Assumption of Mary - tough teaching

[JB_Brother_4446]

How does logic prove the resurrection?

In its primary context, David is expressing his confidence that God will not abandon his soul in Sheol, but shall resurrect him. Mary was resurrected in the most perfect way after her Son.

blessedaboveallwomen.co/2016/05/23/my-soul-glorifies-the-lord/

*PAX *
:heaven:

Use Google. Search up CAF. I posted a thread on that not too long ago.

The primary fufillment of the passage was Jesus. David died and his body became corrupted but since he was a prophet, he forsaw what would happen to Jesus.

 

[Good_Fella]

Use Google. Search up CAF. I posted a thread on that not too long ago.

The primary fufillment of the passage was Jesus. David died and his body became corrupted but since he was a prophet, he forsaw what would happen to Jesus.

Was David dead when he wrote the Psalm?

PAX
:heaven:

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Was David dead when he wrote the Psalm?

PAX
:heaven:

Really? Did you read what I said? So when Peter said exactly what I’m saying he said David wrote the Psalm when he died? Peter said that under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Good_Fella]

Really? Did you read what I said? So when Peter said exactly what I’m saying he said David wrote the Psalm when he died? Peter said that under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

The Psalm is a prayer of David pronounced in the person of Christ. What he writes concerns himself as God’s anointed one. What he means by saying God will not let His holy one see corruption is that God will not let his soul go down to the pit, or Sheol, but will rather take it to be with Him in heaven. The Jews in his time were beginning to believe that only the soul ascended to heaven to be with God in His presence, while the body remained in the earth forever. Jewish belief in the resurrection arose centuries later in the Maccabean period among the Hellenistic Jews outside of Palestine in the 2nd century B.C. And even then, not all Jews believed in it. So, the prayer is prophetic, but it’s unlikely David knew that he was speaking of Jesus. Even if he knew he was speaking of the Messiah, he would be thinking in terms of Jewish belief at the time. The apostles saw that the Psalm was fulfilled in Christ, having been enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

The Psalm is a prayer of David pronounced in the person of Christ. What he writes concerns himself as God’s anointed one. What he means by saying God will not let His holy one see corruption is that God will not let his soul go down to the pit, or Sheol, but will rather take it to be with Him in heaven. The Jews in his time were beginning to believe that only the soul ascended to heaven to be with God in His presence, while the body remained in the earth forever. Jewish belief in the resurrection arose centuries later in the Maccabean period among the Hellenistic Jews outside of Palestine in the 2nd century B.C. And even then, not all Jews believed in it. So, the prayer is prophetic, but it’s unlikely David knew that he was speaking of Jesus. Even if he knew he was speaking of the Messiah, he would be thinking in terms of Jewish belief at the time. The apostles saw that the Psalm was fulfilled in Christ, having been enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

PAX
:heaven:

David was a prophet.

Acts 2:29-32

29Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. **30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. **32God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Heaven and sky are the same word in the old languages in the O.T., and we see that they are depictions of both heaven as the transcendent dwelling-place of God and the place that the faithful may ascend to.

My point is the heaven Mary went to is the real one, at the very most Enoch and Elijah went to Abraham’s bosom or their “heaven” is a euphemism for “we dont know” and they were especially holy.

Only Mary was Assumed.

 

[Vico]

My point is the heaven Mary went to is the real one, at the very most Enoch and Elijah went to Abraham’s bosom or their “heaven” is a euphemism for “we dont know” and they were especially holy.

Only Mary was Assumed.

We know that Enoch and Elijah are assured of heaven. “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Roman Catechism I. 6. 3.

 

[Good_Fella]

David was a prophet.

Acts 2:29-32

29Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. **30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. **32God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.

David spoke about the resurrection of Christ, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that he understood the fuller meaning of what he was saying about himself. When God speaks through his prophets (i.e., Isaiah 7:14), there is a deeper meaning intended by God which isn’t intended by the human author (sensus plenior). When Luke wrote his gospel, he didn’t intend to say that Mary was immaculately conceived without the stain of original sin (1:28), but this is the deeper meaning intended by God.

This is what the Hebrew Bible reads: כִּי, לֹא-תַעֲזֹב נַפְשִׁי לִשְׁאוֹל; לֹא-תִתֵּן חֲסִידְךָ, לִרְאוֹת שָׁחַת.

