Assumption Blessed Virgin Mother Mary

[babochka]

Art may be beautiful but it is NOT infallible. There is no proof that the Apostles were there at the time either. They never wrote a word about it. God Bless, Memaw

No, but iconography does reflect the faith of the Church. It has been called “theology in color”. It is also useful to see how the Dormition and Assumption of our Lady has been understood throughout Christian history. The art shows us that the belief in her death is the more ancient understanding and that the belief that she did not die is a much more modern innovation of belief.

 

[Memaw]

While there has never been a specifically infallible statement from the Pope or a Church council about her death, the Byzantine liturgy does teach her death explicitly**.** Papal documents teach her death. The very document that proclaims her Assumption teaches her death. I have no idea why it was not contained in the dogma itself. Perhaps it was not included because it is not seen as critical to her Assumption and dogma should be proclaimed as narrowly as possible. Perhaps in the future the Church will see fit to clear up this matter in an absolutely incontrovertible way. Truth exists whether it has been proclaimed by a council or Pope; it did not take the Council of Trent to make Transubstantiation the truth.

The Church teaches in many ways. One of them is through sacred liturgy. If the Byzantine Divine Liturgy taught error as truth in this matter, don’t you think the church would have long ago intervened and corrected the matter?

We recently celebrated the Feast of the Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple, know as the Presentation of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the West. This is an ancient feast; in the East, it is one of our 12 Great Feasts, in the West it is a mandatory memorial This is an event that does not occur in scripture and has never been proclaimed by a council or in an infallible statement of the Pope. Do you believe that it could possibly be that it never occurred? Would the Church, in her liturgy, promote such a fraud?

I will continue to believe that the very moment of Our Lady leaving this earthly life is between her and Her God. God Bless, Memaw

 

[BklynTony]

Catholic dogma does not specify either position as correct. However, the tradition of the Blessed Virgin dying before her assumption is very strong.

I don’t feel that impressed with the theological arguments for her dying and would like to think of her passing into heaven without death, like Elijah or Enoch, but the evidence from tradition is strong.

I am in agreement with your belief that Mary was assumed body and soul without a physical death…I do not believe the Enoch and Elijah story. No one entered Heaven before Christ suffered , Died, Rose and Ascended into Heaven. Just why do people believe this in the Old Testament I do not know. And I believe the bible to be the word of God, but not every word is to be taken literally ,but the spiritual message is God’s word…Look for the Message, not just the story in the OT.
God Bless

 

[GaryTaylor]

Its a believed teaching that Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.). Its not infallible and for good reason as we see above. The conversation is in regards to body and soul as opposed to soul then body which obviously continues just as we see on this thread.

In other words to argue infallibility in regards to Mary suffering a temporal death is simply not true as of yet, as its a point further being discussed.

 

[GaryTaylor]

A further thought is that the understanding and teaching is that Mary is believed to have desired to die as “we” understand death in relation to sin, as die as we understand Her Son doing. Which is consistent with tradition but doesn’t solve the defined issues with clarity mentioned briefly above.

Further Mary clearly states in Luke - For nothing will be impossible with God." And Mary said, “Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

We must come to see this in the Fathers plan from all eternity and in accordance and understanding of how the entire Church views Mary today.

Still further in Luke 22, “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

And further Luke 1 , And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.…

And as mentioned on others post the continuity of Elijah and Enoch.

Nevertheless what I am probably terribly stating is this rather funnels and focuses the point I believe?

 

[thistle]

How many threads are there already on this topic.

The Church does not teach Mary died or did not die first. Catholics are free to believe either way and both sides should respect the others position.

 

[Ubenedictus]

As did Pope Pius XII, who proclaimed the dogma. In the document in which the dogma is proclaimed, he refers to her death several times and never brings up any belief contrary to a belief in her death.

Here is one example:

It is notable that he says:

The liturgies of the Byzantine Churches, particularly vespers for the feast, are quite explicit in the fact of Mary’s death. Some parts of the liturgy are quoted in the above mentioned document. Lex Orandi, lex cedendi.

To refuse to believe in Mary’s death is a significant break with the tradition of the Church.

I think one this issue you may be wrong, the belief tha mary died seems to have picked up pace in the 7th century… I remember participating in a discussion on the assumption on the eastern subforum and there were father who expressed uncertainty as to whether or not mary died.

Put simply I believe the question has been open for a very long time.

 

[Randy_Carson]

How many threads are there already on this topic.

The Church does not teach Mary died or did not die first. Catholics are free to believe either way and both sides should respect the others position.

Post #24.

 

[babochka]

I think one this issue you may be wrong, the belief tha mary died seems to have picked up pace in the 7th century… I remember participating in a discussion on the assumption on the eastern subforum and there were father who expressed uncertainty as to whether or not mary died.

Put simply I believe the question has been open for a very long time.

I’m open to the possibility that I could be wrong. (I assume you are refering to my statement that a belief that she did not die is a significant break with the tradition of the Church.) Can you substantiate the statement that the belief seems to have been in existence in the 7th century? In post #19, I asked this question, but I have not received an answer.

I wonder if somebody could help me find ancient references to a belief that Mary did not die. In researching this subject, I have tried to understand where this belief comes from. As an Eastern Catholic, it is something that I have never had cause to doubt, as her death is so strong in our tradition; It is taught in our liturgy and it is shown in our iconography. On the Feast of the Dormition, we venerate this icon, which shows Mary, lying in a tomb, with Jesus standing above the grave, holding her soul.
I have only learned in the last few years that there is any controversy surrounding this teaching. (I do call it a teaching of the Church, though I understand that it has not been dogmatically proclaimed. I contend that the Church does not teach error in her liturgy.)

I have been involved in a number of these discussions in the Catholic Answers Forums over the last few years and I have attempted to find the earliest evidence of teaching that Mary did not die. I have not found a single Church Father, doctor of the church or Pope that teaches that she did not die. I have not actually found anything historical. In fact, the only reference that I have been able to find is the statement that Pope Pius XII deliberately left it an open question (in spite of the fact that he referenced her death several times in the document.) My question is, who (among the saints or great theologians of the past) has taught that Mary did not die? Where are the quotes and documents? Where did this controversy come from? I know they must exist because controversy like this did not come out of nowhere. I have only seen evidence of this belief in Western art.

It is clear where the belief in her death comes from, but the origin of the belief that she did not die is less clear. Can somebody help with this?

Can you help me with documentation to support your understanding that this is an ancient position?

 

[wynd]

How many threads are there already on this topic.

The Church does not teach Mary died or did not die first. Catholics are free to believe either way and both sides should respect the others position.

See all the posts in this thread by Randy, babochka, etc. Yes the Church DOES teach it, just not infallibly. However, we are to give our assent to ALL Church teachings whether infallible or not.

 

[babochka]

See all the posts in this thread by Randy, babochka, etc. Yes the Church DOES teach it, just not infallibly. However, we are to give our assent to ALL Church teachings whether infallible or not.

I think that this is the primary point of contention in this thread. Some believe that the only church teachings that count are those that have been defined by a council or solemnly proclaimed by a Pope. This discounts the idea that liturgy or even catechisms can proclaim the teachings of the Church, unless such teachings have also been solemnly defined.