Assumption of Mary, to

[nr1985]

Dear all;

I’m having a little trouble with the Assumption teaching. I completely accept the Church teaching that this happened, and why.

What I’m curious about, is where Mary, and Jesus for that matter, went.

We think of heaven as a place, but often are told to re-think this through, and establish that it isn’t a kingdom on top of the clouds; moreover it is where we will have the beatific vision.

What I can’t get to grips with, is how two physical bodies are able to reside in heaven. They both ‘went’ somewhere; i.e. to a physical place.

Is there any church teaching on what happened to Mary after her assumption? Clearly she has been witnessed at Lourdes and Fatima since, and we know that Jesus will have the same physical body bearing his wounds for all eternity.

I just can’t see how physical bodies are able to reside in heaven. I can’t imagine they float around!

 

[Trisceptorc]

I’m afraid I don’t have much to offer on the subject but the following passage from the Bible:

Matthew 17:1-3 (Same story in Mark 9:2-4 and Luke 9:28-30)
“(1) After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. (2) There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. (3) Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.”

Both Moses and Elijah are men who were likewise taken by God. Evidently, the physical bodies were transfigured into spiritual ones. Since God makes the rules, I guess He has no problem just replacing a physical body with a spiritual one.

Also interesting is when Jesus returned after the crucifixion to visit his disciples. He ate and drank with them, which to me implies having a physical body. Maybe he can switch between the two bodies at will? Once again:

 

[nr1985]

Excellent point Trisceptorc. Thanks for reminding me of those verses!

It’s a good point. Maybe when entering heaven, the body was transformed/transfigured. As Jesus ascended into heaven, I think there was a bright light, etc?

Maybe Mary’s assumption, although unseen, happened quietly in the night.

I have an image of her shining, and being like the star on the night of Jesus’ birth. After all, Mary leads us to her son…

 

[hansard]

It’s not a body like you currently have. When Jesus walked from the tomb, there was something markedly different about him–(I’m going from memory here, and am happy to be corrected on any of what follows): he was unrecognisable to some people who should have known him on sight; he could enter a room without opening the door; his wounds, which would have been crippling and life-threatening if it was just the “old” Jesus, no longer mattered, even though they were visible and tangible (i.e. Thomas touching them).
I imagine he must have had an angelic appearance.

This is the “body” that exists in Heaven. It’s not flesh and blood anymore; it can be physical or spiritual at will; it is incorruptible; it does not need physical sustenance. None of those things apply to an earthly body.

So, you (like me recently) will have to completely discard the notion that it’s an earthly body in heaven. It shouldn’t even be called a “body”–the expression “assumed body and soul into heaven” is misleading, as it is the same body in appearance only. It’s a fore-runner of the new body (the so-called “glorified body”) the faithful will have after the resurrection.

 

[nr1985]

That clarifies a lot, hansard, thank you!

I have struggled with the idea of the general resurrection (a lot!) and that does help. Most of the talking about the GR hints that our bodies will literally rise out of the grave, or re-compose themselves from ashes and that we’ll all be 30-something years old… these are general things I have heard but I’d like to find a definitive teaching or doctrine on this.

It makes more sense in the way you have described it, and I’m certain that Jesus was showing us his glorified body in a way that we could see ourselves some day- that being the purpose of the resurrection.

Is there anything that can be said about how we will exist before the resurrection of the body?
I.e. how we will exist in heaven? We see ‘ghosts’ etc, and that is another area of discussion (souls in purgatory, etc) but will we have any faculties in heaven; vision, speech, hearing?
Will we haver our ‘form’ in order to be recognised by people we knew?

 

[Dorothy]

It’s not a body like you currently have. When Jesus walked from the tomb, there was something markedly different about him–(I’m going from memory here, and am happy to be corrected on any of what follows): he was unrecognisable to some people who should have known him on sight; he could enter a room without opening the door; his wounds, which would have been crippling and life-threatening if it was just the “old” Jesus, no longer mattered, even though they were visible and tangible (i.e. Thomas touching them).
I imagine he must have had an angelic appearance.

This is the “body” that exists in Heaven. It’s not flesh and blood anymore; it can be physical or spiritual at will; it is incorruptible; it does not need physical sustenance. None of those things apply to an earthly body.

So, you (like me recently) will have to completely discard the notion that it’s an earthly body in heaven. It shouldn’t even be called a “body”–the expression “assumed body and soul into heaven” is misleading, as it is the same body in appearance only. It’s a fore-runner of the new body (the so-called “glorified body”) the faithful will have after the resurrection.

