Assumption of Our Lady

  • Thread starter Thread starter Wawe
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Wawe,

Welcome to CAF!! 🙂

You’ll probably get a quicker reply to this question if you post it in the Apologetics forum.
 
Wawe said:
Peace and blessings!

I was reading some forums on The Bereans www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?p=285593#post285593

When I saw that there a thread about the assumption and, at the very end, they directed the readers to a blog spot of Mr. James Swan entitled: Assumption About the Assumption, In Action.

beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/05/assumption-about-assumption-in-action.html

Can you help me on this?

Thanks a lot everybody and God bless!
Click to expand...
Hi

Sorry, at least I can’t help you, as to me Mary did not assume to skies. After the event of crucifixion, in which Jesus escaped gettin killed on Cross, though he was put on Cross but he was delivered near-dead from it.

Form Galilee, Jesus alongwith Mary went in search of Lost Tribes of Israel, as prophesised by him, they both Jesus and Mother visited India and neighgouring countries where they were respected. Jesus died in Kashmir, in India, if one likes one could visit his tomb there. Mary according to some died in Murree a hilly resort near Islamabad capital of Pakistan.

So there is no question of assumption, to me. You are welcome to differ with me. I love Jesus and Mary.

Thanks
 
Wawe said:
Peace and blessings!

I was reading some forums on The Bereans www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?p=285593#post285593

When I saw that there a thread about the assumption and, at the very end, they directed the readers to a blog spot of Mr. James Swan entitled: Assumption About the Assumption, In Action.

beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/05/assumption-about-assumption-in-action.html

Can you help me on this?

Thanks a lot everybody and God bless!
Click to expand...
While the author decries making assumptions, he makes plenty of his own. And he certainly doesn’t tell his readers anything that might help the Catholic cause. He only gives as much information as he needs to make it appear that the Catholic teaching is wrong, and then puts his own spin on the “evidence.” IOW, he presents a biased look at the subject and then declares victory. Hardly convincing.

Here is an article on the Assumption of Mary that is factual and deals with early Church teaching on the topic.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

Sorry, at least I can’t help you, as to me Mary did not assume to skies. After the event of crucifixion, in which Jesus escaped gettin killed on Cross, though he was put on Cross but he was delivered near-dead from it.

Form Galilee, Jesus alongwith Mary went in search of Lost Tribes of Israel, as prophesised by him, they both Jesus and Mother visited India and neighgouring countries where they were respected. Jesus died in Kashmir, in India, if one likes one could visit his tomb there. Mary according to some died in Murree a hilly resort near Islamabad capital of Pakistan.

So there is no question of assumption, to me. You are welcome to differ with me. I love Jesus and Mary.

Thanks
Click to expand...
Paarsurrey , do you believe in the
assumption of Elijah and Enoh ?
 
Della said:
While the author decries making assumptions, he makes plenty of his own. And he certainly doesn’t tell his readers anything that might help the Catholic cause. He only gives as much information as he needs to make it appear that the Catholic teaching is wrong, and then puts his own spin on the “evidence.” IOW, he presents a biased look at the subject and then declares victory. Hardly convincing…
Click to expand...
Yeah that guy is really tricky. He actually did like 5 detailed blog entries on this topic- One would think he could have twisted the facts into one nice blog entry instead of 5.

Regards,

James
Beggars All: Reformation and Apologetics
 
Originally Posted by** Athanasiy **
Paarsurrey , do you believe in the assumption of Elijah and Enoh ?
Click to expand...
**Joe Kelley [/quote said:
;2544197]Note his signature line. If it isn’t in the Koran it didn’t happen.

Hi

With this physical mortal body; none had any assumption/ascention to skies, neither Elijah nor Enoh nor Jesus nor Mary nor Muhammad. All died here on this earth and since they were pious people, GodAllahYHWH placed them in heaven under His constant love.

