Assistant catechist thinking about changing parish

[Brendan]

Everyone has different tastes. Just as I don’t see what you see in Chant, you may not see what I do in more contemporary music.

But Vatican II mandated that chant be given pride of place in the Liturgy. SC 116( or more specifically, the chief place in the liturgy - wdtprs.com/blog/2008/08/quaeritur-wdsc116rs/)

Is that true at your parish? If not, do you think that a parish should ignore the instructions of Vatican II?

Do you think that Vatican II was wrong to make this command?

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Gregorian chant does not lift my soul up to the Lord, though it might do that for some. It does nothing to edify my worship. And it is un-singable for most people.

I just want to point out that this is a very generalized statement which doesn’t have the least bit of truth to it. Gregorian chant is something that many people can pick up.

 

[maryjk]

But Vatican II mandated that chant be given pride of place in the Liturgy. SC 116( or more specifically, the chief place in the liturgy - wdtprs.com/blog/2008/08/quaeritur-wdsc116rs/)

Is that true at your parish?

Yep.

If not, do you think that a parish should ignore the instructions of Vatican II?

Not an issue.

Do you think that Vatican II was wrong to make this command?

Nope.

A place of pride does not mean that I have to like it.

It doesn’t mean that chant is the only music allowed. If it did, they would have said that.

For me, chant grates on my nerves. Watching people try to sing chant? Even worse.

The one Mass I attended where only chant was sung, I couldn’t receive. Why? Because I was not in the right state of mind. :banghead:

 

[DiZent]

I just want to point out that this is a very generalized statement which doesn’t have the least bit of truth to it. Gregorian chant is something that many people can pick up.

Then why are the majority of people not singing?

 

[DiZent]

Yep. Not an issue.
Nope.

A place of pride does not mean that I have to like it.
**
It doesn’t mean that chant is the only music allowed. If it did, they would have said that.**

For me, chant grates on my nerves. Watching people try to sing chant? Even worse.

The one Mass I attended where only chant was sung, I couldn’t receive. Why? Because I was not in the right state of mind. :banghead:

Thank you. I find chant very distracting. It irritates me and takes away from the Mass because I am irritated. I can sing the ICEL chant setting responses in the missalette - they are not that difficult, but I don’t hear many people singing them.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Then why are the majority of people not singing?

• Because they haven’t been singing it week after week after week like many of the modern songs.
• Because chant doesn’t have a catchy tune.
• Because they don’t “like” it.
• Because people are very good at convincing themselves they can’t do something they don’t like.
• Because (in my experience) it’s usually a minority of people who sing no matter what. This will vary parish by parish, but it’s a generalized statement that can be applied to many churches.
• Because Catholics have more to the Mass than singing.
• Because active participation doesn’t mean speaking every response and singing every hymn.
• Because chant is conducive to meditation. Much of the newer hymns are not.
• Because people (some) think that singing Latin is harder than doing a disco with only one leg.

Shall I go on with the list? I could come up with a few more (at least) reasons why people don’t sing chant. None of them are good enough reasons to not have the choir do it.

Also, not everyone is suited to every role. If you were to ask my professional opinion, I’d say that a good share of people are incapable of singing Yankee Doodle.

 

[DiZent]

• Because they haven’t been singing it week after week after week like many of the modern songs.
• Because chant doesn’t have a catchy tune.
• Because they don’t “like” it.
• Because people are very good at convincing themselves they can’t do something they don’t like.
• Because (in my experience) it’s usually a minority of people who sing no matter what. This will vary parish by parish, but it’s a generalized statement that can be applied to many churches.
• Because Catholics have more to the Mass than singing.
• Because active participation doesn’t mean speaking every response and singing every hymn.
• Because chant is conducive to meditation. Much of the newer hymns are not.
• Because people (some) think that singing Latin is harder than doing a disco with only one leg.

