Assumption Blessed Virgin Mother Mary

[Giggly_Giraffe]

Did the Blessed Virgin Mother Mary die then Assumed into heaven OR was she Assumed into heaven without dying?

 

[celestialhost]

Catholic dogma does not specify either position as correct. However, the tradition of the Blessed Virgin dying before her assumption is very strong.

I don’t feel that impressed with the theological arguments for her dying and would like to think of her passing into heaven without death, like Elijah or Enoch, but the evidence from tradition is strong.

 

[Valdemar]

This was a “Protestant-Unfriendly” dogma that I, as a previous elder in the Christian Reformed Church rebelled against.

Until I was utterly convinced of its truth.

Since then and after my conversion my love for our Lord has expanded to His friends and earthly family.

 

[SighGuy]

Yeah, as far as I’m aware there is no defined answer, although it is the prevailing opinion I believe that she died.

This is fine by me, although I once was a little reticent to accept it. Her Son died, and was resurrected. Now she has died and, by her Son, has been resurrected and brought into Heaven. She is the front-runner of all of us. “For you shall not leave my soul among the dead, or let your holy one see corruption.” I like that it can apply to her as well as to Our Lord.

 

[JamalChristophr]

No definite position in Catholic Tradition. It’s held by many that Our Lady wished to taste death because her Son did. She certainly did not have to do this, but she **chose **to follow her Son’s path to be ever more perfectly united to Him and His Passion.

Being sinless, though, it’s quite plausible and possible that she could have gone straight to Heaven at the end of her life here on earth without experiencing death. For as scripture states, the “wages of sin is death.”

 

[Memaw]

Did the Blessed Virgin Mother Mary die then Assumed into heaven OR was she Assumed into heaven without dying?

The Church teaches that when her earthly life was over, she was assumed into Heaven, body and soul. Death is the separation of body and soul. That never happened to Mary. There was no need for her to die as we know it. She was created Immaculate and never sinned. Death would have cast a shadow on her life. Many think it pious to believe that Mary died because Jesus did. What purpose would that have served? None whatsoever! I think the moment Mary was taken into Heaven was so precious to God that NO ONE was allowed to witness it. We humans, no matter how saintly, can imagine all we want but none of us will know for sure until we get to Heaven. And the Church does NOT teach that she actually died. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Nelka]

I think she died first.

It doesn’t matter either way as long as we believe that she was assumed into Heaven.

 

[MattofTexas]

The Catholic Church does not dogmatically teach either position, only that at the end of her life she was assumed, body and soul, into heaven. The tradition and feast of the Dormition of the Mother of God suggest that she may have died before being assumed into heaven, but when the dogma was defined it was not specified. According to Wikipedia Pope St. John Paul II embraced the idea that she died before being assumed.

 

[pianistclare]

The Church teaches that when her earthly life was over, she was assumed into Heaven, body and soul. Death is the separation of body and soul. That never happened to Mary. There was no need for her to die as we know it. She was created Immaculate and never sinned. Death would have cast a shadow on her life. Many think it pious to believe that Mary died because Jesus did. What purpose would that have served? None whatsoever! I think the moment Mary was taken into Heaven was so precious to God that NO ONE was allowed to witness it. We humans, no matter how saintly, can imagine all we want but none of us will know for sure until we get to Heaven. And the Church does NOT teach that she actually died. God Bless, Memaw

that’s how I learned it. If it were not for sin, we’d all still be living in paradise.

 

[otjm]

The Church teaches that when her earthly life was over, she was assumed into Heaven, body and soul. Death is the separation of body and soul. That never happened to Mary. There was no need for her to die as we know it. She was created Immaculate and never sinned. Death would have cast a shadow on her life. Many think it pious to believe that Mary died because Jesus did. What purpose would that have served? None whatsoever! I think the moment Mary was taken into Heaven was so precious to God that NO ONE was allowed to witness it. We humans, no matter how saintly, can imagine all we want but none of us will know for sure until we get to Heaven. And the Church does NOT teach that she actually died. God Bless, Memaw

Resurrection also implies a glorified body. If she didn’t die, then how is her body glorified (which clearly indicates change)?

