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babochka
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The tradition and feast of the Dormition state rather clearly that she did, in fact, die before being assumed into heaven. I think it is a bit misleading to say that they “suggest that she may have died”.
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babochka
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I just found the page you linked to. I actually had it up on my screen when I saw your post.
Still, it doesn’t answer my question. I couldn’t find on that page that it was advanced my Franciscans in the 14th-16th centuries. Regardless, where are the documents? Where are the quotes? My extensive searching has turned up nothing, which I find strange. It is interesting that Western Art almost exclusively depicts Mary as alive at her Assumption, but that is generally from the Renaissance forward, hardly evidence of ancient belief.I guess I’m looking for specifics. Who advanced this idea? Are there Popes who have taught it? Bishops? Theologians who so profoundly affected our understanding of the mysteries of the faith that the average educated layman would still know their names? Saints?
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JamalChristophr
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I think the little I learned about it was from private revelation like Mary of Agreda and Anne Catherine Emmerich.
Mary could have died, and then immediately Her Soul came back down to earth to rejoin with her incorrupt virginal body, then she was assumed “alive” body and soul into heaven.
Mary could have died, and then immediately Her Soul came back down to earth to rejoin with her incorrupt virginal body, then she was assumed “alive” body and soul into heaven.
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Randy_Carson
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Did Pope Pius XII Teach that the Virgin Mary Died? Yes He Did.
By Taylor Marshall, PhD.
taylormarshall.com/2012/08/di…at-virgin.html
Excerpt:
If you read Munificentissimus Deus, it becomes manifest that the Holy Father taught that our Immaculate Lady died an earthly death before being assumed bodily into Heaven. This belief is stated repeatedly in the text of Munificentissimus Deus. Here are some examples from Munificentissimus Deus:
Citing Pope Adrian I (ca. AD 700 - 795), His Holiness Pope Pius XII records:
“Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.”
Citing the Byzantine liturgy:
“As he kept you a virgin in childbirth, thus he has kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb.”
Citing Saint Modestus (d. AD 630), the Holy Father writes:
“As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.”
The citations employed Pope Pius XII reveal that he believed and intended to show that the Immaculate Virgin Mary did in fact undergo death prior to her glorious Assumption.
It should be stated that Mary did not die because of sin, but rather in her desire to be conformed to Christ in all things – to be the speculum justitiae, mirror of justice. Her death gave her dominion over Purgatory as prophesied in Ecclesiasticus 24 and gave her more meritorious prayers for those in the hour of death.
If you would like a detailed defense of the death of the Immaculate Virgin, see the Glories of Mary by Saint Alphonsus Ligouri, a doctor of the Church.
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Seraphim73
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Yes there was. For centuries it was taught that she died and still is taught today. If you look at very ancient churches in Italy and Europe you can still see paintings and sculptures depicted in the ancient iconographic style clearly showing a reposed Mary with the Apostles surrounding her. See examples:
Here
http://s13.postimg.org/gurjkpeiv/Pier_Maria_Pennacchi_Dormition_of_the_Virgin.jpg
And here
http://s13.postimg.org/6inta4cdz/South_portal_tympanum_Strasbourg_Cathedral.jpg
And here is a modern icon with the same content
http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server1...Theotokos__45621.1409482411.1000.1200.JPG?c=2
It wasn’t until much later that you started seeing depictions of Mary ascending into the clouds of heaven in the same way Christ’s Ascension is depicted.
http://s30.postimg.org/6b8kuouxd/show_Image.jpg
http://www.stpaulsruislipmanor.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Ascension.jpg
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Memaw
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Could have??? What would be the purpose in that?? God Bless, MemawI think the little I learned about it was from private revelation like Mary of Agreda and Anne Catherine Emmerich.
Mary could have died, and then immediately Her Soul came back down to earth to rejoin with her incorrupt virginal body, then she was assumed “alive” body and soul into heaven.
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Memaw
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Art may be beautiful but it is NOT infallible. There is no proof that the Apostles were there at the time either. They never wrote a word about it. God Bless, Memaw
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Seraphim73
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I’m afraid that’s just not the proper way to understand things. Catholicism is not a disincarnate, iconoclastic faith. The faith isn’t just a list of infallible statements. It is the life of the Church and that life is also expressed in icons and prayers.
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Memaw
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It would have been just as easy for the Pope to proclaim her “death” in the Infallible statement if he had been guided so by the Holy Spirit. I have had several knowledgeable priests tell me that the Magisterium has never taught that Mary died. God Bless. Memaw
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Seraphim73
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I’m with you. I’m simply making the point that we shouldn’t accept the basic premise of Protestantism, i.e. that the faith can only be known from studying some “infallible” writings, and simply expanding the list of sources to include papal and synodal encyclicals. If the prayers of the Church and the iconography clearly indicate she actually died there is no way to discount that.
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Memaw
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Mary never ascended into Heaven, she was assumed into Heaven. Big difference. And as for the Icon, I would like to know the story behind that. What baby is Jesus holding?? Why so many people, who are they? We don’t even know if Mary was lying down when she was assumed into Heaven. God Bless, Memaw
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SyroMalankara
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The baby is Mary as a Child, the great theology being taught is - as sung in the Syriac Morning Prayer for Sunday - “you bear Him who does bear you”. Mary bore the Son of God, who in His Divinity bears Mary and all of Creation.