Shall I go on with the list? I could come up with a few more (at least) reasons why people don’t sing chant. None of them are good enough reasons to not have the choir do it.

Also, not everyone is suited to every role. If you were to ask my professional opinion, I’d say that a good share of people are incapable of singing Yankee Doodle.

You just hit all the reasons that “Catholics don’t sing”. I sing. I have been singing at church since I was a child. I also play handbells. So yes, the music is important to me.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

The Mass is not a celebration of us. What we do is not for our benefit, but to praise and honor our LORD. With that said, do not let your human tastes get in the way of a properly celebrated and reverent liturgy. Focus not on what you want, but on what is the best way to honor the LORD.

I’ll pray for you and I hope that you pray about this as well.

 

[DarrenOglesby]

Sorry to hear about your parish falling apart. I would disagree with the pastor about cancelling so many programs at the parish. But some things that are used within mass is in control of the pastor.

But he should be open. One of the things I learned at my weekend stay at the Seminary, is to be open.

If I am ever ordained, there would be some things I would within the mass to give reverence to God. Such as celebrating mass ad orientem, inserting some Latin ect. I would also want at least one mass where there is organ only. But any other, let the parish decide what is most prayerful to them.
Just because some of us don’t like the contemporary guitar and drum stuff, doesn’t mean that the people are self centered. It may be the best setting for them to develop a relationship with God.

But that is just my point of view.

 

[maryjk]

The Mass is not a celebration of us. What we do is not for our benefit, but to praise and honor our LORD. With that said, do not let your human tastes get in the way of a properly celebrated and reverent liturgy. Focus not on what you want, but on what is the best way to honor the LORD.

I’ll pray for you and I hope that you pray about this as well.

I guarantee you that I am not focusing on the best way to honor the Lord if I am thinking about my ears bleeding or killing a cat. Me listening to Chant puts me in that frame of mind.

Think of music you hate. Listen to that for an hour. Then think about honoring the Lord. Can you do it? I can’t. And listening to it again and again, just…well…it just pisses me off.

 

[Elisabeth51]

Well, if you stick with chant, you will eventually like it better, especially if you do so in an attitude of obedience to Church teaching and a feeling of continuity with the saints since the 5th century. And if you stick with a disobedient pastor, you will like that better eventually. This decision matters. I would spend a lot of time in prayer, and possibly read Sacrosanctum Concilium (vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html), before deciding anything permanent.

–Jen

I agree with reading Sacrosanctum Concilium and the other documents on the liturgy and Mass.
Also, Musicam Sacram vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_instr_19670305_musicam-sacram_en.html

I think everyone should, there is a lot to be learned from reading the documents themselves.

Chant is to be given the pride of place, the pipe organ as well. I say this as a cantor and organ student–chant can be done badly…if it’s dragged out it is sheer torture as far as I’m concerned, same if it is rushed. There is a “just right” speed at which it is meditative and beautiful. I sometimes struggle with finding that tempo, but I know that is the basis of some people’s dislike. There is a lot of liturgical music that is written around these chants, beautiful music that is for the Mass.

 

[ZoeyBdo]

I found the settings I like online. Mass of Glory, composed by Ken Canedo and Bob Hurd and revised in compliance with the new translation. This is the music of the Mass that echos in my heart all week. I suppose I could attend the quiet Mass on Sunday and listen to the CD during the week.

No offense, everyone has different tastes, but I think if I heard this in church I’d wonder if I had walked into the wrong church.

this is more my speed:

youtube.com/watch?v=rgpOgDLXXp4

And I’m in my early 30’s…

 

[DiZent]

No offense, everyone has different tastes, but I think if I heard this in church I’d wonder if I had walked into the wrong church.

this is more my speed:

youtube.com/watch?v=rgpOgDLXXp4

And I’m in my early 30’s…

Yes, that was pretty, but it would not have “echoed in my heart” throughout the week. I did not like the arrangement for the Glory to God in the revised Mass of Glory setting, but I like the rest of it. I am in my 50s, cradle Catholic & revert since 1985. There are many traditional hymns I like and even a few Latin ones.