 

[Memaw]

The Catholic Church does not dogmatically teach either position, only that at the end of her life she was assumed, body and soul, into heaven. The tradition and feast of the Dormition of the Mother of God suggest that she may have died before being assumed into heaven, but when the dogma was defined it was not specified. According to Wikipedia Pope St. John Paul II embraced the idea that she died before being assumed.

I understand that Dormition means a form of “falling asleep” not dying. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

Resurrection also implies a glorified body. If she didn’t die, then how is her body glorified (which clearly indicates change)?

Adam and Eve would have been Glorified at the end of their earthly time if they hadn’t sinned. With God, Nothing is impossible, Where does it say we have to die to be Glorified .Death is a punishment for sin. Jesus suffered it for OUR sake!!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

Resurrection also implies a glorified body. If she didn’t die, then how is her body glorified (which clearly indicates change)?

I believe resurrection of ALL bodies was finalized at judgement day. This allows for the hand that participated in steeling to be punished with the soul (in Hell) or to reward the hand that gave drink to the thirsty with the soul (in heaven). Resurrection will unite all of mankind and then sort, and separate each body into its eternal place.

Memaw indicates death as a punishment for sin; which is correct. We can also look at death as the end of sin/wrongdoings. God told us that evil would not reign forever, and it’s logical that this time span of exploring good and evil is finalized with death.

The Blessed Virgin Mother Mary did witness and feel extreme effects of good and evil. Since we are next introduced to her in Revelations dressed in the Sun (glorified) standing on the moon , with a crown of twelve stars , and stomping on the head of the serpent (death/end of evil) we might conclude she is not fully glorified as she is still cleaning up the mess from sin. Might we say she becomes more glorious after squishing the serpEnt? Thereby leaving a possibility that she never experience earthly death but increases in glory until the final of evils trickery?

 

[MattofTexas]

I understand that Dormition means a form of “falling asleep” not dying. God Bless, Memaw

“Falling asleep” is sometimes used as a euphemism for death. Consider 1 Cor 15:16-20

16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.

20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.

As you can see, St. Paul employs the phrase “falling asleep” to describe those who have died. There are other examples of this in the Bible such as 1 Thes 4:13-18.

 

[babochka]

I understand that Dormition means a form of “falling asleep” not dying. God Bless, Memaw

“Falling asleep in the Lord” is the euphemism that Eastern Christians, Catholic and Orthodox both, use to refer to the death of a Christian who is awaiting the resurrection.

 

[babochka]

The Catholic Church does not dogmatically teach either position, only that at the end of her life she was assumed, body and soul, into heaven. The tradition and feast of the Dormition of the Mother of God suggest that she may have died before being assumed into heaven, but when the dogma was defined it was not specified. According to Wikipedia Pope St. John Paul II embraced the idea that she died before being assumed.

As did Pope Pius XII, who proclaimed the dogma. In the document in which the dogma is proclaimed, he refers to her death several times and never brings up any belief contrary to a belief in her death.

Here is one example:

1. However, since the liturgy of the Church does not engender the Catholic faith, but rather springs from it, in such a way that the practices of the sacred worship proceed from the faith as the fruit comes from the tree, it follows that the holy Fathers and the great Doctors, in the homilies and sermons they gave the people on this feast day, did not draw their teaching from the feast itself as from a primary source, but rather they spoke of this doctrine as something already known and accepted by Christ’s faithful. They presented it more clearly. They offered more profound explanations of its meaning and nature,** bringing out into sharper light the fact that this feast shows, not only that the dead body of the Blessed Virgin Mary remained incorrupt, but that she gained a triumph out of death**, her heavenly glorification after the example of her only begotten Son, Jesus Christ-truths that the liturgical books had frequently touched upon concisely and briefly.

It is notable that he says:

However, since the liturgy of the Church does not engender the Catholic faith, but rather springs from it

The liturgies of the Byzantine Churches, particularly vespers for the feast, are quite explicit in the fact of Mary’s death. Some parts of the liturgy are quoted in the above mentioned document. Lex Orandi, lex cedendi.

