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Jimmy_B
Guest
I know it’s early but here’s a little something for my buddy RD. It’s ok for Christians to celebrate the birth of our Lord!
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Jimmy_B
Guest
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John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be. Where (I) am going you know the way."
Genesis 5:24 And he walked with God, and was seen no more: because God took him.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Henoch was translated that he should not see death: and he was not found because God had translated him. For before his translation he had testimony that he pleased God.
2 Kings 2:11 And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold, a fiery chariot and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose,
**1 **Thesslonians 4:17 (4:16) Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall rise again incorruptible. And we shall be changed.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death. But the grace of God, life everlasting in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple. And there were lightnings and voices and an earthquake and great hail.
Revelation 12:1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
What is the non-Catholic Christian response to the Catholic belief in the Assumption of St. Mary?
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John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be. Where (I) am going you know the way."
Genesis 5:24 And he walked with God, and was seen no more: because God took him.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Henoch was translated that he should not see death: and he was not found because God had translated him. For before his translation he had testimony that he pleased God.
2 Kings 2:11 And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold, a fiery chariot and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose,
**1 **Thesslonians 4:17 (4:16) Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall rise again incorruptible. And we shall be changed.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death. But the grace of God, life everlasting in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple. And there were lightnings and voices and an earthquake and great hail.
Revelation 12:1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
What is the non-Catholic Christian response to the Catholic belief in the Assumption of St. Mary?
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Mary communicates a vision that the world is passing away, not toward a new creation or a new world order, but toward the dissolution of an illusory chaos of suffering, death, and illegitimate domination. The Savior has come so that each soul might discover its own true spiritual nature, its “root” in the Good, and return to the place of eternal rest beyond the constraints of time, matter, and false morality.
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Rightlydivide
Guest
I prefer gift cards. I can shop online.I know it’s early but here’s a little something for my buddy RD. It’s ok for Christians to celebrate the birth of our Lord!
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Happy New Year as well Jimmy.
Who yelled at you, Gary?You’ll have to read the Secret Tradition of Mary then yell me what you think.
Jon
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Oh I’m so sorry about the typo, please forgive me.
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ERose
Guest
Epiphanius (d. 403) acknowledged that he knew nothing definite about it I am assuming that you got this from the Catholic Ency. This statement expresses ignorance not a definitive teaching.
What you are assuming is correct.
I just don’t get that from the entry. It speaks of only the tomb not the Assumption. So you have to do better than that.
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ERose
Guest
What about you explain away the feast date of 380AD in Antioch.
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SemperReformada
Guest
You may have already done this and I apologize for asking you to repeat yourself but could you provide a reference for the feast of the assumption being celebrated in 380 AD?
Even if the feast was celebrated as early as 380 AD there is still a substantial gap between the time of the apostles and any evidence of belief in the assumption. Is that significant? Maybe, mabe not but a large gap does exist.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
The first clue was Mary being resurrected directly into Heaven. Then theres the table Jesus built, Mary took to St Johns home after the Crucifixtion. Luke painted the Madonna on it with Crowns on Mary and Jesus? Then there 12:1 in Revelations. It just goes on and on. Really its a question of, do you want to believe?
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SemperReformada
Guest
Gary,
Thanks for your reply but I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you give some more information?
What in Revelations 12 makes you think Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven?
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GaryTaylor
Guest
On November 1, 1950, Pope Pius XII solemnly declared:
By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory
Roman Catholic theologians consider this declaration by Pius XII to be an ex cathedra use of Papal Infallibility.Although Pope Pius XII deliberately left open the question of whether Mary died before her Assumption, the more common teaching of the early Fathers is that she did.
In his August 15, 2004 homily given at Lourdes, Pope John Paul II quoted John 14:3 as one of the scriptural bases for understanding the dogma of the Assumption of Mary. In this verse, Jesus tells his disciples at the Last Supper, “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.” According to Catholic theology, Mary is the pledge of the fulfillment of Christ’s promise.