I like what you wrote. And, then I am reminded that Jesus ate fish from a charcoal fire with the apostles after his resurrection. Am I remembering correctly?

There is a lot we do not understand,…do we have to? I marvel at the mysteries of God.

 

[Memaw]

That clarifies a lot, hansard, thank you!

I have struggled with the idea of the general resurrection (a lot!) and that does help. Most of the talking about the GR hints that our bodies will literally rise out of the grave, or re-compose themselves from ashes and that we’ll all be 30-something years old… these are general things I have heard but I’d like to find a definitive teaching or doctrine on this.

It makes more sense in the way you have described it, and I’m certain that Jesus was showing us his glorified body in a way that we could see ourselves some day- that being the purpose of the resurrection.

Is there anything that can be said about how we will exist before the resurrection of the body?
I.e. how we will exist in heaven? We see ‘ghosts’ etc, and that is another area of discussion (souls in purgatory, etc) but will we have any faculties in heaven; vision, speech, hearing?
Will we haver our ‘form’ in order to be recognised by people we knew?

I think maybe you worry to much about these things and should just trust God with it all as HE knows what HE is doing even if we don’t have all the answers. It’s enough to know we will be with Him for all Eternity and also our loved ones that are there too. St. Paul said, Eye has not seen, ear has not heard what God has in store for us. It hasn’t even entered in the mind of man! So even with all your questions, there is more to Heaven than we can even imagine. Trust God, God Bless, Memaw

 

[nr1985]

Thanks Memaw. I agree with you. Although I think it is important to investigate. The reason I do this isn’t mistrust, but because the deeper I go, I find the most interesting, amazing things about the faith and the Church.

It’s true, we should draw some lines, however.

God Bless.

 

[Richard_White]

“For nothing will be impossible for God” (Luke 1:37).

 

[Memaw]

Thanks Memaw. I agree with you. Although I think it is important to investigate. The reason I do this isn’t mistrust, but because the deeper I go, I find the most interesting, amazing things about the faith and the Church.

It’s true, we should draw some lines, however.

God Bless.

That’s great as long as we keep a balance. I remember when I was young and my Mom died, I asked “WHY” sooo many times. Why her, why now, why when we needed her so much. But I got no answer, at least not that I could tell at the time. My Uncle, a priest, advised me to trust God and stay close to Our Blessed Mother and I would find peace, I did and that helped me sooo much. I guess I learned that trust brings peace. It may not change the situation but it helps ease the pain. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Trisceptorc]

and that we’ll all be 30-something years old… these are general things I have heard but I’d like to find a definitive teaching or doctrine on this.

As you look through the Bible and read about when angels appear to people, they all look like young men. The only exception I can think of is in I Samuel 28, when King Saul talks to a medium in order to talk to the recently deceased prophet Samuel. Given that Saul was talking to a medium, I think it’s reasonable to assume that Saul and the medium were probably talking to an unclean spirit of some sort.

 

[TimothyH]

It’s not a body like you currently have. When Jesus walked from the tomb, there was something markedly different about him–(I’m going from memory here, and am happy to be corrected on any of what follows): he was unrecognisable to some people who should have known him on sight; he could enter a room without opening the door; his wounds, which would have been crippling and life-threatening if it was just the “old” Jesus, no longer mattered, even though they were visible and tangible (i.e. Thomas touching them).
I imagine he must have had an angelic appearance.

This is the “body” that exists in Heaven. It’s not flesh and blood anymore; it can be physical or spiritual at will; it is incorruptible; it does not need physical sustenance. None of those things apply to an earthly body.

So, you (like me recently) will have to completely discard the notion that it’s an earthly body in heaven. It shouldn’t even be called a “body”–the expression “assumed body and soul into heaven” is misleading, as it is the same body in appearance only. It’s a fore-runner of the new body (the so-called “glorified body”) the faithful will have after the resurrection.

This is right. Look at the sacramental presence of Jesus now.

He is able to exist simultaneously in multiple tabernacles all over the world - the year 847 in a tabernacle in France and the year 2026 in a tabernacle in Japan - his presence in the physical world transcends time and space.

Jesus walked through the locked door of the upper room where the disciples were for fear of the Jews. He appeared and disappeared to the disciples on the road to Emmaus. Jesus is above the laws of physics, gravity, time, etc.

He hinted at this while he was alive on earth - walking on water and disappearing from the midst of the people who wanted to stone him.

-Tim-