To refuse to believe in Mary’s death is a significant break with the tradition of the Church.

 

[babochka]

The Church teaches that when her earthly life was over, she was assumed into Heaven, body and soul. Death is the separation of body and soul. That never happened to Mary. There was no need for her to die as we know it. She was created Immaculate and never sinned. Death would have cast a shadow on her life. Many think it pious to believe that Mary died because Jesus did. What purpose would that have served? None whatsoever! I think the moment Mary was taken into Heaven was so precious to God that NO ONE was allowed to witness it. We humans, no matter how saintly, can imagine all we want but none of us will know for sure until we get to Heaven. And the Church does NOT teach that she actually died. God Bless, Memaw

I do not base my belief in Mary’s death on some pious personal belief or my own imagination. It is based on the tradition of the Church going back to the very beginning. It is based on the teachings and beliefs of the early Church Fathers, saints such as Alphonsus Ligouri and St. John Damascus (doctor of the church) and numerous Popes. It is based on the Divine Liturgy for the Feast of the Dormition, which states “As he kept you a virgin in childbirth, thus **he has kept your body incorrupt ***in the tomb *and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb.”

While the Church did not include Mary’s death in the dogmatic declaration on the Assumption, it really has not historically been considered an open question. The Church teaches through the liturgy, and the liturgy teaches us that Mary died.

On what do you base your belief that Mary did not die?

 

[Memaw]

I do not base my belief in Mary’s death on some pious personal belief or my own imagination. It is based on the tradition of the Church going back to the very beginning. It is based on the teachings and beliefs of the early Church Fathers, saints such as Alphonsus Ligouri and St. John Damascus (doctor of the church) and numerous Popes. It is based on the Divine Liturgy for the Feast of the Dormition, which states “As he kept you a virgin in childbirth, thus **he has kept your body incorrupt **in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb.”

While the Church did not include Mary’s death in the dogmatic declaration on the Assumption, it really has not historically been considered an open question. The Church teaches through the liturgy, and the liturgy teaches us that Mary died.

On what do you base your belief that Mary did not die?

On the fact that she was created Immaculate and she never sinned so was not under the penalty of death. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree until we get to Heaven. It’s NOT an Infallible teaching of the church. All the time I grew up and learned and read about the Assumption of Our Blessed Mother, body and soul, nothing was ever taught us to even think she had died first. God Bless, Memaw

 

[babochka]

I wonder if somebody could help me find ancient references to a belief that Mary did not die. In researching this subject, I have tried to understand where this belief comes from. As an Eastern Catholic, it is something that I have never had cause to doubt, as her death is so strong in our tradition; It is taught in our liturgy and it is shown in our iconography. On the Feast of the Dormition, we venerate this icon, which shows Mary, lying in a tomb, with Jesus standing above the grave, holding her soul.
I have only learned in the last few years that there is any controversy surrounding this teaching. (I do call it a teaching of the Church, though I understand that it has not been dogmatically proclaimed. I contend that the Church does not teach error in her liturgy.)

I have been involved in a number of these discussions in the Catholic Answers Forums over the last few years and I have attempted to find the earliest evidence of teaching that Mary did not die. I have not found a single Church Father, doctor of the church or Pope that teaches that she did not die. I have not actually found anything historical. In fact, the only reference that I have been able to find is the statement that Pope Pius XII deliberately left it an open question (in spite of the fact that he referenced her death several times in the document.) My question is, who (among the saints or great theologians of the past) has taught that Mary did not die? Where are the quotes and documents? Where did this controversy come from? I know they must exist because controversy like this did not come out of nowhere. I have only seen evidence of this belief in Western art.

It is clear where the belief in her death comes from, but the origin of the belief that she did not die is less clear. Can somebody help with this?

 

[SyroMalankara]

There is no basis, it was simply theologumena advanced by the Franciscans out of piety in the 14-16th Cent.

taylormarshall.com/2013/08/did-the-virgin-mary-die.html