*For Thou wilt not abandon my soul to the nether-world; neither wilt Thou suffer Thy godly one to see the *pit. - Psalm 16:10

In ancient Jewish belief in David’s time, the pit was the place in Hades/Sheol where wicked people go. It’s synonymous with the Christian concept of Hell. So what David intends to say about himself isn’t that God will not allow his body or that of the Messiah to decay in the grave. Verse 10 is part of a wider passage (vv.7-11), and so it should be read within the context of this passage. It’s primary fulfillment concerns David, who is speaking about himself in his relationship with God. The secondary fulfillment concerns Christ and is the underlying deeper meaning intended by God through the voice of his prophet. Peter is telling the crowd just that: There is a deeper meaning to what the Jews have understood David to mean which is fully realized in Christ.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[Blue_Horizon]

We know that Enoch and Elijah are assured of heaven. “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Roman Catechism I. 6. 3.

Vico you have gone off on a tangent, we all know this.
The simple point is that Enoch and Elija in no way were assumed into heaven body and soul as Mary was.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

David spoke about the resurrection of Christ, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that he understood the fuller meaning of what he was saying about himself. When God speaks through his prophets (i.e., Isaiah 7:14), there is a deeper meaning intended by God which isn’t intended by the human author (sensus plenior). When Luke wrote his gospel, he didn’t intend to say that Mary was immaculately conceived without the stain of original sin (1:28), but this is the deeper meaning intended by God.

This is what the Hebrew Bible reads: כִּי, לֹא-תַעֲזֹב נַפְשִׁי לִשְׁאוֹל; לֹא-תִתֵּן חֲסִידְךָ, לִרְאוֹת שָׁחַת.

*For Thou wilt not abandon my soul to the nether-world; neither wilt Thou suffer Thy godly one to see the *pit. - Psalm 16:10

In ancient Jewish belief in David’s time, the pit was the place in Hades/Sheol where wicked people go. It’s synonymous with the Christian concept of Hell. So what David intends to say about himself isn’t that God will not allow his body or that of the Messiah to decay in the grave. Verse 10 is part of a wider passage (vv.7-11), and so it should be read within the context of this passage. It’s primary fulfillment concerns David, who is speaking about himself in his relationship with God. The secondary fulfillment concerns Christ and is the underlying deeper meaning intended by God through the voice of his prophet. Peter is telling the crowd just that: There is a deeper meaning to what the Jews have understood David to mean which is fully realized in Christ.

PAX
:heaven:

I do not believe it isaccurate to treat Sheol Hades and Christian Hell as synonomous in meaning.
Can you quote sources for believing it is the abode of the wicked…as opposed to an abode for those inheriting mortality which is not quite the same thing.

 

[Vico]

Vico you have gone off on a tangent, we all know this.
The simple point is that Enoch and Elija in no way were assumed into heaven body and soul as Mary was.

I am not saying that they were.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I am not saying that they were.

Great, we are both agreed and back on point .

 

[The_Serpent]

Various Patristic sources for the Assumption or Dormition of Mary can be found in this book.

svspress.com/on-the-dormition-of-mary-early-patristic-homilies/

 

[Vico]

Great, we are both agreed and back on point .

This is how I answered you in post 34 and that was my point, which was not an answer to the the thread question, nor your comment about euphemism, by the way.

Heaven and sky are the same word in the old languages in the O.T., and we see that they are depictions of both heaven as the transcendent dwelling-place of God and the place that the faithful may ascend to.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

This is how I answered you in post 34 and that was my point, which was not an answer to the the thread question, nor your comment about euphemism, by the way.

Heaven and sky are the same word in the old languages in the O.T., and we see that they are depictions of both heaven as the transcendent dwelling-place of God and the place that the faithful may ascend to.

Yes roses are red too by the way .

 

[Vico]

Yes roses are red too by the way .

It seems that you are not interested in what St. John Paul II said about it, as posted.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

It seems that you are not interested in what St. John Paul II said about it, as posted.

Vico why do you seem obsessed with always having the last word?
Let’s do a test…

 

[Vico]

Vico why do you seem obsessed with always having the last word?
Let’s do a test…

Please, you have the last word, by answering my question.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Horizon
Vico why do you seem obsessed with always having the last word?
Let’s do a test…

Bingo

 

[Good_Fella]

I do not believe it is accurate to treat Sheol Hades and Christian Hell as synonomous in meaning.

Sorry for the delay, but I’m on pilgrimage in Fatima. The uttermost region in Sheol is the pit, where the wicked are consigned after they have been judged.

Can you quote sources for believing it is the abode of the wicked…as opposed to an abode for those inheriting mortality which is not quite the same thing.

See page 149 in the following source. But I’m just recalling what I’ve read elsewhere years ago. The pit can also mean “grave”, and so David might be asking God to protect him from his murderous enemies.

jbq.jewishbible.org/assets/Uploads/433/jbq_433_bargrave.pdf

PAX
:heaven: