Assumption of Elijah versus the Theotokos

[smad0142]

Why was St. Elijah spared death and assumed directly into Heaven and the Blessed Virgin wasn’t? Any reasons given among the Fathers of the Church, etc.? Thanks!!

 

[Skeptic92]

Why was St. Elijah spared death and assumed directly into Heaven and the Blessed Virgin wasn’t? Any reasons given among the Fathers of the Church, etc.? Thanks!!

The Holy Theotokos may not have suffered an early death, we do not know exactly when Our Blessed Lady when assumed into Heaven whether it was before or after natural death. That is a matter of your own personal faith, and not defined by the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary.

(Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the Eastern Orthodox position is that the Theotokos did not suffer an earthly death and was assumed alive to Heaven?)

 

[SonCatcher]

I don’t think Elijah was spared death. God just chose a different way for him to die, possibly to prevent an Elijah-worshiping cult from springing up.

Once he died, however, Elijah could only enter Sheol until Jesus opened the gates of Heaven.

 

[cc42]

Christ waa not spared death. This is why Blessed John Paul II does not think Mary was either.

 

[Nine_Two]

(Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the Eastern Orthodox position is that the Theotokos did not suffer an earthly death and was assumed alive to Heaven?)

No. We believe she died an earthly death.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I have seen speculation that Elijah will be one of the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3-12

3 And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4* These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth. 5* And if any one would harm them, fire pours out from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed. 6* They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. 7* And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them, 8* and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically * called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. 9 For three days and a half men from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, 10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. 11* But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12* Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up hither!” And in the sight of their foes they went up to heaven in a cloud.

so has yet to die. It is speculated that Enoch, who didn’t die either, may be the other witness.

24* Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Genesis 5:24

I don’t think this is official teaching, but haven’t seen it condemned either.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Traditionally it’s been believed (in the West, at least) that Elijah’s death was merely put off, and that he will die at some future date. I find the theory of a literal death as one of the Two Witnesses implausible, since if one witness is literally the man Elijah then the other would clearly be Moses, who did die (though, interesting, it has been believed that he was later resurrected and assumed into heaven). That Moses should have to die twice does not seem at all likely.

Another alternative is that Elijah, like the just who will be alive at the time of the Second Coming, will have his soul momentarily separate from his body just prior to glorification- technically a death and resurrection, so that every human person will have received his or her body back from God.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Holy Theotokos may not have suffered an early death, we do not know exactly when Our Blessed Lady when assumed into Heaven whether it was before or after natural death. That is a matter of your own personal faith, and not defined by the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary.

(Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the Eastern Orthodox position is that the Theotokos did not suffer an earthly death and was assumed alive to Heaven?)

The Apostolic Constitution that declared the Assumption as dogma has cited teachings that Mary did in fact tasted death.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Christ conquered death by his own death. It is important to believe that Mary did die prior to her Assumption as a testament of Christ’s own victory over death. That when Mary die, she did not fall into the hands of death but passed into eternal life.

 

[smad0142]

Traditionally it’s been believed (in the West, at least) that Elijah’s death was merely put off, and that he will die at some future date. I find the theory of a literal death as one of the Two Witnesses implausible, since if one witness is literally the man Elijah then the other would clearly be Moses, who did die (though, interesting, it has been believed that he was later resurrected and assumed into heaven). That Moses should have to die twice does not seem at all likely.

Another alternative is that Elijah**, like the just who will be alive at the time of the Second Coming, will have his soul momentarily separate from his body just prior to glorification- technically a death and resurrection,** so that every human person will have received his or her body back from God.

Care to elaborate on both of these?

 

[SonCatcher]

Traditionally it’s been believed (in the West, at least) that Elijah’s death was merely put off, and that he will die at some future date. I find the theory of a literal death as one of the Two Witnesses implausible, since if one witness is literally the man Elijah then the other would clearly be Moses, who did die (though, interesting, it has been believed that he was later resurrected and assumed into heaven). That Moses should have to die twice does not seem at all likely.

Another alternative is that Elijah, like the just who will be alive at the time of the Second Coming, will have his soul momentarily separate from his body just prior to glorification- technically a death and resurrection, so that every human person will have received his or her body back from God.

Actually, I think those were speculations and were not necessarily traditional for the whole Western Church. Some Protestants particularly ran with the first speculation when they adopted the Rapture theory.

 

[Madaglan]

It would be strange to think Mary died after her assumption into heaven. Death has no place in heaven.

 

[SonCatcher]

It would be strange to think Mary died after her assumption into heaven. Death has no place in heaven.

Of course no one thinks that Mary died after her assumption. There is a Western speculation, however, that Mary might have been assumed without having tasted death, similar to those who are still living on the Last Day:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 15:52[/BIBLEDRB]

“We (the living) shall be changed” (to be incorruptible - possibly without tasting death)

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

There is a Western speculation, however, that Mary might have been assumed without having tasted death, similar to those who are still living on the Last Day:

That’s what I believe, actually. I don’t know why, but I just do. Am I the exception here?

 

[SonCatcher]

That’s what I believe, actually. I don’t know why, but I just do. Am I the exception here?

I don’t think so, but you’ll probably find more complete discussion on this particular speculation in the Traditional Catholicism forum since Eastern Catholics teach that Mary did “fall asleep” (the Assumption is remembered as Dormition in the East. Dormition = “falling asleep”, a common euphemism for dying).

For myself, since the Latin Church has no official position, neither do I.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I don’t think so, but you’ll probably find more complete discussion on this particular speculation in the Traditional Catholicism forum since Eastern Catholics teach that Mary did “fall asleep” (the Assumption is remembered as Dormition in the East. Dormition = “falling asleep”, a common euphemism for dying).

For myself, since the Latin Church has no official position, neither do I.

The Latin Church has an official position. Again, here is the Apostolic Constitution:

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html

And here is something to help you know what to look at:

ercf.blogspot.ca/2012/01/immaculate-misconception.html

 

[Nine_Two]

The Latin Church has an official position. Again, here is the Apostolic Constitution:

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html

And here is something to help you know what to look at:

ercf.blogspot.ca/2012/01/immaculate-misconception.html

I think this is one of the issues with dogmatizing.

Before the Assumption was made dogma in the West, the Orthodox and Catholics had identical beliefs on it. As soon as one part is declared dogma, people either stop believing the other part, or otherwise question it, where no one would have before.