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Ailina
Guest
What is the difference? Also, when and where did the doctrine come from, that states Mary, mother of Jesus, was assumed into Heaven, and crowned queen? How would we know this?
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Cranch
Guest
From Catholic Answers:Some people think Catholics believe Mary “ascended” into heaven. That’s not correct. Christ, by his own power, ascended into heaven. Mary was assumed or taken up into heaven by God. She didn’t do it under her own power.
It is commonly believed that Mary died but that her incorrupt body was assumed into heaven. The discourse linked above talks of the negative historical proof of Mary’s assumption:Cities vied for the title of the last resting place of the most famous saints. In the early Christian centuries relics of saints were zealously guarded and highly prized.
…why did no city claim the bones of Mary? Apparently because there weren’t any bones to claim, and people knew it. Here was Mary, certainly the most privileged of all the saints, certainly the most saintly, but we have no record of her bodily remains being venerated anywhere.
Although declared divinely-revealed dogma only in 1950, documentation of belief in the Assumption dates to at least the 5th century, as reflected in this excerpt from EWTN:
At the Council of Chalcedon in 451, when bishops from throughout the Mediterranean world gathered in Constantinople, Emperor Marcian asked the Patriarch of Jerusalem to bring the relics of Mary to Constantinople to be enshrined in the capitol. The patriarch explained to the emperor that there were no relics of Mary in Jerusalem, that “Mary had died in the presence of the apostles; but her tomb, when opened later . . . was found empty and so the apostles concluded that the body was taken up into heaven.”
Finally, “how would we know this?” It is enough that the Church teaches it. Back to Catholic Answers:
The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world (John 14:26, 16:13). The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a guarantee that it is true (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15).
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kepha1
Guest
Jesus ascended into heaven by his own power.
Mary was assumed into heaven by the power of God.
We know the Assumption is true because the Church tells us it’s true. The doctrine of the Assumption sets the scriptures off like fireworks. Without the Assumption, one is left just reading the package.
Mary was assumed into heaven by the power of God.
We know the Assumption is true because the Church tells us it’s true. The doctrine of the Assumption sets the scriptures off like fireworks. Without the Assumption, one is left just reading the package.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Assumption vs. Ascension? Who does the lifting?
One ascends on their own power.
One is assumed by others.
The assumption was a part of early Catholic tradition. When studying Mary’s role as the Ark of the New Covenant (a google search on CAF will provide information on it - it’s fascinating!!!), one can see how the doctrine became understood.
One ascends on their own power.
One is assumed by others.
The assumption was a part of early Catholic tradition. When studying Mary’s role as the Ark of the New Covenant (a google search on CAF will provide information on it - it’s fascinating!!!), one can see how the doctrine became understood.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Ancient Traditions of the Virgin Mary’s Dormition and Assumption
Shoemaker, Stephen J. ,
oxfordscholarship.com/oso/public/content/religion/9780199250752/toc.html
Shoemaker, Stephen J. ,
oxfordscholarship.com/oso/public/content/religion/9780199250752/toc.html
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japhy
Guest
As for where the dogma came from, consider reading the document that defined the dogma: Munificentissimus Deus of Pope Pius XII, from 1950. Read it, notice the footnotes.
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slindo
Guest
Assumption is very Biblical. Every Christian who dies is taken to heaven and that’s what Assumption is.
Even living people can be assumed into heaven. Enoch and Elijah were translated into heaven (Heb 11:5.) Paul mentions someone who got “caught up to Third Heaven” (2 Cor 12:2.)
Mary is Queen of Heaven for a variety of reasons. For starters, she is the only person in heaven who isn’t saved by Jesus’ Blood. Mary doesn’t need salvation because she didn’t sin (i.e. she is immaculate.) This qualifies her to be Queen.
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quasimodo
Guest
Not true! She was saved from sin by the eternal nature of Christ’s sacrifice. She had a Savior and a Redeemer - her Son.
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japhy
Guest
That’s not what the Church teaches nor what the Bible records. And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior…” (Luke 1:46-47)
Mary was only immaculate because of a most special grace bestowed on her at the moment of her conception: she did, indeed, need to be saved from original sin, and God saved her at the moment of her conception.
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slindo
Guest
David had Uriah killed in order to marry Bathsheba. Noah got drunk. Abraham lied to Pharaoh about the identity of his wife. Moses killed a man. Solomon was turned away from God by strange wives. Peter smote a man’s ear at Jesus’’ arrest. Judas betrayed Jesus. Paul persecuted Christians. The list goes on and on.
Mary is different. She is sinless. No verse in the Bible records Mary sinning or repenting. She calls God her Savior in the Magnificat, but she doesn’t say Christ is her Savior, only Jehovah (who created her.)
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slindo
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Mary said God was her Savior, not Christ. Mary is saved by Jehovah, who gave her life to begin with.
