Assisted Reproductive Technology always wrong?

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I know and understand completely what the Catholic teaches on IVF; however, my husband and I used IVF to have our first child. I spoke to my priest and I prayed over our decision.

I have always had a very strong desire to carry a child of my own and the three times I was lucky enough to do it were the were some of the greatest blessings in my whole life, and I truly believe God was with me every step of the way.

I have had hard line Catholic tell me that I will not be saved until I repent for my decision which is something I just won’t do.
 
Usige said:
Here is a link to a rundown from Dr. Hanna Klaus writing for the USCCB’s Natural Family Planning Program (Reproductive Technology Guidelines for Catholic Couples).
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Thank you for posting, that was very well explained. From those guidelines, this line makes it seem that IUI and GIFT are not permissible:
Procedures which add a “third party” into the act of conception, or which substitute a laboratory procedure for intercourse, are not acceptable.
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One could argue that the “third party” is not in the act of conception as the doctor is allowing fertilization to take place in the woman’s body. And one could argue that inserting gametes in the fallopian tube is not substituting intercourse because the semen would not have been able to be injected had intercourse not taken place earlier.

But it kind of seems like a stretch in some ways? Especially if it is necessary to have a single linked act. But I guess the Church has not specified if there needs to be a single linked act?
 
shelby_sun said:
I know and understand completely what the Catholic teaches on IVF; however, my husband and I used IVF to have our first child. I spoke to my priest and I prayed over our decision.

I have always had a very strong desire to carry a child of my own and the three times I was lucky enough to do it were the were some of the greatest blessings in my whole life, and I truly believe God was with me every step of the way.

I have had hard line Catholic tell me that I will not be saved until I repent for my decision which is something I just won’t do.
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Thank you for posting and sharing your story. I appreciate the bravery.

May I ask what your beliefs are about abortion, abortifacient contraception, and
when life begins? Do you believe that life begins at conception? Do you assume that conception occurs at fertilization? What I’m trying to understand is how you were able to resolve your feelings about the usual recommendation that the doctor fertilizes multiple eggs and the couple having to choose which embryos to try to implant and which to leave behind.
 
chelseasands said:
I know that is really shocking…

I am really surprised about the first one having so many
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I think it’s just because the first option is “I agree” and the next three are “I disagree” a quick skimmer might not realize that there are other “I agree with the Church” options further down and think it’s just a simple “Do you agree with the church or not?” poll.

I almost made the same mistake myself!
 
This is another one of those topics where I cannot wrap my head around the Church’s position. Science, logic, reason, and intuition all point me in the other direction. If someone has something medically wrong with them - let’s say they have cancer, for instance, they undergo medical procedures to treat the disease. If someone is infertile, they can undergo medical treatment to cure their condition. To me, that is progress. The notion that someone who is infertile should “just deal with it” is insensitive at best. Why should infertility be different than cancer? Let’s say that the cancer was a result of a smoking habit. Even though the person was directly responsible for their cancer, we would still wish them all the best and encourage their medical treatment. However, the person who is infertile - through no fault of their own - is NOT permitted to treat their condition?? Every fiber of my being disagrees with that.
 
Mulligan2 said:
This is another one of those topics where I cannot wrap my head around the Church’s position. Science, logic, reason, and intuition all point me in the other direction. If someone has something medically wrong with them - let’s say they have cancer, for instance, they undergo medical procedures to treat the disease. If someone is infertile, they can undergo medical treatment to cure their condition. To me, that is progress. The notion that someone who is infertile should “just deal with it” is insensitive at best. Why should infertility be different than cancer? Let’s say that the cancer was a result of a smoking habit. Even though the person was directly responsible for their cancer, we would still wish them all the best and encourage their medical treatment. However, the person who is infertile - through no fault of their own - is NOT permitted to treat their condition?? Every fiber of my being disagrees with that.
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It is an exaggeration of the Church’s position to say that the medical condition of infertility cannot be treated. It can. The question is whether the treatment really is a treatment, or is it an illicit way around the problem. IVF, for example, is not so much a treatment for infertility as it is an alternate means to produce babies. The underlying problem that caused the infertility is not actually changed. The Church is not against actual medical treatments that make the normal process of procreation work better.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
It is an exaggeration of the Church’s position to say that the medical condition of infertility cannot be treated. It can. The question is whether the treatment really is a treatment, or is it an illicit way around the problem. IVF, for example, is not so much a treatment for infertility as it is an alternate means to produce babies. The underlying problem that caused the infertility is not actually changed. The Church is not against actual medical treatments that make the normal process of procreation work better.
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The many couples who have successfully used IVF would most certainly consider it a treatment.
 