Thanks

The ultimate truth about Jesus is:
(Firstly), JesusYeshuaIssa did not leave anything revealed on him from GodAllahYHWH in the form of written stone tablets as was in case of Moses, (Secondly) or anything written by JesusYeshuaIssa himself when he left from Galilee, after the incident of Crucifixion, alongwith his mother Mary in search of the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel, he died natural and peaceful death in Kashmir, India.
Jesus left nothing behind authenticated by him, in possession of the Church.
We do respect the NTGospels which (Thirdly) have account of Jesus life, but it does not have much utility, more value than a book of history subject to scrutiny, internal as well as external, for each event for truth on merit.
Click to expand...
 
thank you for the reminder:

wooh hooh!

Solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary Vigil
  • August 15th. 👍
 
Text from ANF, vol. 8.)The Account of St. John the Theologian of the Dormition of the Holy Mother of God

And after all these wonderful things had come to pass through the mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary the mother of the Lord, while we the apostles were with her in Jerusalem, the Holy Spirit said to us: You know that on the Lord’s day the good news was brought to the Virgin Mary by the archangel Gabriel; and on the Lord’s day the Saviour was born in Bethlehem; and on the Lord’s day the children of Jerusalem came forth with palm branches to meet him, saying, Hosanna in the highest, blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord; and on the Lord’s day He rose from the dead; and on the Lord’s day He will come to judge the living and the dead; and on the Lord’s day He will come out of heaven, to the glory and honour of the departure of the holy glorious virgin who brought Him forth. And while we were all praying, there appeared innumerable multitudes of angels, and the Lord mounted upon cherubim in great power; and, behold, a stream of light coming to the holy virgin, because of the presence of her only-begotten Son, and all the powers of the heavens fell down and adored Him. And the Lord, speaking to His mother, said: Mary. And she answered and said: Here am I, Lord. And the Lord said to her: Grieve not, but let thy heart rejoice and be glad; for thou hast found grace to behold the glory given to me by my Father. And the holy mother of God looked up, and saw in Him a glory which it is impossible for the mouth of man to speak of, or to apprehend. And the Lord remained beside her, saying: Behold, from the present time thy precious body will be transferred to paradise, and thy holy soul to the heavens to the treasures of my Father in exceeding brightness, where there is peace and joy of the holy angels,-and other things besides…And with the departure of her blameless soul the place was filled with perfume and ineffable light; and, behold, a voice out of the heaven was heard, saying: Blessed art thou among women. And Peter, and I John, and Paul, and Thomas, ran and wrapped up her precious feet for the consecration; …And at this miracle which had come to pass all the people of the Jews who beheld it cried out: Verily, He that was brought forth by thee is the true God, O mother of God, ever-virgin Mary. And Jephonias himself, when Peter ordered him, that the wonderful things of God might be showed forth, stood up behind the couch, and cried out: Holy Mary, who broughtest forth Christ who is God, have mercy upon me. And Peter turned and said to him: In the name of Him who was born of her, thy hands which have been taken away from thee, will be fixed on again. And immediately, at the word of Peter, the hands hanging by the couch of the Lady came, and were fixed on Jephonias. And he believed, and glorified Christ, God who had been born of her.
198.62.75.5/www1/ofm/san/TSmary1.html
 
dosdog said:
And the Lord remained beside her, saying: Behold, from the present time thy precious body will be transferred to paradise, and thy holy soul to the heavens to the treasures of my Father in exceeding brightness, where there is peace and joy of the holy angels,-and other things besides…And with the departure of her blameless soul the place was filled with perfume and ineffable light; and, behold, a voice out of the heaven was heard, saying: Blessed art thou among women.
Click to expand...
Hi

Kindly give a reference of the above quote, if it is in OTBible or from NTBible.

Thanks

The ultimate truth about Jesus is that he died in Kashmir, and his mother Mary according to some nearby at Murree, a hilly resort near Islamabad , Pakistan.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

Kindly give a reference of the above quote, if it is in OTBible or from NTBible.

