifts?

only 6 days left before he makes a terrible, terrible decision…
 
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psychologist101:
however, i feel that as catholics we should prevent -fully inform- (or at least try) as much as possible the errored decisions of people in general.
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I am deeply disturbed by this statement.

Pray for your friend.

Live your life so as to be an example to him. Which Saint said “preach the gospel at all time, use words if neccessary”?

But please do not judge him.
 
i didnt mean hold him down and prevent him from going. i mistyped or used the wrong words. sorry…

i guess i mean i didnt want him to make an uninformed decision “spiritually”. at least i told him that it is a mortal and grave sin, and there are other options. i tried to explain why it is a grave matter as well.

ive seen posts where the situation was about a woman ready to have an abortion. arent matters like this equally evil? i know abortion is murder, but what about living a life voluntarily sterilized, causing a non-sacremental marriage not open to children, for decades?

im just looking for ways to maybe change his mind for a little while so i can give him materials or links to understand why sterilization is so evil.
 
What if his child was the one who would have come up with the cure for cancer?
 
:confused: If your friend changes his mind later on, can’t they reverse the procedure?
 
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MichaelTDoyle:
What if his child was the one who would have come up with the cure for cancer?
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That would be impossible. Because that child, if he is going to go through with this, never exited nor will he/she ever exist. There would be no ‘chance’ that he/she would be the one to cure cancer because there is no ‘chance’ that he/she will exist. It’s like saying a child that is aborted was possibly meant for presidency. There is no way that that child would ever had had that chance because it was aborted. The abortion is what was meant to be. Beyond that is just speculation just as it is to speculate the impossible things a non-existent child ‘might’ do if the male did not go through with the visectomy. It’s like saying that every egg I do not furtilize (because I am not married) might have been a future president… You could also say that that non-existent child could have been the next Hitler… Just my :twocents:
 
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Singinbeauty:
That would be impossible. Because that child, if he is going to go through with this, never exited nor will he/she ever exist. There would be no ‘chance’ that he/she would be the one to cure cancer because there is no ‘chance’ that he/she will exist. It’s like saying a child that is aborted was possibly meant for presidency. There is no way that that child would ever had had that chance because it was aborted. The abortion is what was meant to be. Beyond that is just speculation just as it is to speculate the impossible things a non-existent child ‘might’ do if the male did not go through with the visectomy. It’s like saying that every egg I do not furtilize (because I am not married) might have been a future president… You could also say that that non-existent child could have been the next Hitler… Just my :twocents:
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Uh, big difference between discussing the future of an existing child who is aborted, and the result of a vasectomy which eradicates the possibility of a child in the first place. Yes, you can say that a child who is aborted might have grown up to discover a cure for cancer…because they might have. That’s part of the tragedy of abortion: taking away a real, existing chance for a fulfilled life. Abortion is in no way “meant to be.” The fact that God allows it to happen as a result of free human choice, however sinful, does not mean it is His perfect will.

You are more correct in the case of vasectomy. Although vasectomy is also wrong and tragic, it is a bit more dicey to talk about the life of a potential child, since no child in fact exists.
 
All I was saying is that these things were already set in course and happen inevitably. The baby that was aborted, or the child that was never conceived, never had the chance to have a path laid out for them to make choices on so there is no way they could have cured cancer because that choice, from the beginning of time, was never going to be presented to them…
 
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Singinbeauty:
All I was saying is that these things were already set in course and happen inevitably. The baby that was aborted, or the child that was never conceived, never had the chance to have a path laid out for them to make choices on so there is no way they could have cured cancer because that choice, from the beginning of time, was never going to be presented to them…
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I think I get what you’re saying…but the crux of my objection has to do with your stating that abortion “happens inevitably.” The inevitable result of abortion is that the child’s life, with all its chances, is cut short. Is that what you mean? It is very different to say that abortion itself is inevitable, because it’s not…it is a choice to terminate a life that will otherwise (almost inevitably) result in the birth of a child. The baby that was aborted DID have the chance to “have the path laid out for them to make choices.” The path was there, and it was cut short. No such “path” existed for the a potential child of a patient who has a vasectomy, since the child itself never existed.
 
I just wanted to say, “Good job” to psychologist101.

Honestly, I think you have done all that is in your power to do, and your officemate continues to make the same decision. I’m sorry that your words did not have an immediate affect, but I am glad that you spoke up against the notion that children are a burden and an “option” in marriage.

I think it takes an understanding of God to get why going through this will hurt him, his family and others. One needs to understand that going against the will of God is sinful, that we must try to live in communion with God and with each other and that sin hurts communion.

Just some thoughts that I had:
  1. Having children benefits a couple. They become less selfish and more giving. Hopefully these qualities lead them to treat each other better too.
  2. Sterilization separates sex, a procreative act, from one of its purposes. Couples who do that negate the power and beauty of the gift of sex. They try to have the good times without any responsibility. It turns sex into something else, something selfish.
  3. No form of birth control is 100% effective, not even vasectomies. Have he and his wife talked about what they would do if the operation doesn’t go as planned and she becomes pregnant?
  4. Often times a vasectomy is not reversable. What if he changes his mind? Many people do!
 
He’s agnostic… he’s selfish… he doesn’t want kids - ever… his wife doesn’t want kids… ever… I actually pity the child that would be conceived by these two… I don’t have a problem with him getting the vasectomy. Better than child was never conceived rather than murdered in his mother’s womb.
 
Can anyone answer how his getting a vasectomy is harmful, either to himself or to society?
 
You should check out the “Theology of the Body” threads around here. I’m not any good at explaining it, but the theory is that contraception (whether permanent or not) says to your spouse, “I just want you for sex. I don’t want to fully share every part of me, which includes my fertility.”
 
