Assisted Reproductive Technology always wrong?

  • Thread starter Thread starter CatholicRabbit
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
No. Why would you think I am implying this? I am simply restating what is written in the Catechism that you yourself quoted.

I never said that IVF takes away a person’s dignity. I said that it VIOLATES human dignity as the Catechism states that those types of technology are not in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

Definition of violate from Webster’s:
Because you stated
And just because a couple believe that it does not violate their dignity doesn’t mean that it doesn’t.
It doesn’t violate the couple’s dignity. Their inherent dignity is intact.

The dignity of human life is violated when “unused” zygotes are discarded.

It’s not as if because they are sinful they diminish their dignity.
 
Are you saying the more sinful a person the less dignity their life has?
Can you guys quit arguing about this?

When did anyone ever say that a person has less dignity if they use assisted reproductive technologies?

Read Donum Vitae
Fertilization achieved outside the bodies of the couple remains by this very fact deprived of the meanings and the values which are expressed in the language of the body and in the union of human persons.
c) Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person.
IVF is procreation NOT in conformity with the dignity of the human person. PERIOD.
 
Because you stated

It doesn’t violate the couple’s dignity. Their inherent dignity is intact.

The dignity of human life is violated when “unused” zygotes are discarded.

It’s not as if because they are sinful they diminish their dignity.
This is the last thing I will say about this because, you are right CR, this is getting old. I must not be explaining myself very clearly because I feel like I am just repeating the same information over and over without results.

IVF VIOLATES the couple’s/marriage/conjugal act’s dignity. And not just because of the “unused” zygotes being discarded, but because the procreative aspect of their marital act is being replaced by technology. The fertilization is taking place outside of the woman’s body and this is a violation of her dignity.

Another useful quote from Donum Vitae that CR quoted earlier:
Such fertilization is in itself illicit and in opposition to the dignity of procreation and of the conjugal union, even when everything is done to avoid the death of the human embryo.
Just because something violates the dignity of a person, marriage, union, sacred act, procreation, whatever DOES NOT MEAN THAT A PERSON LOSES THEIR INHERENT DIGNITY. Please, please, please, go back and read the definition of violate. Violate does not mean lessen.

I am done now. If you still don’t understand what I am saying and are trying to say that I am saying that I think sinful people lack dignity then I don’t know what else to say to convince you otherwise.

It is not just me making this up and saying this as my opinion. This is the teaching of the Church. It is spelled out in black and white in the documents cited.
 
This is the last thing I will say about this because, you are right CR, this is getting old. I must not be explaining myself very clearly because I feel like I am just repeating the same information over and over without results.

IVF VIOLATES the couple’s/marriage/conjugal act’s dignity. .
The couple, the marriage and the conjugal act are 3 things. You originally stated it violated the couple. I thought you misspoke. It’s not the couple who are violated. That’s all. 😃
 
Every human being has a dignity that can never be taken away. With that being said, you can violate, injure, sin against, act contrary to a person’s dignity and your own dignity.

Violation does not mean the dignity is taken away.

I am standing by what the Church teaches in that IVF violates the dignity of the husband and wife and the children involved.

We will just have to agree to disagree about semantics.
 
Every human being has a dignity that can never be taken away. With that being said, you can violate, injure, sin against, act contrary to a person’s dignity and your own dignity.

Violation does not mean the dignity is taken away.

I am standing by what the Church teaches in that IVF violates the dignity of the husband and wife and the children involved.

We will just have to agree to disagree about semantics.
I think it’s an important distinction. If you violate the dignity of a marriage, it’s not the same as the dignity of the people that are joined in the marriage. People have inherent dignity, marriage isn’t a person. Marriages can be annulled, people can not.

If you claim people’s divinity is violated by the act then the violation should increase with each infraction, this would mean that a persons dignity would lesson exponentially. That would mean that you could sin yourself out of dignity. Can’t happen. It’s inherent.

Even though people may choose to pursue IVF which is sinful by the teaching of the Church it doesn’t decrease their inherent value.
 
I think it’s an important distinction. If you violate the dignity of a marriage, it’s not the same as the dignity of the people that are joined in the marriage. People have inherent dignity, marriage isn’t a person. Marriages can be annulled, people can not.

If you claim people’s divinity is violated by the act then the violation should increase with each infraction, this would mean that a persons dignity would lesson exponentially. That would mean that you could sin yourself out of dignity. Can’t happen. It’s inherent.

Even though people may choose to pursue IVF which is sinful by the teaching of the Church it doesn’t decrease their inherent value.
I also agree that the distinction is important. Dignity violations do not lessen one’s dignity.

It is not incorrect to say that sin violates a person’s dignity. At the same time, as you said, you cannot sin yourself out of dignity.

Let’s take a look at the definition of violate again:
: to do something that is not allowed by (a law, rule, etc.)
: to take away, interfere with, or ignore (something, such as a person’s rights or privacy) in an unfair or illegal way
: to abuse or show disrespect for (something, such as a holy place) usually by damaging it
Let’s look at each definition one by one. In this case, “violating a person’s dignity” is
  1. to do something that is not allowed by the natural law
  2. Ignoring the person’s dignity in an unfair way
  3. And showing disrespect for the person’s dignity
Notice how there are critical conjugations such as “OR” and “USUALLY” within each definition.

Therefore, it is correct English to say that IVF and/or other sins violate person(s) dignity.

Let’s look at some other examples of how this definition of violate is used:
From this article here:
Because basic to the Catholic Church’s stance against torture and/or the abuse of prisoners is the belief that such practices violate a persons God-given dignity. In fact, some say that torture violates the human dignity, not only of the person who is tortured, but of those who impose the torture.
Or this post from “The Art of NFP.”
In vitro fertilization violates the dignity of husband, wife and child: each is manipulated; their bodies are treated as sources of biological material (much like vending machines).
The word violate in these examples is used synonymously with “does injury” as in the cases in these examples from the Catechism.
In regards to pornography:
It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world.
In regards to prostitution:
Prostitution does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure. The one who pays sins gravely against himself: he violates the chastity to which his Baptism pledged him and defiles his body, the temple of the Holy Spirit.
I apologize to anyone who mistook my use of the word violate to mean “take away” but as we have learned from reviewing the definition of violate, it can also alternatively mean “to ignore.”

So therefore, I will continue to stand with the Church’s stance that IVF violates the husband, wife, and children’s dignity.
 
I think I just killed this thread. :knight2:

Anyone else out there really disturbed that the poll indicates people are really confused about what is right, what is wrong, and what the Church teaches about this?

:crossrc:Lord, have mercy on us for we know not what we do.

The catechesis about this really needs to improve. I wish there were more we could do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top