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Seraphim73
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If you will notice the sculpture from a church in Italy has the same image. It is Christ holding Mary as a little child, the reverse of the Nativity when Mary held Christ in her arms. It usually brings a tear to my eye the thought is so beautiful. In the icon and other images she is surrounded by the Apostles.
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babochka
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Technically, this is the icon of her Dormition, or the death of Mary, so it shows her lying in that state. Jesus has received her soul. Some erroneously argue that the term dormition implies or teaches something other than her death because it means “falling asleep”, but “falling asleep in the Lord” is a euphemism for death, and how the death of a Christian is generally referred to in the East.
As to whether she was lying or standing or sitting when she was assumed into heaven, you’re right, we don’t know. It is a safe bed that she was prone after her death, however.
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prodromos
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As babochka has noted, the “child” Christ is holding is actually the soul of Mary.
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Memaw
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So does that mean her soul and body separated??? God Bless. Memaw
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babochka
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Yes, as death is separation of the soul from the body.
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MattofTexas
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My apologies, when I used the word “suggest” I was referring to the absolute historical reality of whatever happened, not the tradition and feast of the Dormition which is very clear that she did die first, as you said. Because this aspect of the end of the Blessed Virgin’s life was not infallibly defined I feel it is more appropriate to use terms like “suggest she may have died” than to speak as if it were definite infallible dogmatic fact.
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babochka
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Here is the story of the icon of the Dormition:
Icon of the Feast
The Icon of the Feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos shows her on her deathbed surrounded by the Apostles. Christ is standing in the center (1.) looking at His mother. He is holding a small child clothed in white representing the soul of the Virgin Mary. With His golden garments, the angels above His head, and the mandorla surrounding Him, Christ is depicted in His divine glory.
http://www.goarch.org/special/liste...n/resolveUid/8025214f7b1a381c5957bee20cd743da
1. Christ, appearing in His Glory, stands in the center of the icon cradling the soul of His Mother, the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary. The posture of the Apostles direct attention toward the Theotokos (2.). On the right Saint Peter censes the body of the Theotokos. On the left Saint Paul (3.) bows low in honor of her.
http://www.goarch.org/special/liste...n/resolveUid/b1236f8d5f2961f8072c34640faeb00b 2. The Apostles bow their heads in reverence to the Theotokos as Saint Peter (right) censes her body (detail). Together with the Apostles are several bishops (4.) and women. The bishops traditionally represented are James, the brother of the Lord, Timothy, Heirotheus, and Dionysius the Areopagite. They are shown wearing episcopal vestments. The women are members of the church in Jerusalem.
http://www.goarch.org/special/liste...n/resolveUid/d72c95655379bd1e88ce01c9516f331f http://www.goarch.org/special/liste...n/resolveUid/e949aa9c4f7af2ad38322f75c567bd8c 3. The Apostle Paul bows in honor of the Theotokos (detail).
- Also in attendance to pray for the Theotokos were several Bishops (detail). In front of the bed of the Theotokos is a candle (5.) that helps to form a central axis in the icon. Above the candle is the body of the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary. Standing over His mother is Christ holding her most pure soul. Above Christ the gates of heaven stand open, ready to receive the Mother of God.
http://www.goarch.org/special/liste...n/resolveUid/f34a212e02e7942feab26033e87751da 5. The Theotokos lies in the center of the icon surrounded by the Apostles and a candle in front of her bed (detail). This great Feast of the Church and the icon celebrates a fundamental teaching of our faith—the Resurrection of the body. In the case of the Theotokos, this has been accomplished by the divine will of God. Thus, this Feast is a feast of hope, hope in Resurrection and life eternal. Like those who gathered around the body of the Virgin Mary, we gather around our departed loved ones and commend their souls into the hands of Christ. As we remember those who have reposed in the faith before us and have passed on into the communion of the Saints, we prepare ourselves to one day be received into the new life of the age to come.
We also affirm through this Feast as we journey toward our heavenly abode that the Mother of God intercedes for us. Through Christ she has become the mother of all of the children of God, embracing us with divine love.
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babochka
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While there has never been a specifically infallible statement from the Pope or a Church council about her death, the Byzantine liturgy does teach her death explicitly**.** Papal documents teach her death. The very document that proclaims her Assumption teaches her death. I have no idea why it was not contained in the dogma itself. Perhaps it was not included because it is not seen as critical to her Assumption and dogma should be proclaimed as narrowly as possible. Perhaps in the future the Church will see fit to clear up this matter in an absolutely incontrovertible way. Truth exists whether it has been proclaimed by a council or Pope; it did not take the Council of Trent to make Transubstantiation the truth.
The Church teaches in many ways. One of them is through sacred liturgy. If the Byzantine Divine Liturgy taught error as truth in this matter, don’t you think the church would have long ago intervened and corrected the matter?
We recently celebrated the Feast of the Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple, know as the Presentation of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the West. This is an ancient feast; in the East, it is one of our 12 Great Feasts, in the West it is a mandatory memorial This is an event that does not occur in scripture and has never been proclaimed by a council or in an infallible statement of the Pope. Do you believe that it could possibly be that it never occurred? Would the Church, in her liturgy, promote such a fraud?
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