12:1 of the Bible is pretty much what happened at Fatima in 1917.
What makes you think none of this it true?
Coptic icon of the Dormition of Our LadyAlthough the Assumption (Latin: ***ūmptiō, “taken up”) was only relatively recently defined as infallible dogma by the Catholic Church, and in spite of a statement by Saint Epiphanius of Salamis in AD 377 that no one knew whether Mary had died or not,apocryphal accounts of the assumption of Mary into heaven have circulated since at least the 4th century. The Catholic Church itself interprets chapter 12 of the Book of Revelation as referring to it.
By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory
Roman Catholic theologians consider this declaration by Pius XII to be an ex cathedra use of Papal Infallibility.Although Pope Pius XII deliberately left open the question of whether Mary died before her Assumption, the more common teaching of the early Fathers is that she did.
In his August 15, 2004 homily given at Lourdes, Pope John Paul II quoted John 14:3 as one of the scriptural bases for understanding the dogma of the Assumption of Mary. In this verse, Jesus tells his disciples at the Last Supper, “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.” According to Catholic theology, Mary is the pledge of the fulfillment of Christ’s promise.
12:1 of the Bible is pretty much what happened at Fatima in 1917.
What makes you think none of this it true?
Coptic icon of the Dormition of Our LadyAlthough the Assumption (Latin: ***ūmptiō, “taken up”) was only relatively recently defined as infallible dogma by the Catholic Church, and in spite of a statement by Saint Epiphanius of Salamis in AD 377 that no one knew whether Mary had died or not,apocryphal accounts of the assumption of Mary into heaven have circulated since at least the 4th century. The Catholic Church itself interprets chapter 12 of the Book of Revelation as referring to it.
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absitinvidia
Guest
John refers in Rev 6:9 to souls, but in 12:1 to the woman, not just her soul. The woman in 12:1 is identified as Mary by the Catholic Church. The dragon wants to devour her child, who is “destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.” The child is identified as Christ, therefore his mother is Mary. Rev 12:1 follows on from 11:19, which talks about the ark of God’s covenant being seen in the temple in heaven. Mary is called the Ark of the New Covenant, because she bore Jesus, the Word of God and the Bread of Life in her womb, like the ark of the covenant in the Old Testament contained the written word of God (10 commandments) and bread from heaven (manna). First John sees the ark, and then there is a great storm or whatever and suddenly he sees Mary. Mary is also called the Mother of the Church, and in Rev 12, the dragon “went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.” That would be the Church.
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SemperReformada
Guest
What in Reverlations 12 makes you think Mary was assumed
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GaryTaylor
Guest
You highlighted it:shrug:
The Earliest fresco of the Virgin Mary, in the Catacomb of Priscilla from the middle of the second centuryEarly veneration of the Blessed Virgin is documented in Roman Catacombs, where Christians were hiding in times of persecution and which became burial grounds after Christianity was accepted as a religion. In the catacombs paintings show the Blessed Virgin holding the Christ Child. More unusual and indicating the burial ground of Saint Peter excavations in the crypt of St Peter’s Basilica discovered a very early fresco of Mary together with Saint Peter[15] The Roman Priscilla catacombs depict the oldest Marian paintings from the middle of the second century Mary is shown with Jesus on her lap, a standing man with tunic left hand a book right hand a star over his head symbol of messiahs. Priscilla also has a depiction of the annunciation.
Now Mary with Jesus as Messiah is here dated to the middle of the second century. Do ya reallly believe its a stretch considering no mass comminication in this period?
The difficulty in dating the icon stems from the fact that the original image was painted over after being badly damaged by Hussite raiders in 1430. Medieval restorers unfamiliar with the encaustic method found that the paints they applied to the damaged areas “simply sloughed off the image” according to the medieval chronicler Risinius, and their solution was to erase the original image and to repaint it on the original panel,
which was believed to be holy because of its legendary origin as a table top from the home of the Holy Family. Painted by Luke on a table built by Jesus
The painting displays a traditional composition well-known in the icons of Eastern Orthodoxy. The Virgin Mary is shown as the “Hodegetria” (“One Who Shows the Way”). In it the Virgin directs attention away from herself, gesturing with her right hand toward Jesus as the source of salvation. In turn, the child extends his right hand toward the viewer in blessing while holding a book of gospels in his left hand. The icon shows the Madonna in fleur de lys robes. Much of what Luke wrote in Scripture is said to have come from these conversations with Mary as he painted and conversed with her about the life of Christ. Its really no wonder with the humility of mary that little is written about her. I’m sure she wanted it just this way.
I guess it comes down to what “you believe”?
The Earliest fresco of the Virgin Mary, in the Catacomb of Priscilla from the middle of the second centuryEarly veneration of the Blessed Virgin is documented in Roman Catacombs, where Christians were hiding in times of persecution and which became burial grounds after Christianity was accepted as a religion. In the catacombs paintings show the Blessed Virgin holding the Christ Child. More unusual and indicating the burial ground of Saint Peter excavations in the crypt of St Peter’s Basilica discovered a very early fresco of Mary together with Saint Peter[15] The Roman Priscilla catacombs depict the oldest Marian paintings from the middle of the second century Mary is shown with Jesus on her lap, a standing man with tunic left hand a book right hand a star over his head symbol of messiahs. Priscilla also has a depiction of the annunciation.
Now Mary with Jesus as Messiah is here dated to the middle of the second century. Do ya reallly believe its a stretch considering no mass comminication in this period?
The difficulty in dating the icon stems from the fact that the original image was painted over after being badly damaged by Hussite raiders in 1430. Medieval restorers unfamiliar with the encaustic method found that the paints they applied to the damaged areas “simply sloughed off the image” according to the medieval chronicler Risinius, and their solution was to erase the original image and to repaint it on the original panel,
which was believed to be holy because of its legendary origin as a table top from the home of the Holy Family. Painted by Luke on a table built by Jesus
The painting displays a traditional composition well-known in the icons of Eastern Orthodoxy. The Virgin Mary is shown as the “Hodegetria” (“One Who Shows the Way”). In it the Virgin directs attention away from herself, gesturing with her right hand toward Jesus as the source of salvation. In turn, the child extends his right hand toward the viewer in blessing while holding a book of gospels in his left hand. The icon shows the Madonna in fleur de lys robes. Much of what Luke wrote in Scripture is said to have come from these conversations with Mary as he painted and conversed with her about the life of Christ. Its really no wonder with the humility of mary that little is written about her. I’m sure she wanted it just this way.
I guess it comes down to what “you believe”?
S
SemperReformada
Guest
First, with regards to the arc typology, interesting though that kind of study is…there are no rules and one can read all sorts of things into scripture following that logic.
Secondly, there are other people described in the book of Revelations as being physically in heaven but yet your church hasn’t seen fit to declare they were assumed body and soul into heaven.
I believe (from memory) there are others described physically as being in heaven too but just one example should illustrate my point.
If you believe that Revelations 12 means that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven why not accept the others which are described as physically being assumed in heaven too? So even if the woman is Mary it does not ipso facto prove Mary’s body was assumed into heaven. We have the one verse (or few verses) in Revelations which Catholic apologists sometimes use to prove Mary’s body was assumed into heaven but that book uses a lot of imagery. So much imagery that it doesn’t sound very convincing…at least not to me.
Thanks for your response.
S
SemperReformada
Guest
I only have moment to respond right now but yes, at the end of the day it comes down to what I/you believe. Some believe the RCC is infallible…others don’t.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Heres Fatima 1917 recorded…
Apocalypse 12:1- “And a great sign appeared in Heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”
Are we to believe that the Masonic newspaper of Lisbon had Apocalypse 12:1 in mind when publishing this article shortly after the solar prodigy in 1917? Were the anti-clericals considering the possibility that Our Lady’s appearance constituted the woman clothed with the sun and the “sign of Heaven” described in the Bible? Of course not; not even Catholics at that time had connected Fatima with the woman clothed with the sun, let alone the anti-clericals who didn’t even believe in Sacred Scripture or probably didn’t even know about the prophecy in Apoc. 12:1! This headline, therefore, is an unknowing confirmation, by a public and anti-Catholic source, that Our Lady of Fatima and her miracle on Oct. 13 were indeed the sign prophesied in Apocalypse 12:1!
It’s almost as if one were to ask God the question: Lord, how will we know when the great “sign of heaven,” which you predicted in Apocalypse 12:1, will occur? And the Lord responded: just read the headline in the Masonic newspaper, for when this sign will occur it will be reported even in it.
This stunning fact not only serves to confirm that Our Lady of Fatima is the woman clothed with the sun of Apoc. 12:1, but also further confirms the authenticity of the Catholic Faith and Sacred Scripture.
Therefore, to finally round out our point about Fatima and its relevance to what has happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican II, we can say: since Fatima was the sign prophesied in Apoc. 12:1, this means that we are in the Apocalyptic era, the last days of the world.
And so it would seem. You could go on and on about all this. Popes visiting Fatima and direct referrences to 12:1 or Revalations. Its all out here.
Mary is a Blessing, that not all receive. I understand this today. I accept this today. If you choose to really gain a better perspective of Mary. Read St Louis de Montforts “Secret of Mary”. Its a fast read, its on-line and you could read now if you chose, for free.
God Bless. GT
Apocalypse 12:1- “And a great sign appeared in Heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”
Are we to believe that the Masonic newspaper of Lisbon had Apocalypse 12:1 in mind when publishing this article shortly after the solar prodigy in 1917? Were the anti-clericals considering the possibility that Our Lady’s appearance constituted the woman clothed with the sun and the “sign of Heaven” described in the Bible? Of course not; not even Catholics at that time had connected Fatima with the woman clothed with the sun, let alone the anti-clericals who didn’t even believe in Sacred Scripture or probably didn’t even know about the prophecy in Apoc. 12:1! This headline, therefore, is an unknowing confirmation, by a public and anti-Catholic source, that Our Lady of Fatima and her miracle on Oct. 13 were indeed the sign prophesied in Apocalypse 12:1!
It’s almost as if one were to ask God the question: Lord, how will we know when the great “sign of heaven,” which you predicted in Apocalypse 12:1, will occur? And the Lord responded: just read the headline in the Masonic newspaper, for when this sign will occur it will be reported even in it.
This stunning fact not only serves to confirm that Our Lady of Fatima is the woman clothed with the sun of Apoc. 12:1, but also further confirms the authenticity of the Catholic Faith and Sacred Scripture.
Therefore, to finally round out our point about Fatima and its relevance to what has happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican II, we can say: since Fatima was the sign prophesied in Apoc. 12:1, this means that we are in the Apocalyptic era, the last days of the world.
And so it would seem. You could go on and on about all this. Popes visiting Fatima and direct referrences to 12:1 or Revalations. Its all out here.
Mary is a Blessing, that not all receive. I understand this today. I accept this today. If you choose to really gain a better perspective of Mary. Read St Louis de Montforts “Secret of Mary”. Its a fast read, its on-line and you could read now if you chose, for free.
God Bless. GT
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absitinvidia
Guest
SemperReformada=
You asked what about Rev 12 makes us think Mary was assumed into heaven. You got an answer.
As for the others mentioned I’m not saying they weren’t assumed. But maybe, since they’re not even identified, it’s not even an issue.
You asked what about Rev 12 makes us think Mary was assumed into heaven. You got an answer.
As for the others mentioned I’m not saying they weren’t assumed. But maybe, since they’re not even identified, it’s not even an issue.
S
SemperReformada
Guest
To be fair, the woman isn’t identified either.
Perhaps it is Mary but if I remember correctly it was awhile before any of the church fathers identified the woman in Rev. 12 as being Mary. Maybe I am wrong on this and I am sure one of the Catholic posters will correct me if I am.
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