Thanks

The ultimate truth about Jesus is that he died in Kashmir, and his mother Mary according to some nearby at Murree, a hilly resort near Islamabad , Pakistan.
Click to expand...
Oral Tradition in the New Testament
chnetwork.org/journals/sola/sola8.htm
scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html aish.com/literacy/concepts/The_Oral_Tradition.asp
It is a foundation of our faith to believe that God gave Moses an oral explanation of the Torah along with the written text. This oral tradition is now essentially preserved in the Talmud and Midrashim. Just as we depend on tradition for the accepted text, vocalization, and translation of the Torah, so must we depend on tradition for its interpretation. The Written Torah cannot be understood without the oral tradition. Hence, if anything, the Oral Torah is the more important of the two. Since the Written Torah appears largely defective unless supplemented by the oral tradition, a denial of the Oral Torah necessarily leads to the denial of the divine origin of the written text as well…

Similarly, such commandments as tefillin and tzitzit are found in the Torah, but no details are given, and they are assumed to be in the Oral Torah. Although observing Shabbat is one of the Ten Commandments, no details are given as to how it should be kept, and these are also in the unwritten tradition. God thus said, “You shall keep Shabbat holy, as I have commanded your fathers” (Jeremiah 17:22).

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul clearly commands us in this verse to obey oral apostolic tradition. He says stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, either by word of mouth or letter. This verse proves that for apostolic authority, oral and written communications are on par with each other. Protestants must find a verse that voids this commandment to obey oral tradition elsewhere in the Bible, or they are not abiding by the teachings of Scripture.

2 Thess. 2:15 - in fact, it was this apostolic tradition that allowed the Church to select the Bible canon (apostolicity was determined from tradition). Since all the apostles were deceased at the time the canon was decided, the Church had to rely on the apostolic tradition of their successors. Hence, the Bible is an apostolic tradition of the Catholic Church. This also proves that oral tradition did not cease with the death of the last apostle. Other examples of apostolic tradition include the teachings on the Blessed Trinity, the hypostatic union (Jesus had a divine and human nature in one person), the filioque (that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son), the assumption of Mary, and knowing that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew.

2 Thess. 3:6 - Paul again commands the faithful to live in accord with the tradition that they received from the apostles.
scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html
aish.com/literacy/concepts/The_Oral_Tradition.asp

198.62.75.5/www1/ofm/san/TSmarymn.html
 
40.png
paarsurrey:
All died here on this earth and since they were pious people
Click to expand...
Where are they buried?

If Jesus’ body is still on Earth then where is it? Why haven’t people tried to find it? (Including Muslims)

Is there any historical PROOF that Jesus visited India? Why don’t the Hindu’s mention something in their scriptures about this visit? Why isn’t there a shrine or monument erected in India (by Muslims) to commemorate this?

**In fact, on what basis do you say that Jesus was not crucified? **Even non-christians have mentioned that a holy man named Jesus was crucified by the Roman’s in Palestine.

**I’ve read your assertions for some time and I want PROOF.
**
Why would hundreds of people risk their lives and be willing to die for a belief that was totally fictional? Why would the apostles and Jesus’ closest friends be willing to die professing a faith that was a fallacy?

How can a religion that came 600 YEARS after Christianity claim that this whole religion is based on a lie? On what grounds?

**I want NON-ISLAMIC sources (from Jews, Hindu’s, Pagans etc) which PROVES that Jesus WAS NOT CRUCIFIED, and that he travelled to India. These sources have to be ancient and not from some NEW AGE guru or cult.
**
Personally, I think your beliefs lack any shred of historical evidence. They are total fabrications.

P.S If you avoid this question then we will no that there is NO historical evidence to support your claims. Why don’t you try and CONVINCE us that what you say is truth?
 
Dempsey1919 said:
Where are they buried?

If Jesus’ body is still on Earth then where is it? Why haven’t people tried to find it? (Including Muslims)

Is there any historical PROOF that Jesus visited India? Why don’t the Hindu’s mention something in their scriptures about this visit? Why isn’t there a shrine or monument erected in India (by Muslims) to commemorate this?