Mulligan2 said:
The many couples who have successfully used IVF would most certainly consider it a treatment.
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Are you certain? Even among those who have gotten babies using IVF, the more rational among them will realize that their defective reproductive systems are still defective. The only thing that was “treated” was their lack of a baby.
 
CatholicRabbit said:
Thank you for posting and sharing your story. I appreciate the bravery.

May I ask what your beliefs are about abortion, abortifacient contraception, and
when life begins? Do you believe that life begins at conception? Do you assume that conception occurs at fertilization? What I’m trying to understand is how you were able to resolve your feelings about the usual recommendation that the doctor fertilizes multiple eggs and the couple having to choose which embryos to try to implant and which to leave behind.
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I am sorry I misspoke. I had artificial insemination, my sister had IVF. I tied for several months to get pregnant, doing all the charting and temperature which was an extreme stress on my marriage. After many months my doctor found that I had some medical issues which were preventing pregnancy, so we chose to get help.

My sister allowed only three eggs to be used because she didn’t feel she could carry more and did not want a fertilized egg to be destroyed. I never really had an in depth conversation about her situation. I understand that most people think you always fertilize so many eggs so that either eggs are frozen and left or are destroyed; however, I guess if you have the means you can limit the number of eggs and repeat the process.

I truly understand the Church’s teaching on the loving relationship of the sexual relationship in a marriage, but I have seen many people almost destroyed by the fact that they cannot have a child of there own. I had planned to adopt my next child, but I ended up pregnant on our own 11 months after my son was born.
 
Mulligan2 said:
The many couples who have successfully used IVF would most certainly consider it a treatment.
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Yeah but that doesn’t mean that it is. Instead of treating and curing diseases, women are forced to undergo “treatments” and procedures that simply mask symptoms but do not cure underlying causes. This is seen in contraceptive methods, Cesarean sections, infertility treatments, treatment for abnormal cycles or pelvic pain.

There is treatment available that not only treats infertility and these other issues but CURES them by treating the underlying causes of these symptoms. You were right to feel that it is unfair that infertility should go untreated and the Church agrees with you! The Church approves and encourages these types of natural treatments that treat the underlying causes and respect the dignity of the human person.

You mentioned cancer earlier. The Church of course approves ethical treatments for cancer. But the Church does not approve of unethical treatments for cancer such as embryonic stem cell research that involves the destruction of human embryos. Similarly, the Church does not approve of IVF as a “treatment” for infertility as it involves the destruction of human embryos and violates the dignity of the husband and wife.

👍 Rule of thumb: Treatments that respect the dignity of the human person- Approved 🙂
Treatments that do not respect the dignity of the human person- not approved 😦

Examples:
Human Embryonic Stem Cell Research- no approved 😦
All other types of Stem Cell Research- approved 🙂
Naprotechnology- Approved 🙂
In Vitro Fertilization- not approved 😦
 
Stella_Matutina said:
Yeah but that doesn’t mean that it is. Instead of treating and curing diseases, women are forced to undergo “treatments” and procedures that simply mask symptoms but do not cure underlying causes. This is seen in contraceptive methods, Cesarean sections, infertility treatments, treatment for abnormal cycles or pelvic pain.

There is treatment available that not only treats infertility and these other issues but CURES them by treating the underlying causes of these symptoms. You were right to feel that it is unfair that infertility should go untreated and the Church agrees with you! The Church approves and encourages these types of natural treatments that treat the underlying causes and respect the dignity of the human person.

You mentioned cancer earlier. The Church of course approves ethical treatments for cancer. But the Church does not approve of unethical treatments for cancer such as embryonic stem cell research that involves the destruction of human embryos. Similarly, the Church does not approve of IVF as a “treatment” for infertility as it involves the destruction of human embryos and violates the dignity of the husband and wife.

👍 Rule of thumb: Treatments that respect the dignity of the human person- Approved 🙂
Treatments that do not respect the dignity of the human person- not approved 😦

Examples:
Human Embryonic Stem Cell Research- no approved 😦
All other types of Stem Cell Research- approved 🙂
Naprotechnology- Approved 🙂
In Vitro Fertilization- not approved 😦
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IVF violates the dignity of the husband and wife?? I haven’t heard that one before. The couple certainly doesn’t believe that.

Only 13% of Catholics believe IVF is wrong. Change happens very slowly within the Church. Science and technology moves much more quickly.
 
Mulligan2 said:
Only 13% of Catholics believe IVF is wrong. Change happens very slowly within the Church. Science and technology moves much more quickly.
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Which only means that 87% of Catholics are poorly catechized in this area. :confused:

Just because most Catholics have bought into a lie does not mean the teaching should change. The moral teachings of the Church are not something that is subject to popular vote. IVF separates sex and procreation just as contraception does. They are opposite sides of the same coin (my will above all else) and both are morally repugnant.
 
Mulligan2 said:
IVF violates the dignity of the husband and wife?? I haven’t heard that one before. The couple certainly doesn’t believe that.

Only 13% of Catholics believe IVF is wrong. Change happens very slowly within the Church. Science and technology moves much more quickly.
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I noticed out of all of what I said in my previous post, that this is what caught your attention and not the fact that the Church opposes IVF because it involves the destruction of human embryos. That alone is reason enough and the Church is never going to change their opinion on this.

And just because a couple believe that it does not violate their dignity doesn’t mean that it doesn’t. Just as with other sexual sins, just because a couple doesn’t believe fornication is wrong, doesn’t make it right.

IVF violates the dignity of husband and wife as it invites a third party (doctor) into the sacred marital act that is to be procreative and unitive. Instead of life being procreated in a loving embrace, the life is created in a petri dish in a clinic.

Just because technology can achieve something doesn’t mean we should do it.
 
Stella_Matutina said:
And just because a couple believe that it does not violate their dignity doesn’t mean that it doesn’t.
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Yes it does.

If they have respect themselves, you aren’t part of the equation. Lack of dignity isn’t something you can thrust upon them.
 
Weren’t you the on who quoted the Catechism earlier???

I’m not thrusting anything on anyone. I’m just restating what it clearly says in the Catechism that I’ll quote again:
They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. the act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that “entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the **dignity **and equality that must be common to parents and children.” "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses’ union. . . . Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the **dignity **of the person.
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Emphasis added.

I’ll stand by what I stated earlier that just because someone believes that a certain action doesn’t *violate *their dignity doesn’t make it so.

I noticed that you changed the wording to “lack of dignity” in your response instead of the word “violate.” No one is saying that there are certain people who “lack dignity.”
 
Stella_Matutina said:
Weren’t you the on who quoted the Catechism earlier???

I’m not thrusting anything on anyone. I’m just restating what it clearly says in the Catechism that I’ll quote again:

Emphasis added.

I’ll stand by what I stated earlier that just because someone believes that a certain action doesn’t *violate *their dignity doesn’t make it so.

I noticed that you changed the wording to “lack of dignity” in your response instead of the word “violate.” No one is saying that there are certain people who “lack dignity.”
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Dignity is inherent. You can lack dignity but it is something you forfeit. You can’t have it taken from you. If they feel their dignity is intact it is. Their worth is inherent.
 
Roscoe_Turner said:
Dignity is inherent. You can lack dignity but it is something you forfeit. You can’t have it taken from you. If they feel their dignity is intact it is. Their worth is inherent.
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No one is disagreeing with you about that.

That doesn’t change that IVF is contrary to human dignity, therefore violating it.
 
Roscoe_Turner said:
Are you saying the more sinful a person the less dignity their life has?
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No. Why would you think I am implying this? I am simply restating what is written in the Catechism that you yourself quoted.

I never said that IVF takes away a person’s dignity. I said that it VIOLATES human dignity as the Catechism states that those types of technology are not in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

Definition of violate from Webster’s:
: to do something that is not allowed by (a law, rule, etc.)
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: to take away, interfere with, or ignore (something, such as a person’s rights or privacy) in an unfair or illegal way
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: to abuse or show disrespect for (something, such as a holy place) usually by damaging it
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