 

[DiZent]

The Mass is not a celebration of us. What we do is not for our benefit, but to praise and honor our LORD. With that said, do not let your human tastes get in the way of a properly celebrated and reverent liturgy. Focus not on what you want, but on what is the best way to honor the LORD.

I’ll pray for you and I hope that you pray about this as well.

At my parish I can do this at the quiet Mass, where there is no chant to irritate me. At the neighboring parish, I am totally focused on and participating in the Mass until the pastor says something off the wall during his homily. I e-mailed him about this and he suggested I meet with him and talk about my concerns.

 

[DiZent]

I agree with reading Sacrosanctum Concilium and the other documents on the liturgy and Mass.
Also, Musicam Sacram vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_instr_19670305_musicam-sacram_en.html

I think everyone should, there is a lot to be learned from reading the documents themselves.

Chant is to be given the pride of place, the pipe organ as well. I say this as a cantor and organ student–chant can be done badly…if it’s dragged out it is sheer torture as far as I’m concerned, same if it is rushed. There is a “just right” speed at which it is meditative and beautiful. I sometimes struggle with finding that tempo, but I know that is the basis of some people’s dislike. There is a lot of liturgical music that is written around these chants, beautiful music that is for the Mass.

I would not be complaining if it was 1) well done, and 2) reserved for solemn occasions. We have a pipe organ!!! Pride of place does not make it mandatory. The documents don’t say that, and other than the very few contemporary songs that had some un-Catholic lyrics, this music is still approved for use at Mass. I understand that chant was under-utilized for a long time and that those who preferred it were denied their preference. But they obviously learned nothing because they wish to deny contemporary hymns to those who appreciate them.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

You just hit all the reasons that “Catholics don’t sing”. I sing. I have been singing at church since I was a child. I also play handbells. So yes, the music is important to me.

You do realize that once again you’re using the experiences of one person (yourself) to come to a conclusion of what everyone likes, don’t you? I could do that, too. For instance, unless I’m actually the cantor or in the choir, I don’t sing at all. Does that mean that music isn’t important to me? Hardly. I play the organ, piano, a little accordion… So yeah, just because a person plays an instrument doesn’t mean that he’s going to be singing. Again, over generalization on your part.

 

[DiZent]

You do realize that once again you’re using the experiences of one person (yourself) to come to a conclusion of what everyone likes, don’t you? I could do that, too. For instance, unless I’m actually the cantor or in the choir, I don’t sing at all. Does that mean that music isn’t important to me? Hardly. I play the organ, piano, a little accordion… So yeah, just because a person plays an instrument doesn’t mean that he’s going to be singing. Again, over generalization on your part.

The whole “Catholics don’t sing” is a generalization held by many. It has been my experience, in general, that since the change in music at my parish, not many people, musician or not, are singing.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

That has been my experience, in general.

And mine has been the exact opposite. That’s why an individual’s experiences aren’t a good measuring point.

 

[Brendan]

A place of pride does not mean that I have to like it.

Agreed

It doesn’t mean that chant is the only music allowed. If it did, they would have said that.

Nope, but neither does it mean ‘excluded’ or ‘only used during Lent’

Pride of Place ( or really, the Principal Place) means that it should be one of, if not THE, principal, mode of music in a parish.

Watching people try to sing chant? Even worse.//quote]

Come to our parish, all of us use chant every Sunday. Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei

 

[maryjk]

Agreed

Nope, but neither does it mean ‘excluded’ or ‘only used during Lent’

Pride of Place ( or really, the Principal Place) means that it should be one of, if not THE, principal, mode of music in a parish.

Come to our parish, all of us use chant every Sunday. Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei

We have one Mass where all they sing is chant.

It is the least populated Mass.

The other Masses have chant interwoven through the Mass.