**In fact, on what basis do you say that Jesus was not crucified? **Even non-christians have mentioned that a holy man named Jesus was crucified by the Roman’s in Palestine.

**I’ve read your assertions for some time and I want PROOF.
**
Why would hundreds of people risk their lives and be willing to die for a belief that was totally fictional? Why would the apostles and Jesus’ closest friends be willing to die professing a faith that was a fallacy?

How can a religion that came 600 YEARS after Christianity claim that this whole religion is based on a lie? On what grounds?

**I want NON-ISLAMIC sources (from Jews, Hindu’s, Pagans etc) which PROVES that Jesus WAS NOT CRUCIFIED, and that he travelled to India. These sources have to be ancient and not from some NEW AGE guru or cult.
**
Personally, I think your beliefs lack any shred of historical evidence. They are total fabrications.

P.S If you avoid this question then we will no that there is NO historical evidence to support your claims. Why don’t you try and CONVINCE us that what you say is truth?
Click to expand...
Hi

You are a lovely person, so I will give you various documentry evidences; to start with kindly from view a BBC Documentry:

Did Jesus die on the Cross?
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1669658378154953060&q

Thanks

Please keep me reminding when you have seen/read one to give you another.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

You are a lovely person, so I will give you various documentry evidences; to start with kindly from view a BBC Documentry:

Did Jesus die on the Cross?
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1669658378154953060&q

Thanks

Please keep me reminding when you have seen/read one to give you another.
Click to expand...
Mohammed
In 632 he made his last pilgrimage to Mecca at the head of forty thousand followers, and soon after his return died of a violent fever in the sixty-third year of his age, the eleventh of the Hejira, and the year 633 of the Christian era.

newadvent.org/cathen/10424a.htm
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

Kindly give a reference of the above quote, if it is in OTBible or from NTBible.

Thanks

The ultimate truth about Jesus is that he died in Kashmir, and his mother Mary according to some nearby at Murree, a hilly resort near Islamabad , Pakistan.
Click to expand...
Hmm…your main prophet is prophet Mohammed who preached to kill by the sword and force conversion, why do we need to believe the ultimate truth by a religion that promotes peace through getting their own way.
 
JFonseka said:
Hmm…your main prophet is prophet Mohammed who preached to kill by the sword and force conversion, why do we need to believe the ultimate truth by a religion that promotes peace through getting their own way.
Click to expand...
Hi

Nobdy is converting you to any other religion, no compulsion, one may search for truth while remaining a Catholic. I think you agree with me.

Thanks

The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of peaceful and human loving Muhammad and his religion Islam and Islam of PromisedMessiahImamMahdi is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking moral and peaceful.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

Nobdy is converting you to any other religion, no compulsion, one may search for truth while remaining a Catholic. I think you agree with me.

Thanks

The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of peaceful and human loving Muhammad and his religion Islam and Islam of PromisedMessiahImamMahdi is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking moral and peaceful.
Click to expand...
Why would I attempt to seek the truth, when I know that the truth is Jesus Christ.

So you are telling me, information of Prophet Mohammed taking child brides, forcing others to convert to Islam, preaching infidels must be killed if they do not follow the laws of Islam are all lies? If so, who propagated these lies? Keep in mind, I lived in the middle east for 10 years, and not a day went by when the imam in the mosque would be saying the daily prayers or some sermon and I could hear it from my house, one day, he appeared to be particularly angry about something, even though I couldn’t understand what he was going on about, the helper in the house informed me that he was angry with the USA for going after Bin Laden and that infidels should be killed. Of course he must have said a lot more because it went on for a good hour or so.

And this is not the only thing, how about Saudi Arabia? Where others are not allowed to have their churches or temples? Is this peace? By not allowing other religions to have their own shrines or whatever? How about public execution in Saudi Arabia, don’t they declare this is the way to get rid of the evil, by executing rapists or murderers, chopping off fingers of thieves, the hangings in Iran of gays, stoning in Iraq of girls who get friendly with boys from different Muslim sects, isn’t Saudi the place that all muslims must pilgrim to? Yet the country preaches nothing but hatred and violence to sinners and other religions.