Also, Mary is saved indirectly by Jesus Christ in that the wrath of God would have been imputed on her if Christ did not pay the full penalty for sin. She would have died for our sins like sinless Christ and like we ourselves would have died for our sins (even though she didn’t actually sin.) In that sense Jesus saved her, but the argument is theologically hideous. Especially since she witnesses her Son’s death on the Cross and suffers His loss in every imaginable way. She is Co-Victim with Christ, not Co-Redeemed with us.
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davidv
Guest
This is what the Cathechism has to say about Mary’s need for a Savior.
See underlined part. Please do not misrepresent Church teaching on this matter.
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japhy
Guest
No one here is denying Mary’s sinlessness; but to attribute her salvation to “God” and not to Christ is to be walking a fine line. Is Jesus the Savior of the human race or not?
Here’s what the Catechism says on the matter:
491. Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God, [Luke 1:28] was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. [Pius IX, *Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803.]
492. The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son". Lumen Gentium, nn. 53, 56] The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”. [Cf. Eph 1:3-4]
492. The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son". Lumen Gentium, nn. 53, 56] The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”. [Cf. Eph 1:3-4]
Catholics do not believe in “penal substitution”: that is, Christ did not pay the full penalty for sin, because if he did, he would be in Hell for eternity. Christ’s sacrifice was perfect, and it is that perfect sacrifice that is perpetuated in the Mass, as Jesus is continually making intercession for us in Heaven (cf. Heb 7:25). He does not offer himself repeatedly, but once for all (cf. Heb 9:25-26), once for all time (cf. Heb 10:12).
Anyway, where I’m going with this is, Mary was redeemed by the merits of her son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at the very moment of her conception.
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slindo
Guest
Mary indeed was preserved from the stain of Original Sin by the Savior of the human race. This statement does not imply that She committed Original Sin, only that She was preserved from its stain (i.e. consequences.)
When Jesus died for the sins of humanity, He preserved humanity from God’s wrath which was the consequence of Original Sin. God’s wrath would have been visited on sinless Mary as well as on sinful Peter (the Church.) Jesus’ death took away sin and death from both Peter who sins and Mary who doesn’t.
Mary is Co-Victim with her Son, not Co-Redeemed with Peter (the Church.)
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mangy_dog
Guest
Jehovah!!?..you can’t even get God’s Holy Name correct!
Slindo, Slindo, Slindo! Listen - Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was super-abundant. Meaning, because it was done by a Divine Being (the creator of heaven and earth and of all that is seen and unseen), it was once for all - katolikos! - universal!
Mary’s salvation by her Saviour Jesus Christ, was pre-emptive. Mary was the only one to have that priviledge by virtue of Her Divine Maternity and in light of Christ’s virtues. Jesus death on the cross has an eternal quality.
His blood was shed for all… before, during and after His crucifixion.
Listen to the advice of the people on this thread, their knowledge is far beyond my own.
They will clarify for you some of the finer aspects of the Theotokos.
But please,…be careful when speaking about the Immaculate, Perpetual Virgin Mother of God.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum
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MH84
Guest
Serious question:
Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus ascended into heaven by His own power?
What I mean is for instance, Acts 1:9 says this:
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
This verse doesnt say He ascended by His own power, but that He was “taken up”.
Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus ascended into heaven by His own power?
What I mean is for instance, Acts 1:9 says this:
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
This verse doesnt say He ascended by His own power, but that He was “taken up”.
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japhy
Guest
That is a very good question.
Perhaps because all power/authority in heaven and on earth had been given to him (cf. Matthew 28:18), and so his Ascension was not an act of the Father, but of the Son who has “come into his own”, so to speak.
The Catholic Encyclopedia doesn’t really state why it is believed it was of his own power.
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mangy_dog
Guest
The church indicates and teaches that Jesus Christ ascended into heaven. This “by His own power” is a further clarification to those who would deny or cast doubt on Christ’s Divinity.
Jesus Christ being God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God…and One in being with the Father - would have the power in His own nature to ascend into heaven.
Fortunately we have the Magisterium of the church, guided by the Holy Spirit so that, when we read that verse we don’t make the mistake of thinking that “the power of the cloud” hid Him from their view.
When in doubt…go to the catechism of the Catholic church.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
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MH84
Guest
I know what you are trying to say. But in this particular situation (Jesus’ ascension) we are putting the Church’s teachings into the scriptures instead of the other way around. Otherwise, arent we saying that we believe in something the apostles didnt?
Anyway, who says that God the Son had to ascend Himself into Heaven. This isnt an argument about Christ’s divinity. It doesnt matter if He had the power to ascend into Heaven Himself or not.
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MH84
Guest
What if the apostles believed that the ascension of Jesus and the assumption of Mary were by the same process (God taking them up to heaven), so to speak, but just at different times? Is that a possibility?
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