I can think of several things: First of all your friend is offending the “society” of the dead…that is to say, those folks whose DNA brought him into the world. Life seeks itself, and being the agnostic scientist that he is, he is probably running contrary to his own theories that only the fittest survive. Unless I read this wrong, his willingness to cut off the DNA of himself and all of the ancestors of his that have contributed to his existence makes him one of those who are “unfit” for survival, since he will not. They labored in vain, so to speak.
-Secondly, this foolishness which he embraces is extremely likely to end up embedded in his philosophy when dealing with others (I deduces from you that he is studying to become some sort of therapist) in which case, his total wrongness might possibly lead to the destruction of the souls of others, as well as the definite destruction of his own soul. I would hate like hell to send anyone to be “set straight” by a professional whose beliefs are so contrary to good mental health. What sort of “wellness” is that?
-Thirdly, who does this fool believe will populate the world if his views are perpetuated? Check it out to see how many societies who thought this way survived and he’ll see they didn’t. The folks they looked down upon, those who randomly had children without his “standards” eventually outnumbered and took over their societies (Northern Ireland is a good example here- not even close to enough English or Protestants to keep their likes going, and the despised Irish outnumber them 10 to 1). Everything he believes in could be wiped out by the perpetuation of his own philosophy.
-Fourthly, who will have children that will take care of this %$#$# in his old age- pay social security, fight wars that will preserve his freedom, make the goods he buys and the food he eats? Does he expect everyone else to provide providers but not him? What if we weaken our genetic pool or God forbid, have no morally consciencious people left in this country? Who will have babies in the third world or in the Middle East that might want to invade here and get for themselves all the luxuries those “disposable” ancestors worked hard for, sacrificed for, and then handed it to him who thought only of himself?
-Fifthly, and only when he has resisted all other arguments, who will want to bury him when there isn’t a soul left in the world to worry if his sorry carcass is left out for the buzzards?
 
well having had a vasectomy myself at age 21 1/2, i can relate to your friend’s thinking.

i have never wanted children a day in my entire life. i had the vasectomy way before i met my wife, and i told her about it. she understood and asked me if i was “open to life”, even the smallest chance. i said yes, knowing full well that id never, ever have children. my urologist was pioneering and testing a form of vasectomy that cuts and scars a good bit of vas deferens. being 21 and in college, i actually could sit on my hands and do absolutely nothing for 3 weeks afterward, thus reducing the risk of imflammation and possible attatchment back together by any scar tissue.

for me it was sort of like asking: “would you have fought in world war 2?” of course i can say “yes” because ill never be presented with that chance, not in a million years. theres no risk involved. my urologist told me id have a better chance of being bitten by a great white shark in the mountains, than having any children.

the theory behind anti-vasectomy is what i call the “hocus-pocus” approach. there is no real, definite, and tangible negative effect on society or other people from being sterilized. its more of a “going against God’s plan” type of wrong.

if you dont take religion seriously, then the whole “god’s design” argument doesnt hold water.
 
Bio (Icannot use that other word in describing your name)
I refer you to the above- in its’ entirety.
 
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iserve:
Bio (Icannot use that other word in describing your name)
I refer you to the above- in its’ entirety.
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You can’t refer to him as “Catholic” because of something he did when he was in his early 20’s??? How do you know he hasn’t confessed & been forgiven?

Gosh… remind me never to tell you about the things I did when I was young & foolish! :o
 
im not advocating sterilization at all. when it comes to me answering to people why what i did to myself was wrong:

if i dont use the words “god”, “god’s design”, or anything based in catholicism, i really cannot answer.

if a person doesnt accept catholic theology, then what argument is there that says sterilization is a grave as we say it is? maybe i didnt say it correctly, but i am as lost as psychologist or many other people about the SECULAR argument.

if people dont accept that sex must be unitive and procreative, then what is stopping them from getting sterilized? i honestly cant think of one secular reason that sterilization of a person negatively and significantly impacts society or other people.

i can’t make myself want children. i CAN accept that i made a choice that is very against the CC teaching, and that ive asked for forgiveness for that matter, and try to stay within the lines from now on.

why i call it “hocus-pocus” is because if a person doesnt accept religious doctrine, then saying sterilization is against God’s plan for sex is just hocus-pocus to them because they want real concrete answers as to why it is wrong in human terms.
 
“i have never wanted children in my entire life” “i said yes knowing that i never would”
What am I to draw from these statements? It certainly wasn’t apparent to me that you were saying you now thought otherwise. If you were inferring that you were against it, this also was not clear to me.

Anyway- the argument I persented to you could easily be considered scientific, since I was speaking about principles of evolution, historical sociological trends, welfare and social resposibility, and finally, the natural tendency to want someone to mourn our loss when wer are gone. None of these are specific to religion, but rather, facts related to life seeking to renew itself. Moral weight is often shrouded in “Social Good” by people who desire to strip God from their original meaning, but they cannot get around the need to be a “team player” as part of a society, since we all must pay taxes, social security, and other fees that contribute toward the welfare of all. This usually appeals to atheists who believe in “public good” , and who would be ashamed of “forcing” their liberation from God on those who love him if it weren’t clouded under a college degree or a “professional” license to “lead”. It’s all semantics, and certainly is as much human “hocus pocus” as they think ours is Gods’.
 
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BillP:
I am deeply disturbed by this statement.

Pray for your friend.

Live your life so as to be an example to him. Which Saint said “preach the gospel at all time, use words if neccessary”?

But please do not judge him.
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I am deeply disturbed by your statement. Look, he did say to use words if necessary and this seems to be a situation where words are very necessary!
 
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