Yet you say the west is delusioned, how can we be delusioned when your Imams talk about death to america or the pope must be jailed for insulting mohammed, when he didn’t even insult mohammed. The imams always seem to quoting prophet mohammed in some way or the other.

These are all lies yes?
 
40.png
paarsurrey:
Hi

You are a lovely person, so I will give you various documentry evidences; to start with kindly from view a BBC Documentry:

Did Jesus die on the Cross?
video.google.com/videopla…378154953060&q

Thanks
Click to expand...
THIS WHOLE DOCUMENTARY IS PURE SPECULATION THAT IS PRESENTED AS TRUTH.

If you listen to the narrative then you will constantly hear phrases such as “some claim that if…” All of the information contained within this documentary is theory.

Here are some of the claims made:
Jesus didn’t die, he was resuscitated in the Tomb after the crucifiction.
Click to expand...
REALLY? I thought he was pierced by a lance to make sure that he was dead.
The concept of the Heavenly Second Coming with Jesus returning on the day of Judgement was only created after it became clear that he had not returned in that everyday sence.
Click to expand...
That sounds like opinion to me. Where’s the proof that this statement is real?
The Ascention does not actually appear in the original form of any of the gospels. The Ascention references were added 200 years after the events.
Click to expand...
This sounds like the old muslim claim that the Gospels are not the ‘true’ Gospels because they have been changed by Christians. Well this my rebuttal to this claim:
From: answering-islam.org/Bible/Text/wijngaards.html
Click to expand...
To study the New Testament writings, scientists have a wealth of material at their disposal. Of the Greek text (remember that the New Testament was written in Greek) there are no less than 4680 manuscripts. 68 of them are papyri, 241 majuscule parchments, 2533 minuscule parchments and 1838 lectionaries (collections of Scripture texts for reading on Sundays). Then there are more than 6000 manuscripts of ancient translations in such languages as Latin, Syriac, Coptic, Gothic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Georgian, Nubian Arabic, Persian and Slavonic. A third source for comparison are quotations of scriptural texts found with more than 220 Church Fathers and theologians.
Click to expand...
Some of these texts are very old. One of the papyri known as P52, contains fragments of St John’s Gospel. It has been dated as 130 AD, which means that this copy of the Gospel was written hardly forty years after the original. Another famous example is the Codex Sinaiticus, which was written in about 350 AD in Egypt. 347 of its leaves have been preserved which cover practically the whole New Testament.
Click to expand...
We can be absolutely sure that the text we possess is essentially identical to the original writings. Or, to put it in quantitative terms: **the small variations that have crept into the text over all these centuries affect only one and a half per cent of the text **(one of every sixty words); they rarely make any doctrinal difference.
Click to expand...
The documentary also claims that Jesus went on a journey to find the Lost Tribes of Israel:
WE CAN SPECULATE that if Jesus thought of himself as the Messiah, HE MIGHT have had it in mind that I’ve got to go and present myself to these dispersed brothers and sisters.
Click to expand...
The words in bold say it all. This is pure speculation and opinion passed off as fact.

And regarding the claim that he went to Kashmir, here is what I have to say:

People in Kashmir CLAIM to be the last tribes. So what. People in Britain claim to that the British are the lost tribes. No one takes them seriously so why should we believe the people of Kashmir?

These same people claim that Jesus, or Isa as they call him, went to Kashmir and presented himself to them. These people are blatantly Muslim, so of course they would suggest that Jesus went there. There is also a tomb that is supposed to be the final resting place of Jesus AND an Islamic holy man.

These people are Muslims. I asked you for NON MUSLIM evidence that Jesus went to Kashmir. For all we know, this is just a muslim fabrication to win converts.

And by the way, the carved footprints of Jesus in the ground are blatantly fake. Feet impressions do not look like that.

By the way, post all of your “proof” so that we can read it. Why are you posting one thing at a time. Are you struggling?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top